Chicago Women trying to become Deacon

[Corki]

I agree too. And I do think the matter is open just like this Cardinal said. Women already perform many functions in the Mass. One can say that titles too are meaningless in God’s eyes.

Women do perform functions at Mass. Deaconesses had no liturgical function. If the Church were to reinstate deaconesses, women in that position would have less functions at Mass. That’s not to say that *other *women couldn’t assist at Mass as readers, cantors, EMHCs, as they do now, but being a deaconess would not mean more to do at Mass. The duties of a deaconess are more about ministering to others outside of Mass - especially to other women.

 

[edwest2]

Here’s the official story:

ncregister.com/site/article/vatican_letter_censures_women_deacon_courses/

Peace,
Ed

 

[RobbyS]

And their roles were very different than the ordained deacons. This group says they want to return to the ancient tradition but then says things like

Deaconesses didn’t have preaching authority, in fact they had no liturgical role at all. The ancient role was to help other women in a more segregated society.

Women today have many more outlets for their opinions than they did fifty years ago. They can ever distribute communion. They can address the church on matters of important and even lecture inside the Church. They don’t need to be ordained.

 

[Yerusalyim]

I believe the Orthodox church also allows its priests to marry.

And permanent deacons (at least in the Roman Catholic tradition) are allowed to marry.

In both the Orthodox churches and the Catholic church men can be ordained after they marry. If a man is unmarried before ordination then no marriage can validly take place…for either the priesthood or diaconate.

I personally favor the ordination of married men to the priesthood…and it is a discipline of the Church, not a doctrine…but the church will make that decision…not me.

 

[Church_Man]

According to Dr. Gary Macy, PhD, a Professor of Theology and a historian at Santa Clara University:

1. Women were ordained as deacons by the bishop within the santurary with the laying on of hands.
2. St. Paul mentions women deacons. “Phoebe, a deacon of the church at Cenchreae… help her in whatever she may require from you.” (Romans 16:1-2)
3. St. Paul in 1 Timothy 3:8-11 speaks about women deacons. **St. John Chrysostom **responded: “Some say that he (Paul) is talking about women in general, but that cannot be… But rather, he is speaking of those women who hold the rank of deacon.”
4. Dr. Macy makes a destinction between Deacon and the Priesthood. Rome has come out against the ordination of women as PRIESTS. Nothing has come out of Rome against the ordination of women as DEACONS.
5. According to historical records Popes Benedict VIII (1018), John XIX (1025) and Leo IX (1049) gave bishops the power to ordain women as deacons.
6. We even have the ritual, in Greek, with the prayers that were said for the ordination of women deacons.
7. Women were ordained as Deacons, celebrated at the altar with the bishop, hands were laid upon them, anointed with chrism by the bishop, and a stole was placed on their neck. They also read the Gospel and preached.
8. At the Council of Chalcedon of 451 required women deacons to be forty years of age and celibate. earlychurchtexts.com/public/chalcedon_canons.htm - Check canon 15.

As far as we know, there were women deacons in the Church till the 12th century.

 

[Tampa_Dave]

Well that’s interesting.

To be honest. I trust the Church to do the right thing- that’s why I’m Catholic.

There are things I disagree with personally- like the Church’s stand on Contraception- but I still practice what the Church teaches. It’s about being obedient for me.

If the Church says women can’t be deacons- I’m fine with that.
If the Church says they can- well then OK.

I don’t have a big hat so I don’t get a vote. I’m cool with that.

I think it’s strange to read posts from some who claim to be the most “orthodox” or “hard-core Catholics” expressing strong opinions on what the Bishops and Pope “need to do.” In this way the super “traditionalists” begin to behave like the “dissidents” they so decry.

 

[Captain_America]

Of course you are. I’m sure God uses her in wonderful ways in your church. I took a stand 20 years ago when I was attending a church affiliated with Church of God. I found out b/t Sunday and the service that a female pastor was leading the service that day. I immediately felt that I needed to leave b/c in my heart I didn’t think it was right. As a Catholic that is what I still believe. This is what is right for me.

God bless you and your wife.

I agree with you; just doesn’t have the same tenor when a woman leads a service.

 

[He_Man]

That’s sad, I don’t see anything a woman can’t do here that a man can. But that’s my opinion and experience.

Men can’t give birth. Women can’t confect the Eucharist. Why is that worthy of complaint?

I can’t grow leaves like a tree, and my wife, much to her chagrin, can’t carry our children in a pouch like a marsupial.

Granted, we are talking about the deaconate in this instance, but the issue of fairness and capability often come up in the same vein. This isn’t an issue of fairness, but the immutable reality of life.

 

[Michelle9]

Men can’t give birth. Women can’t confect the Eucharist. Why is that worthy of complaint?

I can’t grow leaves like a tree, and my wife, much to her chagrin, can’t carry our children in a pouch like a marsupial.

Granted, we are talking about the deaconate in this instance, but the issue of fairness and capability often come up in the same vein. This isn’t an issue of fairness, but the immutable reality of life.

It isn’t the same. These are things which are not possible for humans or for a specific gender. There is nothing that incapacitates a woman from confecting the Eucharist; other than her sex.

 

[He_Man]

It isn’t the same. These are things which are not possible for humans or for a specific gender. There is nothing that incapacitates a woman from confecting the Eucharist; other than her sex.

Well there you go. Technically gender, but that is the very essence of the point. Physically, a man is not capable of being pregnant, because the pregnancy is a physical transformation.

Spritually, a woman cannot confect the Eucharist, because the Transubstantiation is a spritual transformation.

A woman is free to attempt to, and is a lay male, and nothing would happen to the essence of the host. Just because you cannot see the Body of Christ does not mean it is not present. these are infallible teachings given to us by the Church, handed down from the Apostles, passed on from Jesus Himself.

Fairness has nothing to do with the issue. Again, is it fair I cannot give birth? That is simply how God created the world. If you are looking for a physical answer to a spiritual question, you are going to be disappointed. If you are looking for somethign in a woman’s DNA that disavows the transubstantiation, you’re going to be disappointed, because science cannot explain the Transubstantiation to begin with.

Many people do not under differential calculus, but they accept what they are told as true. Why?

Many do not understand physics at even an AP level, yet they trust what they are told. Why?

Many do not understand the complexities of Catholic theology, and yet, they do not trust the ONE ENTITY in history that was preordained to not lead us astray. Why?

 

[edwest2]

Women today have many more outlets for their opinions than they did fifty years ago. They can ever distribute communion. They can address the church on matters of important and even lecture inside the Church. They don’t need to be ordained.

Can you give an example of “lecture inside the Church”?

Best,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

According to Dr. Gary Macy, PhD, a Professor of Theology and a historian at Santa Clara University:

1. Women were ordained as deacons by the bishop within the santurary with the laying on of hands.
2. St. Paul mentions women deacons. “Phoebe, a deacon of the church at Cenchreae… help her in whatever she may require from you.” (Romans 16:1-2)
3. St. Paul in 1 Timothy 3:8-11 speaks about women deacons. **St. John Chrysostom **responded: “Some say that he (Paul) is talking about women in general, but that cannot be… But rather, he is speaking of those women who hold the rank of deacon.”
4. Dr. Macy makes a destinction between Deacon and the Priesthood. Rome has come out against the ordination of women as PRIESTS. Nothing has come out of Rome against the ordination of women as DEACONS.
5. According to historical records Popes Benedict VIII (1018), John XIX (1025) and Leo IX (1049) gave bishops the power to ordain women as deacons.
6. We even have the ritual, in Greek, with the prayers that were said for the ordination of women deacons.
7. Women were ordained as Deacons, celebrated at the altar with the bishop, hands were laid upon them, anointed with chrism by the bishop, and a stole was placed on their neck. They also read the Gospel and preached.
8. At the Council of Chalcedon of 451 required women deacons to be forty years of age and celibate. earlychurchtexts.com/public/chalcedon_canons.htm - Check canon 15.

As far as we know, there were women deacons in the Church till the 12th century.

Regarding the last sentence in point 4.

ncregister.com/site/article/vatican_letter_censures_women_deacon_courses/

Peace,
Ed

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

According to Dr. Gary Macy, PhD, a Professor of Theology and a historian at Santa Clara University:

1. Women were ordained as deacons by the bishop within the santurary with the laying on of hands.
2. St. Paul mentions women deacons. “Phoebe, a deacon of the church at Cenchreae… help her in whatever she may require from you.” (Romans 16:1-2)
3. St. Paul in 1 Timothy 3:8-11 speaks about women deacons. **St. John Chrysostom **responded: “Some say that he (Paul) is talking about women in general, but that cannot be… But rather, he is speaking of those women who hold the rank of deacon.”
4. Dr. Macy makes a destinction between Deacon and the Priesthood. Rome has come out against the ordination of women as PRIESTS. Nothing has come out of Rome against the ordination of women as DEACONS.
5. According to historical records Popes Benedict VIII (1018), John XIX (1025) and Leo IX (1049) gave bishops the power to ordain women as deacons.
6. We even have the ritual, in Greek, with the prayers that were said for the ordination of women deacons.
7. Women were ordained as Deacons, celebrated at the altar with the bishop, hands were laid upon them, anointed with chrism by the bishop, and a stole was placed on their neck. They also read the Gospel and preached.
8. At the Council of Chalcedon of 451 required women deacons to be forty years of age and celibate. earlychurchtexts.com/public/chalcedon_canons.htm - Check canon 15.

As far as we know, there were women deacons in the Church till the 12th century.

Deaconess≠Deacon

 

[Church_Man]

Regarding the last sentence in point 4.

ncregister.com/site/article/vatican_letter_censures_women_deacon_courses/

Peace,
Ed

The article states that Rome is discouraging the training of women for the Diaconate (because, at this time, there are no women deacons). No where in the article does Rome state that women can NEVER be deacons. If Rome didn’t want women to be Deacons, here would have been the perfect place to state so.

Unfortunately, Father Giles Dimock is misinformed. To be honest, most of us have not studied the history of the Diaconate or the role of women in the Diaconate. Dr. Macy’s work is solidly historical. Dr. Macy has read the documents in the original languages and no one has challenged his scholarship.

Most of us were told that women deacons helped with the baptism of women because the female candidates were naked. This part is true. I just found it difficult to believe that these women only showed up at Easter time and did nothing else.

“Father Dimock said although there is some evidence that there were female deacons in the Eastern Church, these were not considered exactly the same as men deacons.” According to the evidence from Dr. Macy, women functioned the same as male deacons.

 

[BusterMartin]

According to Dr. Gary Macy, PhD, a Professor of Theology and a historian at Santa Clara University:

1. Women were ordained as deacons by the bishop within the santurary with the laying on of hands.
2. St. Paul mentions women deacons. “Phoebe, a deacon of the church at Cenchreae… help her in whatever she may require from you.” (Romans 16:1-2)
3. St. Paul in 1 Timothy 3:8-11 speaks about women deacons. **St. John Chrysostom **responded: “Some say that he (Paul) is talking about women in general, but that cannot be… But rather, he is speaking of those women who hold the rank of deacon.”
4. Dr. Macy makes a destinction between Deacon and the Priesthood. Rome has come out against the ordination of women as PRIESTS. Nothing has come out of Rome against the ordination of women as DEACONS.
5. According to historical records Popes Benedict VIII (1018), John XIX (1025) and Leo IX (1049) gave bishops the power to ordain women as deacons.
6. We even have the ritual, in Greek, with the prayers that were said for the ordination of women deacons.
7. Women were ordained as Deacons, celebrated at the altar with the bishop, hands were laid upon them, anointed with chrism by the bishop, and a stole was placed on their neck. They also read the Gospel and preached.
8. At the Council of Chalcedon of 451 required women deacons to be forty years of age and celibate. earlychurchtexts.com/public/chalcedon_canons.htm - Check canon 15.

As far as we know, there were women deacons in the Church till the 12th century.

I just want to add to this. As far as I know, the Coptic Orthodox Church has about four hundred women deacons currently. Also, the Greek Orthodox Church recently began opening the doors for women deacons again. So…women deacons (in Churches the Catholic Church considers truly apostolic and valid) do still exist…although not in the Catholic Church. So, it could happen sometime in the future for the Catholic Church, too.

 

[Elizium23]

I just want to add to this. As far as I know, the Coptic Orthodox Church has about four hundred women deacons currently. Also, the Greek Orthodox Church recently began opening the doors for women deacons again. So…women deacons (in Churches the Catholic Church considers truly apostolic and valid) do still exist…although not in the Catholic Church. So, it could happen sometime in the future for the Catholic Church, too.

Deaconesses

Citation: bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/subdivisions/coptic_1.shtml

 

[JimR-OCDS]

When I was in discernment to become a deacon, during the history class on the diaconate, they told us that deaconesses were the wives of deacons an their role was limited to preparing the bodies of dead females for burial, and some other health functions serving females.

They did not preach, Baptize nor marry people.

Interesting, the Deacon reported directly to the Bishop and as a result the deacon was the eyes and ears of the Bishop throughout his territory. As a result, they had more political power than the presbyters and were resented as a result, which is probably how the office was eliminated for many centuries.

Jim

 

[NFrancis]

Just wondering what everyone thinks of this. This is Canon 15 from the Council of Chalcedon:

“A woman shall not receive the laying on of hands as a deaconess under forty years of age, and then only after searching examination. And if, after she has had hands laid on her and has continued for a time to minister, she shall despise the grace of God and give herself in marriage, she shall be anathematized and the man united to her.”

earlychurchtexts.com/public/chalcedon_canons.htm

 

[livingwordunity]

This notion needs to be crushed utterly and mercilessly. The Church will not give concessions on dogmatically defined beliefs just to appease the feminist movement in america.

At the root of this problem is a lack of faith. The radical feminists who are calling for female ordination are doing so because, lacking faith, they believe that the Church is just another man-made institution. Because of this they see the priesthood as being no different than any other job. Logically, if one believes that the Church was founded by Christ, that Christ is God, and that God is perfect and doesn’t make mistakes, one would not question why the Church will not go against what Christ (God) instituted.

 

[NFrancis]

I also found this:

Canon 19: Council of Nicaea

“Paulianists must be rebaptized, and if such as are clergymen seem to be blameless let them be ordained. If they do not seem to be blameless, let them be deposed. Deaconnesses who have been led astray, since they are not sharers of ordination, are to be reckoned among the Laity.”