Chivalry--where did it go?

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There’s also the concern that in many areas, the first consideration for jobs tends to go to those with social connections. Guys at that level tend to think of their buddies that they have coffee and go golfing with. If you’re only doing that with men, then only men’s names come up when they start thinking of people.
 
No, we don’t. But don’t we have an obligation to help females out too if we help males? Why leave half the population out based on no fault of their own?
 
cloistered said:
No, we don’t. But don’t we have an obligation to help females out too if we help males? Why leave half the population out based on no fault of their own?
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Is the only way to help someone out in their career is to go out to dinner with them?
 
I am amazed that you are ok with this. Try swithing “females” to “black people”. What if he said I refuse to dine or drink alcohol with black people. Are you still ok?
 
As long as he has the exact same rules for male employees, no problem at all.
 
No. As long as you’re not meeting with other employees over dinner, it’s not a problem at all. It’s only if you exclude some employees but not all.
 
JulianN said:
No. As long as you’re not meeting with other employees over dinner, it’s not a problem at all. It’s only if you exclude some employees but not all.
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You wou would first have to establish that refusing to have dinner alone with a female employee causes some sort of harm.
 
“You wou would first have to establish that refusing to have dinner alone with a female employee causes some sort of harm.”

Already done. It hurts them personally, it hurt them professionally. If Mike Pense doesn’t want to socialize with women, then he just shouldn’t socialize at all. That way, it hurts HIS career instead of that of those around him. Problem solved!
 
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Just being a decent human should tell you that Pence’s behavior is flat-out sexist and wrong. He makes his issues other peoples problems.

But, if you can’t look up your own proof and need a women to do your work for you…

“Think Pence’s quarantine of women is unique? Consider a recent survey by National Journal in which multiple women employed as congressional staffers reported (and male colleagues confirmed) the existence of an implicit policy that only male staffers could spend time one-on-one or at after-hours events with their (male) congressmen. Cut out of key conversations, networking opportunities, professional exposure, and face time with career influencers, female staffers naturally are underrepresented in leadership positions and — not surprisingly — earn about $6,000 less annually than their male peers.”

 
cloistered said:
But, if you can’t look up your own proof and need a women to do your work for you…
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First of all, that is a very sexist statement. Sexist statements are unacceptable on these forums. Second, you made a claim. It is incumbent upon the person making the claim to back it up. Now, the link you cited is gated, so I cannot access it to make a comment one way or another.
 
It wasn’t sexist at all. You weren’t hurt. Prove it with a study or no harm done.
 
DarkLight said:
I am familiar with the term you’re referring to. The more standard advice I’ve heard and given young women is to observe behavior with female service workers, especially if something isn’t going as planned. But especially that one doesn’t accept more than token gifts and pays one’s own way. A guy who keeps pushing for gifts or to pay for things is going to be a red flag.
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Push yes, insist one or twice or ask ‘are you sure?’ — not really. I suppose we both agree on this, but I just want to make the point those tests and flags are often exaggerated.
The test I always saw recommended was simply to observe the man’s behavior around waitresses and other workers (especially women) in the service industry. One can get a good test of someone’s character by watching what happens when the dinner is not what they ordered.
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I can’t help wondering how the women who are strict judges of men would themselves fare in taking the tests they administer.
 
chevalier said:
I can’t help wondering how the women who are strict judges of men would themselves fare in taking the tests they administer.
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I’d recommend the same judgments to men judging women.

The point is you don’t want to end up with someone who’s only nice because you have something they want. Otherwise what do you think is going to happen when you’re married and you screw up dinner?
 
Xantippe said:
Chevalier,

I think you may (without realizing it) have some “**** tests” of your own that you’ve been using on women.
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I try to be sparing and above all preserve some humanity in doing this, but yes, I administer **** tests too. I mostly do this, however, when I spot inconsistencies in people’s claims or when there are some signs hinting at things the person wouldn’t admit if directly asked, hence for example reactions must be tested e.g. by telling that a person a tale with similar facts to observe the reaction.

What I want to emphasize with especial strength is that I don’t treat people badly to test their reaction, such as their ability to say calm or forgive or take things in stride/as a joke, or their social fitness.

In terms of the waiter/waitress test, for example, I sit back and watch. I may intentionally omit to react when something bad’s going on (to see how far the woman will go before she reins it in, for example), but I don’t put people in harmful or similar situations.

One of my favourite tests of the last-mentioned kind is how the woman will treat a guy who asks her politely to dance or out on a date when she doesn’t want to go or is unavailable. I won’t put her (or him) through that on purpose, but if the situation develops spontaneously, I will sit back and watch without making my presence known. But I will normally be more interests rather in how far she’s going to go in a dance with a guy who tries to sexy it up, or how far she will go if someone tries to flirt with her, or how far she will go if she initiates the flirting, e.g. will she just compliment a guy or make a ‘well, if I didn’t already have a boyfriend’, or ‘my boyfriend is so lucky I’m a loyal girl’, which is perfectly fine, or will she forget herself just barely, which is less fine, or will she go to great lengths.

But I would normally never, for example, ask a guy to try to flirt with her just to just put a woman through a test like that, which I would consider to be unfriendly and ungentlemanly and uncharitable. I might in a very extreme situation (e.g. in the presence of evidence of having been lied to), but not otherwise.
I sometimes feel like you’ve scripted a romantic story and you expect to be able to slot the woman of your choice into the scripted role, and are very disappointed when women don’t cooperate, or when women who seem willing to cooperate turn out to not be very nice.
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I am merely disappointed with the last group you mention, i.e. women who choose to be rude, but then only because I am disappointed with all people who choose to be rude, and being female is no better excuse than being male, for opting to be rude.
 
You might find that more egalitarian-minded women have a stronger sense of justice and much less sense of entitlement. But, as Dark Light noted, women like that are not going to be willing to accept lavish gifts.
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I don’t think I ever gave you a good reason to think I’m obsessed with giving lavish gifts and insisting on their acceptance.
Chevalier, I know in the past that you’ve talked about giving big gifts or making big romantic gestures. I know that is your style, but the truth is that it is likely to a) scare off nice women who don’t wish to be beholden to a man they barely know and b) attract takers. Tone down the grand gestures and be more sensitive to what scares nice women off (grand gestures, insisting on providing unwanted help, lavish gifts), and you might find that you start meeting a better sort of woman.
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As above. However, I do need to add that I’m not quite attracted to people who choose to be scared or scared off a lot. And I do know how to deal with people who are not too quick to incur perceived debts of gratitude; I am one of those, so I can empathize and generally know how to act around them. In any case, it would be rude to impose on them, and I wonder how I managed to give the impression that I would be willing to do that. My rule is not to go where uninvited or even coolly welcome.
 
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