Chivalry--where did it go?

[chevalier]

Come to think of it, chivalry is not going to be very popular if it means making grand gestures of generosity that the woman never asked for and never really wanted and maybe even finds embarrassing or demeaning.

As much as I value courtesy to women, the entire world does not revolve around what a woman could possibly hypothetically, if she were to exaggerate, find embarrassing or otherwise uncomfortable, for which purpose normal communication as between human beings exists. The world is more social than that, which is important to me. I’m not attracted to extreme individualists or to people who place too much emphasis on their comfort or on obsessively trying to find out whether they are feeling comfortable or not when not sure. I expect people to focus more on other things than that, e.g. the task at hand, the social event being attended, the conversation, the interlocutor. Otherwise I will tend to avoid association. I certainly wouldn’t attempt a romantic relationship and probably not a friendship either, whether male or female in the last instance.

 

[chevalier]

Standards should honestly be the same for both

I would prefer that too. Reasons and justifications for swaying the balance one way or the other could be multiplied at infinitum and debated to death. By contrast, equality intuitively seems fair, and it’s hard to argue against the fairness of it.

However, in traditional terms, I’d say there is equality in expecting men to act like gentlemen to women but also expecting women to act like ladies to men; the latter tends usually to be omitted in at least a significant degree.

 

[chevalier]

Just be kind. No nonsense rules of chivalry.

Of course. It all comes down to kindness. Etiquette without kindness is rudeness institutionalized.

 

[chevalier]

I once had a boss that was exceptionally chivalrous and it sucked for me. I was the only female in the office. He went out of his way to open doors for me, to make sure the guys spoke more politely while when I walked up. I was never more aware of being a female in a male office.

I’m sorry, I can imagine how that could be uncomfortable. I’d suggest talking to him about that, as every woman is different just like every man, and there are a lot of women who like, enjoy, expect or even insist on the different treatment. It wouldn’t be fair or realistic to expect men to concentrate too much on guessing, and I’m sure any gentleman would put your comfort before his habits. For the record, there’s nothing wrong in being the only female in a male office at all. We’re all human and generally sympathetic to each other.

 

[chevalier]

…and to have it used as a cover for favoring men over women economically, such as “we can’t give you this job because a man needs it to support his family. Oh, you don’t have a man to support you? Well then you should get one”.

(BTW, I’m not making this example up. Years ago I heard a man, a relative, unblushingly and unironically state that the jobs should go to the men first, because they have families to support. Then if there are any positions left, women could be given them)

I would support promoting sole breadwinners over others, but the truth is that joint breadwinners may often have a sick child or elderly relative, a single may be having a hard time trying to find gainful employment to actually start working toward ever being able to support a family, or running out of opportunities to support a parent, for example. ‘Everybody has somebody’, not just sole breadwinners, and just about anybody may be destitute or the victim of a theft or burglary or non-payment of wages by the last employer or something else of the sort. It would be the easiest if people either talked honestly, openly, with tact and empathy or just ceased to discriminate at all. And probably the latter would be better in most situations (individual exceptions can always be discussed when called for).

 

[chevalier]

I am amazed that you are ok with this. Try swithing “females” to “black people”. What if he said I refuse to dine or drink alcohol with black people. Are you still ok?

Now that would be rude. I would drink even with a communist. Refusing to drink with someone is about the height of rudeness!

You wou would first have to establish that refusing to have dinner alone with a female employee causes some sort of harm.

If there are concerns about either assault (plenty of those) or false accusations (plenty of those), a good solution could be for every boss to have an opposite-sex deputy for having one-on-one lunches with the opposite sex. Or go in threes or larger groups.

A lot of men do refuse to be alone with women in business settings because of how easy it is to become falsely accused and lose everything even without trial. And those aren’t just single guys without a mortgage, they’re often people who have families to keep. They can’t afford to run the risk on a repeat basis.

If I worked in the US and perhaps even a couple of other countries, I think I would opt not to be alone with women either. Too much risk with the current climate of believing accusers without question as a cultural imperative. Here, I don’t run the risk. And incidentally we rarely regard dining out or having a drink or coffee with a member of the opposite sex as too much like a date. However, it’s supposed to not be made to resemble a date too much, in other words, moderation is expected. Once it gets too flirty, the trouble is real.

 

[cloistered]

Etiquette without kindness is rudeness institutionalized.

So true! Such a great way of putting it.

 

[chevalier]

Thank you.

 

[chevalier]

I’d recommend the same judgments to men judging women.

Of course.

The point is you don’t want to end up with someone who’s only nice because you have something they want.

Yup, nobody does. And yet, everybody is.

Otherwise what do you think is going to happen when you’re married and you screw up dinner?

Impossible, I cook too well! No, really, I burn stuff every now and then and tend to overdo the herbs and spices.

As for the threat you mention, I try not to expect constant, unvariable, tranquil self-control from people, as quite honestly I’m not really that way myself, and I tend to be more attracted to people with a bit of a lively temper. I also make a point of being tolerant of occasional blunders. I expect everybody to make them at some point, given the right, or wrong, situation, and believe in being forgiving. What I look for, however, is a team outlook and mutual acceptance of each other’s humanity. If we each regard the other as a human being and act accordingly and also play in the same team, blunders aren’t really an issue. And if we don’t, then no amount of etiquette or self-control is going to help.

Jokingly I could say if she lashes out or grumbles but later hugs me and apologizes/says it’s okay, peace, etc., that’s better than if she stays ever calm and dignified but what I can read in that dignified, calm face is not pretty at all. I’ll take a tantrum over silent contempt any day. Actually, contempt is about the only thing that really bugs me, most of the rest is relatively trivial on the scale.

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t think I ever gave you a good reason to think I’m obsessed with giving lavish gifts and insisting on their acceptance.

You said at some point that you’d give a huge bunch of roses early on in a relationship.

I’ve always gotten the impression from what you’ve said that you come on very strong. I don’t mean in a physically inappropriate way, but in other ways. That does have the potential of scaring women off.

However, I do need to add that I’m not quite attracted to people who choose to be scared or scared off a lot.

A lot of women have had unpleasant experiences with men or have friends who have had unpleasant experiences–it’s not necessarily choosing to be scared.

 

[Xantippe]

A lot of men do refuse to be alone with women in business settings because of how easy it is to become falsely accused and lose everything even without trial.

Lunch in a restaurant isn’t exactly “alone.”

 

[DarkLight]

A lot of women have had unpleasant experiences with men or have friends who have had unpleasant experiences–it’s not necessarily choosing to be scared.

Yup - I think every woman I know at least has had the experience of a guy completely losing it on her because she said no. Most have the experience of being touched or grabbed. I’ve been followed multiple times because a guy didn’t like that I turned him down. I think a lot of times men who talk about women choosing to be scared don’t realize the sorts of experiences that actually happen to women pretty regularly.

And unfortunately it’s compounded by the fact that a certain sort of man will consider friendly engagement to be “leading him on”, or any friendly contact with a woman to be flirting. A certain standoffishness with strange men becomes necessary to a woman who doesn’t want to be seen as a victim.

 

[chevalier]

You said at some point that you’d give a huge bunch of roses early on in a relationship.

Friendship too, by the way. But I want to make this emphatically clear, although our cultures are legitimately different (assault is much less of a problem here, and we don’t have nearly so much tension between the sexes because of all of the SJW nonsense and political correctness crusading as on your side of the pond) that nothing of what I described is or was a legitimate trigger.

I’ve always gotten the impression from what you’ve said that you come on very strong. I don’t mean in a physically inappropriate way, but in other ways. That does have the potential of scaring women off.

The truth is that if you come on strong women will scold you for that and proclaim you desperate, counterfactually, and if you don’t, they will colour you a timid beta. By this I don’t mean to say all women, but the majority do fall in this Scylla and Charybdis sort of pattern. I blame artificial victim mentality and encouragement of complaining. After all, we are the (global) society that makes sure all its citizens have at least a minor case of depression or anxiety or are otherwise unstable and barely functional.

A lot of women have had unpleasant experiences with men or have friends who have had unpleasant experiences–it’s not necessarily choosing to be scared.

Everybody has had experiences and a bunch of pretty legitimate and pretty nasty traumas. But that doesn’t take away free will, it only makes things difficult. Very difficult, but not insurmountable. At some point accountability starts. People are choosing to be professional victims in this society because it adds spice to their lives, just like people like horror movies, children like ghost stories, even my cat’s vacuum-cleaner panic is more pretended than real. Look at the scare-mongering in politics; people are choosing that. It gives them something, where they may have nothing, and even fear is better than nothing. This is similar to the EU nonsense about personal data, getting people obsessed about controlling their personal data — millions of consent forms to process daily — because there is nothing else in their lives or around themselves that they could control. It’s the same with the thrill fear brings.

I can tell a legit case. I know my own share about dysfunctional situations; I first grabbed a knife against an adult man when I was 10, and I have some stories about past relationships. Legit issues are legit issues, I respect them and have a countercultural load of compassion for that. But entertainment value is something else. When adults do that, we can be friends maybe, depending on the situation (I have friends who do that). But not romantic partners, if it really gets out of hand. It just falls short of the adult maturity standard in my book, similar to people who make a point of becoming totally freaking out and becoming non-functional around a spider or two when they don’t have a legit case of arachnophobia. (This is a clumsy example, but it’s five o’clock here. )

 

[chevalier]

And unfortunately it’s compounded by the fact that a certain sort of man will consider friendly engagement to be “leading him on”, or any friendly contact with a woman to be flirting. A certain standoffishness with strange men becomes necessary to a woman who doesn’t want to be seen as a victim.

It becomes necessary to be seen as someone who won’t go down meekly, sure. But a confrontational attitude is actually seen as a challenge by those who are into that sort of thing. And by a lot of men it’s simply going to be seen as misandry, in a feminist world.

With me, it’s like I can understand precautions, though if a girl held a gun to my head, I suppose I would ask her to put it down. I understand precautiouns, and I understand nervousness and anxiety and post-traumatic reactions. But calculated rudeness is not something I would be willing to experience any longer than necessary, so if I got that from a woman from a dating site, for example, there would be no dating. And if someone filed a harassment suit because I smiled or said something nice in the passing or something else like that, I’d sue back. Well, it’s a good thing I don’t live in the States. I wouldn’t be able to adjust to all the heightened-secruity atmosphere, let alone accept that people were going to suspect me or call security on me for getting a hunch based on something, or just preventively. No offence intended.

What I want to stress, though, is I never put people in threatening situations or expect them to put themselves through such situations for me. I only take ill to rash accusations, gratuitous insults, rude tones of voice and stuff like that. Which simply means I dissociate, unless there’s a good reason to file a complaint (customer service, public officials, authority figures, etc. deciding to be rude).

 

[Xantippe]

And if someone filed a harassment suit because I smiled or said something nice in the passing or something else like that, I’d sue back. Well, it’s a good thing I don’t live in the States. I wouldn’t be able to adjust to all the heightened-secruity atmosphere, let alone accept that people were going to suspect me or call security on me for getting a hunch based on something, or just preventively. No offence intended.

Believe it or not, it’s not really like that in the US.

 

[chevalier]

Believe it or not, it’s not really like that in the US.

Can’t, based on what I’m hearing, including in this conversation. It seems if you’re male you need to adjust to being treated like you’re on probation and under investigation at the same time.

 

[Xantippe]

I only take ill to rash accusations, gratuitous insults, rude tones of voice and stuff like that.

Granted, you probably live in a large city, but you seem to be dealing with more rudeness than I have ever seen, including living and working in (eek!) RUSSIA.

 

[Xantippe]

Can’t, based on what I’m hearing, including in this conversation. It seems if you’re male you need to adjust to being treated like you’re on probation and under investigation at the same time.

My husband seems to do OK.

 

[chevalier]

Well, he’s American, was probably born there. Here, we’re like 200 years behind when it comes to hearing a defamatory accusation or allegation of misconduct or improper intention in our face. Invitations to step outside (between males) and lawsuits tend to result.

 

[Xantippe]

My husband is actually from your part of the world.