Chicago Women trying to become Deacon

[TheRealJuliane]

Thank you. I don’t think having women deacons are on par with homosexual priests in the Episcopalian church.

The Episcopal Church ordains women as priests. That’s what the poster was referring to, not homosexuals. Their deacons and priest can also marry.

 

[PennyinCanada]

We are all called to be saints, live the gospel, and die to oneself. Is this not enough of a challenge? St Francis did not feel worthy to be ordained and yet he was blessed with the stigmata and an order came from his example. Ordination promises none of these things.

 

[adrift]

O Eternal God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Creator of man and of woman, who replenished with the Spirit Miriam, and Deborah, and Anna, and Huldah; who did not disdain that your only-begotten Son should be born of a woman; who also in the tabernacle of the testimony, and in the temple, did ordain women to be keepers of your holy gates - look down now upon this your servant who is to be ordained to the office of a deaconess, and grant her your Holy Spirit, that she may worthily discharge the work which is committed to her to your glory, and the praise of your Christ, with whom glory and adoration be to you and the Holy Spirit for ever. Amen."

-Apostolic Constitutions, No. 8 (late fourth century)

Interesting. Nice to learn. I have a question it seems this wasn’t accepted by the Pope. Is that true?

 

[In_Spiration]

I feel a call to the Church to take a greater role but I don’t want to be a nun. Deacons have this option.

Your (highly sophistical) posting history and the uncharitable way you handle any criticism of your agenda would suggest that the Church will be better off if you take a lesser role. We need fewer liberal activists trying to change and obfuscate Catholic Tradition, and you are clearly (based, again, on your history at CAF) an activist with a severely limited scope of concerns.

(Don’t you just love when people rhetorically undermine your opinions by a critical appeal to character or a manipulative twist of fashionable sentiment? If not, maybe you ought to stop doing that yourself.)

 

[Lochias]

I feel a call to the Church to take a greater role but I don’t want to be a nun. Deacons have this option.

In my local Franciscan fraternity, all of the offices are held by women. My Formation Director is the one that shows newbies how to live as Francis lived.

There are all kinds of options out there without indirectly slandering the Pope.

 

[NeedImprovement]

There’s an informative sketch on the history of “deaconesses” in the Church which begins by reiterating what the CDF says more recently on the ordination of women . It can be read at the following link :

ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/AROSEBY.TXT

And I think it has value in lending an overall understanding of the truer meaning of certain things which some of us might refer to a little too loosely when discussing this matter. It gives some good background on the topic. Here are a couple of excerpts :

From: A Rose By Any Other Name,

The Ordination of Women to the Diaconate,

by David L. Alexander

The Question of Ordination

At the heart of the matter of a female diaconate is the question of whether the
deaconess was ordained. The teaching of the Church notwithstanding, the term appears
to have been applied to deaconesses at the height of their service, and proponents of the
ordination of women would be quick to point this out.

At this time, a distinction would arise between ordination (in Greek, , for
bishops, priests, deacons and deaconesses) and institution (, for the lesser
orders). The Ecumenical Council of Nicea in 313 held that deaconesses need not
necessarily have been ordained, and the did not provide a ritual for it. On
the other hand, the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon in 451 expressly provided for a
ceremony of the laying on of hands and ordination for them. This is found in the
, as well as later Church orders, since by the end of the fourth
century, the term was used almost exclusively in the case of the
deaconess. . .

. . . We also know that, whatever variations in the practice or status of the female diaconate,
women could not aspire to the priesthood. As important as the deaconess was to the
service of the Church, the were mindful of the distinctions
from their male counterparts. It is here that the parameters of diaconal service by
women could not be clearer: “A deaconess does not bless, nor perform anything
belonging to the office of presbyters or deacons, but only is to keep the doors and to
minister to the presbyters in the baptizing of women on account of decency.” The
prayers of ordination for a deacon and deaconess usually differed slightly, one from
the other; that of the deacon referring to the example of the Protomartyr Stephen, while
that of the deaconess referring to Phoebe of Cenchrae. The prayers of the former would
also include a petition that the recipient may go on to the priesthood and episcopacy.

 

[Faithdancer]

If you ordain a woman a deacon you make as well have a woman Pope. That’s where it leads to, as the protestants have found out.

One good thing: their ‘ordaining’ homosexuals and women lets orthodox Catholics know the jig is up with pseudo-ecumenism. We’re not dealing with Christians any more.

They were heretics in the 1500’s, and they are heretics now. Nothing has changed.

 

[jwinch2]

That is quite insulting to your Catholic sister in Christ.

Re-introducing the deaconess to the Catholic Church has nothing to do with liberlism. I think it would be a great benefit.

Deaconesses as you describe them did not exist in the Catholic Church.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=714987

CONCILIUM NICAENUM I
CANON XIX.
CONCERNING the Paulianists who have flown for refuge to the Catholic Church, it has been decreed that they must by all means be rebaptized; and if any of them who in past time have been numbered among their clergy should be found blameless and without reproach, let them be rebaptized and ordained by the Bishop of the Catholic Church; but if the examination should discover them to be unfit, they ought to be deposed. Likewise in the case of their deaconesses, and generally in the case of those who have been enrolled among their clergy, let the same form be observed. And we mean by deaconesses such as have assumed the habit, but who, since they have no imposition of hands, are to be numbered only among the laity.

Apostolic Constitutions:
“A deaconess does not bless, but neither does she perform anything else that is done by presbyters [priests] and deacons, but she guards the doors and greatly assists the presbyters, for the sake of decorum, when they are baptizing women” (ibid., 8:28).

GENERAL DECREE OF THE
CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH:
Automatic excommunication for “ordination” of women
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

General Decree

On the delict of attempted sacred ordination of a woman

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in virtue of the special faculty granted to it by the Supreme Authority of the Church (cf. Can. 30, Code of Canon Law), in order to safeguard the nature and validity of the sacrament of Holy Orders, decreed, in the Ordinary Session of December 19, 2007:

In accordance with what is disposed by Can. 1378 of the Code of Canon Law, he who shall have attempted to confer holy orders on a woman, as well as the woman who may have attempted to receive Holy Orders, incurs in a latae sententiae excommunication, reserved to the Apostolic See.

If he who shall have attempted to confer Holy Orders on a woman or if the woman who shall have attempted to received Holy Orders is a faithful bound to the Code of Canons of the Oriental Churches, he is to be punished with the major excommunication, whose remission remains reserved to the Apostolic See, in accordance with can. 1443 of the same Code (cf. can. 1423, Code of Canons of the Oriental Churches).

The present decree enters in force immediately after its publication in L’Osservatore Romano.

William Cardinal Levada
Prefect

Angelo Amato, s.d.b.
Titular Archbishop of Sila
Secretary

ARTICLE 6
THE SACRAMENT OF HOLY ORDERS

VI. WHO CAN RECEIVE THIS SACRAMENT?

1577 "Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination."66 The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry.67 The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.68

Can. 1024 A baptized male alone receives sacred ordination validly.

 

[Mickey]

. . We also know that, whatever variations in the practice or status of the female diaconate,
women could not aspire to the priesthood. As important as the deaconess was to the
service of the Church, the were mindful of the distinctions
from their male counterparts. It is here that the parameters of diaconal service by
women could not be clearer: “A deaconess does not bless, nor perform anything
belonging to the office of presbyters or deacons, but only is to keep the doors and to
minister to the presbyters in the baptizing of women on account of decency.” The
prayers of ordination for a deacon and deaconess usually differed slightly, one from
the other; that of the deacon referring to the example of the Protomartyr Stephen, while
that of the deaconess referring to Phoebe of Cenchrae. The prayers of the former would
also include a petition that the recipient may go on to the priesthood and episcopacy.

Yes.

 

[Mickey]

Deaconesses as you describe them did not exist in the Catholic Church.

They existed in the early Church exactly as I have described them.

There is no need to feel threatened. They never aspired…or conspired to the priesthood. It was not a possibility.

 

[jwinch2]

They existed in the early Church exactly as I have described them.

No, they did not. They did not receive the sacrament of holy orders.

 

[Mickey]

They did not receive the sacrament of holy orders.

I never said they did…eh? There was a laying on of hands…and some referred to it as a unique type of ordination. But I never referred to it as the Mystery of Holy Orders. Now stop putting words in my mouth. The Deaconess served a real purpose in the early Church. And she could serve that purpose again, In fact, some Holy Orthodox Churches have revisted the Deaconess. But she was never ordained in the way of the male Deacon or presbyter.

 

[jwinch2]

I never said they did…eh? There was a laying on of hands…and some referred to it as a unique type of ordination. But I never referred to it as the Mystery of Holy Orders. Now stop putting words in my mouth.

Whether there was a laying on of hands is up for debate. The Nicean Council suggests otherswise: CONCERNING the Paulianists who have flown for refuge to the Catholic Church, it has been decreed that they must by all means be rebaptized; and if any of them who in past time have been numbered among their clergy should be found blameless and without reproach, let them be rebaptized and ordained by the Bishop of the Catholic Church; but if the examination should discover them to be unfit, they ought to be deposed. Likewise in the case of their deaconesses, and generally in the case of those who have been enrolled among their clergy, let the same form be observed. And we mean by deaconesses such as have assumed the habit, but who, since they have no imposition of hands are to be numbered only among the laity.

The Deaconess served a real purpose in the early Church. And she could serve that purpose again, In fact, some Holy Orthodox Churches have revisted the Deaconess. But she was never ordained in the way of the male Deacon or presbyter.

If the Orthodox Church wishes to have them, that is their decision and I leave it to them. This thread is about the Catholic church and since we aren’t exactly baptizing in the nude these days, they wouldn’t serve any purpose at all.

 

[jwinch2]

I feel a call to the Church to take a greater role but I don’t want to be a nun. Deacons have this option.

I applaud this desire.

I respectfully suggest you consider volunteering to be on the parish council, teach RCIA, be a sponsor for confirmation, volunteer for prison ministry, serve as a lector, join the choir, work in a food kitchen, go on mission trips, get involved in the pro-life movement, join the Catholic Daughters, seek out a lay fraternity/third order which appeals to you spiritually, help out with campus ministry, and so on and so forth.

There are hundreds of ways for you to serve the Church without the sacrament of Holy Orders.

 

[edwest2]

Here’s a good answer:

ncregister.com/site/article/vatican_letter_censures_women_deacon_courses/

Peace,
Ed

 

[jwinch2]

Here’s a good answer:

ncregister.com/site/article/vatican_letter_censures_women_deacon_courses/

Peace,
Ed

Informative article. Thanks for sharing it.

 

[jwinch2]

Actually, he said that there was a laying on of hands. The Council of Nicea suggests that this may be incorrect.

Deaconesses served rather more functions than simply assisting at nude baptisms.

Such as, and evidence?

 

[Mickey]

Yes. And there are more.

 

[Mickey]

Ah…I love the New Martyrs.

Yes…I know that Holy Orthodoxy is much more open to the idea of re-instituting the Deaconess…and yes you are correct…the Greeks are taking the lead here.

And I am certainly the last one to suggest the idea of women priests…it is against Holy Tradition.

And lastly…we seem to be agreeing about much more as of late.

 

[jwinch2]

Women can do all of those things right now, there is no need to have deaconesses for those things to occur. However, if you have it, I would like to see the evidence that deaconesses did do those things in Apostolic or early Christian times. I’m not necessarily doubting you, but there have been dozens of these threads and no one has ever shown such material.

The Hagia Sophia contained a special area set aside for deaconesses it should noted.

I don’t doubt their existence. I am unsure of their role and do doubt the need for them or even the possibility for them today.