Chivalry--where did it go?

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It’s also going to depend on where you are. Guy at the bus stop or in the drugstore is liable to get a frosty reception from many women. Same approach after Mass might get a better result.
 
DarkLight said:
It’s also going to depend on where you are. Guy at the bus stop or in the drugstore is liable to get a frosty reception from many women. Same approach after Mass might get a better result.
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The guy’s age matters a great deal. It’s only natural for students to pick up women like that and for young women to even expect and even hope to be picked up that way, but closer to 25, let alone 30 years of age, it just becomes weird. It’s still doable, of course, but it requires a great deal more tact and sensitivity. As a rule, a socially competent man at that age would know how much he could afford, and how to pull it off the right way, more or less, and a socially competent woman at that age would more or less know how to tell the difference. However, in some parts of the world the risks are simply greater than elsewhere, due to a greater number of assaults and a greater share of socially competent con men; consequently, the threat level a man seems to represent will be judged differently.
 
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It died with paranoia over our preceived feminist rights and the advent of confused and weak male role models on social and public media as being held as the new norm.
 
It’s not dead. People, including me, still practice it. The very in-your-face media portrayals of weak and confused men has not helped. All of us should behave well among others. All of us should be polite and courteous. I see too many people with blank stares or anger on their faces. They refuse to make eye contact much less say hello. I leave them in peace. I reject the “new norm” as deficient and disrespectful.
 
…or a dark street at midnight, or in a parking garage, or alone in an elevator, or on the bus, or jogging in a wooded city park, or while working retail…

There are lots of situations when overtures from friendly male strangers are unlikely to be unwelcome.
 
Ironically, the one bit of chivalry I wouldn’t mind seeing come back is being more willing to stand up to men who are misbehaving. I know I would have a lot more confidence and willingness to interact with strange men, if I didn’t feel often that no matter what the man’s doing other men are likely to back him. I’ve had far too many cases where a guy will go from being pushy and ignoring any polite end to the discussion, to flipping out on me and acting like I just turned on him out of nowhere for kicks. And unfortunately I’ve found the “I was just being friendly/she was leading me on/she just hates men” line goes over too well without question with other men.
 
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cloistered said:
Mike Pence’s behavior holds back the career of every single woman he works with. His lack of self-control or his wife’s lack of faith in him shouldn’t punish inoceant female collegues.
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The “Mike Pence rule” always sparks controversy whenever it is brought up. 🙂 Here are my thoughts on it:
  1. Mike Pence, by all accounts, is a genuinely good and decent man. I don’t think he imposes this rule on himself because he is tempted by other women or lacks self-control, but to avoid being in a situation where someone could accuse him of doing something inappropriate. Sadly, in today’s political environment, that is not an unreasonable fear.
  2. He’s not just your typical guy in the office; his job is in high-level politics. The fact of the matter is that the Vice President has political enemies who would not hesitate to smear him if the opportunity presented itself. And his self-imposed rule prevents at least one situation where that could happen. Your typical office-job guy, on the other hand, is not in a situation where people are out to get him in the way that some people in high-level politics are.
I don’t necessary agree fully with his stance but considering his position, it’s hard to blame him for being a bit over-cautious. I would also bet that the media has overhyped his “rule.” I am sure he treats his women colleagues equally; and there are plenty of ways to meet with colleagues that don’t involve one-on-one dining or drinks.
 
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The worry a lot of people have is that if you’re typically having dinner or drinks alone with same-sex colleagues, those are the ones who are going to get the in when something opens up. In male-dominated fields, that’s going to mean men get more opportunities than women. I think that’s especially worrisome to many people in politics because a lot of women feel that having only men in office doesn’t adequately represent them.
 
DarkLight said:
The worry a lot of people have is that if you’re typically having dinner or drinks alone with same-sex colleagues, those are the ones who are going to get the in when something opens up. In male-dominated fields, that’s going to mean men get more opportunities than women. I think that’s especially worrisome to many people in politics because a lot of women feel that having only men in office doesn’t adequately represent them.
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Yes I tend not to think too high level. If I was a manager I would not dine one on one with any subordinate.

As a general rule though and purely social I understand Pences rule, and it is my preference not to dine one on one with a member of the opposite sex that I’m not in a relationship with but not a hard rule.
 
EnglishTeacher said:
I am sure he treats his women colleagues equally; and there are plenty of ways to meet with colleagues that don’t involve one-on-one dining or drinks.
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What I find laughable is the idea that the only way a woman can advance is if she dines alone with a man. That argument is silly on its face.
 
My husband has a fair number of group dinners for work.

Solo meals with colleagues of both sexes are more common for lunch. It would be very limiting for the women he works with to not be able to have lunch with a male colleague or mentor.
 
Xantippe said:
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stinkcat_14:
What I find laughable is the idea that the only way a woman can advance is if she dines alone with a man. That argument is silly on its face.
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So, why do male colleagues need to do so?
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Do they need to?
 
stinkcat_14 said:
Do they need to?
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Well, that is the question, isn’t it?

If they can stop having solo meals with female colleagues without hurting their productivity or their female colleagues’ careers, shouldn’t they also be able to stop having solo meals with male colleagues without hurting productivity or their male colleagues’ careers?

At least in my husband’s field, lunch with individual students and colleagues is very important for staying in touch and making sure that people are in the loop and on track. I would be 🙀 or 🤨 at the idea of my husband having solo dinners with colleagues of either sex in town, but lunch is totally in my comfort zone. And I would understand if my husband did a solo dinner at a conference (when the option would be eating dinner alone in a restaurant in a strange town) with a female colleague or student, although I’d prefer a group dinner!
 
Curious as to why solo meals are necessary, though. Why not have lunch with a 2-3 of your colleagues? (ETA: We must have cross-posted; didn’t see your reply above.)

Though like I said or tried to say above, there is nothing necessarily wrong with two colleagues of the opposite sex having a meal or a drink together. I am merely saying that VP Pence is in a different position than most, and for that reason I don’t think his policy is unreasonable.
 
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Honestly nowadays, it’s not like an accusation couldn’t come from a same-sex colleague anyway. It’s not like we haven’t seen married men accused of making sexual advances on male staffers before.
 
Xantippe said:
If they can stop having solo meals with female colleagues without hurting their productivity or their female colleagues’ careers, shouldn’t they also be able to stop having solo meals with male colleagues without hurting productivity or their male colleagues’ careers?
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I think the big problem is that nobody has established that having solo meals has any effect on a person’s career. In my department, I might occasionally have a solo meal with one person, and that is because that person always buys. If my university pays the bill, it always involves several people. Not that any of it had any effect on anyone’s career.
 
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