Christ is everything

[po18guy]

An interesting insight and observation.

I’d love to see this guy post this stuff on Baptist Board or whatever that place is. I doubt he’d do it though, do you?

I would say extremely unlikely. He apparently uses info from anti-Catholic sites. His questions are disingenuous, so all I can do is pray that his hardness of heart against Christ’s Church will be melted by the warmth of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, whom he claims to place first.

 

[po18guy]

Thanks for the help. But I will not be going to links at this time. I think you are only partially correct. When you consider all of the catholic sacraments, does the Church draw from the entire Tresury of Merit as the basis of all of the Catholic Sacraments? Maybe a Catholic Answer apologist can clarify this issue for us? I understand the Catholic faith is by faith, grace, and Christ. Works done in Christ is metiorous for the Christian. The sacrament are dispensed by the church by the good works done by Christ, Joseph and Mary, and Catholic Saints contained in the Treasury of Merit. The bottom line, the Treasury of Merit is more than what Christ merited for the Christian in His life and death, correct?

Yet again, NO! Which site are you getting this false information from? And why? Your soul is at stake.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I think the official Roman Catholic teaching consists of metorious righteounsess of more than just Jesus Christ’s righteousness, correct?

What the Church teaches about grace and merit:

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

 

[CWBetts]

Yet ANOTHER thread, started by a disgruntled Protestant, who has no other motive than to smear Roman Catholics, and bash Catholicism when they clearly have no understanding of what the Catholic Church is, or what she teaches. I do not need, nor wish, to see your proof texts taken out of context to somehow “prove” the One True Church is in error. It is not. The error you see is based on misconceptions, half-truths, and outright lies. I know this because I swallowed them for years. If you open your eyes, you will see that the Church teaches the fullness of truth, and has an authority found in the Scriptures, an authority not granted the Scriptures themselves. I reccomend you stop your anti-Catholic witch-hunt, and red some of the articles available on Catholic Answers, and maybe, just maybe, you can learn about the Church you hate. It was Archbishop Fulton Sheen that said, “There are not a hundrend people who hate that Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate waht they think the Catholic Church is”

 

[Church_Militant]

I would say extremely unlikely. He apparently uses info from anti-Catholic sites. His questions are disingenuous, so all I can do is pray that his hardness of heart against Christ’s Church will be melted by the warmth of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, whom he claims to place first.

 

[ralphinal]

Thanks for the help. But I will not be going to links at this time. I think you are only partially correct. When you consider all of the catholic sacraments, does the Church draw from the entire Tresury of Merit as the basis of all of the Catholic Sacraments? Maybe a Catholic Answer apologist can clarify this issue for us? I understand the Catholic faith is by faith, grace, and Christ. Works done in Christ is metiorous for the Christian. The sacrament are dispensed by the church by the good works done by Christ, Joseph and Mary, and Catholic Saints contained in the Treasury of Merit. The bottom line, the Treasury of Merit is more than what Christ merited for the Christian in His life and death, correct?

You need to take the saints out of your understanding of Sacraments. The role of the Saints is contained within the Communion of Saints, and their place within the Treasure of Merit is strictly secondary to that of Christ.

From the CCC

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church’s treasury, which is “not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the ‘treasury of the Church’ is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy.”

Simple enough, right?

1477 “This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission in the unity of the Mystical Body.”

This ties the Communion of Saints into the Treasury of Merit. Just as I can pray for you, and you for me, saints in heaven can and do pray for us. It is part of the Body of Christ.

Now, the Sacraments do not rely on the saints at all. The Sacraments are outward signs of inward change of Grace. THey strictly apply the Work of Jesus Christ to the people. FOr example, Baptism includes the washing of sin, the influx of grace, and the Holy Spirit. THere is no part of it related to anything any saint has done or will do.

 

[underdog]

You need to take the saints out of your understanding of Sacraments. The role of the Saints is contained within the Communion of Saints, and their place within the Treasure of Merit is strictly secondary to that of Christ.

From the CCC

Simple enough, right?

This ties the Communion of Saints into the Treasury of Merit. Just as I can pray for you, and you for me, saints in heaven can and do pray for us. It is part of the Body of Christ.

Now, the Sacraments do not rely on the saints at all. The Sacraments are outward signs of inward change of Grace. THey strictly apply the Work of Jesus Christ to the people. FOr example, Baptism includes the washing of sin, the influx of grace, and the Holy Spirit. THere is no part of it related to anything any saint has done or will do.

Thanks Ralph for the official teaching. I think the other Catholic Christians over-reacted without knowing the true teaching of the church. I’m sure you can say that I’m not that far off in my understanding on the treasury of merit. The concept is also related to this:

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

Again, I understand that the way of salvation for the Catholic Christian is through grace, faith, and Christ. However, the Church does not teach that what Christ merited by His life and death is sufficient for you, correct? In the Catholic formula, God cannot declare you justified or just until the Catholic Christian cooperates with God to become just. Do you think I have an accurate understanding of the Roman Catholic way of salvation? Therefore, back to the thread topic of Christ is everything to the Christian.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Thanks Ralph for the official teaching. I think the other Catholic Christians over-reacted without knowing the true teaching of the church. I’m sure you can say that I’m not that far off in my understanding on the treasury of merit. The concept is also related to this:

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

Again, I understand that the way of salvation for the Catholic Christian is through grace, faith, and Christ. However, the Church does not teach that what Christ merited by His life and death is sufficient for you, correct? In the Catholic formula, God cannot declare you justified or just until the Catholic Christian cooperates with God to become just. Do you think I have an accurate understanding of the Roman Catholic way of salvation? Therefore, back to the thread topic of Christ is everything to the Christian.

Must you follow Christ to be a Christian?

What does the bible say?

Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

James 2:24
24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

John 15
10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

 

[fbl9]

Again, I understand that the way of salvation for the Catholic Christian is through grace, faith, and Christ. However, the Church does not teach that what Christ merited by His life and death is sufficient for you, correct? In the Catholic formula, God cannot declare you justified or just until the Catholic Christian cooperates with God to become just. Do you think I have an accurate understanding of the Roman Catholic way of salvation? Therefore, back to the thread topic of Christ is everything to the Christian.

from this one can easisly glean that God forces one to be a christian???iow it does not matter what one does if God chooses that person is saved regardless if they continue to live in sin without ever repenting…in your world what did Christ’s life,death and resurection merrit for you?

 

[Church_Militant]

However, the Church does not teach that what Christ merited by His life and death is sufficient for you, correct?

No, that is a total misrepresentation of the Catholic teaching.

Read what it says NOT what you interpret it to say. This is precisely the very sane problem that Catholics have with so many n-Cs and the scriptures. When you read what is there without projecting your interpretation or some other n-C rhetoric onto it then you can actually get it right.

Why n-Cs have such a hard time with that is beyond the comprehension of most of us Catholics. I blame Sola Scriptura.

 

[Callin]

Do you agree that the main benefit of the life and death of Christ is to bring us sinners to God, reconciling us to the Father so we are restored to a personal and intimate relationship to God as an adopted child of God? We are now able to call upon God as our Heavenly Father. As a child of God through the work of Christ, we now are able to begin to learn to glorify God and enjoy Him.

I’m not sure how this relates to my post at all, but anyway:

the main benefit of the life and death of Christ is to bring us sinners to God

Sure. Now, assuming Jesus wants this, which would be more successful?

A single church with the same beliefs everywhere? Or a “universal” church where time spent bringing people to God is instead spent on spreading conflicting beliefs among people who are already close to God, and also spent quarreling amongst each other? And which one would look more appealing to the average non-Christian?

Be honest. Ignore history for a moment. Which if the two - if Jesus could choose one - would be more successful at bringing more people into a closer relationship with God?

Matthew 12:25: “And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand”.

 

[ralphinal]

Thanks Ralph for the official teaching. I think the other Catholic Christians over-reacted without knowing the true teaching of the church. I’m sure you can say that I’m not that far off in my understanding on the treasury of merit. The concept is also related to this:

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

Again, I understand that the way of salvation for the Catholic Christian is through grace, faith, and Christ. However, the Church does not teach that what Christ merited by His life and death is sufficient for you, correct? In the Catholic formula, God cannot declare you justified or just until the Catholic Christian cooperates with God to become just. Do you think I have an accurate understanding of the Roman Catholic way of salvation? Therefore, back to the thread topic of Christ is everything to the Christian.

Read it carefully: Christ is the sole cause by which we can become justified. We must accept salvation at that time.

Think about it like this. A man owns a large tract of land. He decides that he will subdivide it and allow people to build homes upon it. FIrst, he hires a company to develop the land. They put in basic roads, run utilities to the sites, and survey the area. Now, people can come and buy the lots to build on. If he does not develop the land, no one can build on it. If no one buys the land, no one has a home on it.

Justification is the same as the development. We have no part in it. All that we can do is to become worthy of salvation through the work of Jesus Christ. Salvation is the same as buying the lot. We must choose to cooperate with Jesus’s work in our lives by allowing the Holy Spirit the freedom to move us into a life in Christ.

Without Christ, a CAtholic has no chance of salvation. Without Christ’s work, we cannot be justified.

You seem to use the two words interchangeably. That is understandable, as scriptures do it as well. However, it is clear in the Bible that there are two theological phenominon going on.

IF the death of Jesus is all that matters, why must you accept him as your savior? WHat you are preaching is similar.

 

[underdog]

It’s interesting that most of you would rather discuss the Roman Catholic Church instead of the living God. Jesus Christ is at the right hand of the Father interceeding for those who are Christians.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

It’s interesting that most of you would rather discuss the Roman Catholic Church instead of the living God. Jesus Christ is at the right hand of the Father interceeding for those who are Christians.

What is more interesting is that we consistently prove your understanding of the Church to be wrong using scripture and the catechism.

Catholics love our Lord Jesus. He is the center of our existence.

We believe all of his teachings, not just a few.

We want to obey his commandments and do his will, which includes listening to those he sent.

 

[po18guy]

Again, I understand that the way of salvation for the Catholic Christian is through grace, faith, and Christ. However, the Church does not teach that what Christ merited by His life and death is sufficient for you, correct? In the Catholic formula, God cannot declare you justified or just until the Catholic Christian cooperates with God to become just. Do you think I have an accurate understanding of the Roman Catholic way of salvation? Therefore, back to the thread topic of Christ is everything to the Christian.

Do you believe in the Trinity, or just Christ? There are some “Christians” who deny the Trinity. We want to know where you are coming from, that’s all. Thank you.

 

[ralphinal]

It’s interesting that most of you would rather discuss the Roman Catholic Church instead of the living God. Jesus Christ is at the right hand of the Father interceeding for those who are Christians.

I want to discuss both

 

[CWBetts]

It’s interesting that most of you would rather discuss the Roman Catholic Church instead of the living God. Jesus Christ is at the right hand of the Father interceeding for those who are Christians.

The Church is the Body Of Christ, established by Jesus with Peter as the first pope, and is the pillar of all truth.

 

[underdog]

Read it carefully: Christ is the sole cause by which we can become justified. We must accept salvation at that time.

Think about it like this. A man owns a large tract of land. He decides that he will subdivide it and allow people to build homes upon it. FIrst, he hires a company to develop the land. They put in basic roads, run utilities to the sites, and survey the area. Now, people can come and buy the lots to build on. If he does not develop the land, no one can build on it. If no one buys the land, no one has a home on it.

Justification is the same as the development. We have no part in it. All that we can do is to become worthy of salvation through the work of Jesus Christ. Salvation is the same as buying the lot. We must choose to cooperate with Jesus’s work in our lives by allowing the Holy Spirit the freedom to move us into a life in Christ.

Without Christ, a CAtholic has no chance of salvation. Without Christ’s work, we cannot be justified.

You seem to use the two words interchangeably. That is understandable, as scriptures do it as well. However, it is clear in the Bible that there are two theological phenominon going on.

IF the death of Jesus is all that matters, why must you accept him as your savior? WHat you are preaching is similar.

No, I posted several times that the Roman Catholic way of salvation is by grace, faith, and Christ. For clarification, the life and death of Jesus Christ are both significant for the Christian. If Jesus did not merit God’s favor by His perfect obedience, we would not have the righteousness of Christ. Therefore, I understand the importance of Christ to the Roman Catholic Christian. Within justification, God does not declare a Roman Catholic to be finally and permanently justified until that person actually become just by cooperating with God through the sacraments, correct? The Roman Catholic Christian is never declared just on the sole basis of the life and death of Christ, correct? The key to salvation is to access the means of justifying grace merited by Christ, kept in the Treasury of Merit and dispensed by the Catholic Church through the sacraments. Please correct or confirm my understanding at this point. The Roman Catholic way of salvation is not that easy to understand, even many Roman Catholic Christians seem confused too.

 

[fbl9]

It’s interesting that most of you would rather discuss the Roman Catholic Church instead of the living God. Jesus Christ is at the right hand of the Father interceeding for those who are Christians.

equally intersting is that you would want His Body(the church) to be a divided house.Which teaches against itself.

 

[underdog]

equally intersting is that you would want His Body(the church) to be a divided house.Which teaches against itself.

So goes the battle that Christ told us would happen before He ascended to Heaven. Do not be surprised, and do not loose hope because God is always in control.