Christ is everything

[underdog]

Do you reject those sent by Jesus?

If you do, then you are rejecting him.

Do you reject Jesus?

Of course not, because the Apostles in the Bible point us to the person and work of Jesus Christ. Peter points to the person and work of Jesus Christ as everything to the Christian. Our hope is found in Jesus Christ and not our churches.

 

[ralphinal]

Everything in the Treasury of Merit is due to the life and death and resurection of Jesus Christ.

 

[underdog]

Whose do you think it is? Are you havin’ a good time with this straw man?

Do you have any idea what the Treasury of Merit is all about? It’s not a straw man’s agrument, but the Roman Catholic system of salvation.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Of course not, because the Apostles in the Bible point us to the person and work of Jesus Christ. Peter points to the person and work of Jesus Christ as everything to the Christian. Our hope is found in Jesus Christ and not our churches.

If you reject those sent by Jesus, you are rejecting him.

Paul was sent by Jesus, and this is what he said. Are you rejecting him?

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

 

[underdog]

Everything in the Treasury of Merit is due to the life and death and resurection of Jesus Christ.

I understand that all merit that is found in the Treasury of Merit is because of grace, faith, and Christ done by Catholic saints. That’s a good point to clarify. However, you reject that the actual work of Christ in His life and death is not enough for the church, correct?

 

[underdog]

If you reject those sent by Jesus, you are rejecting him.

Paul was sent by Jesus, and this is what he said. Are you rejecting him?

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Of course not. I already stated that I believe all of the Apostles found in the Bible are necessary to receive and believe. If it were not for the Apostles, how would we have a written record of Jesus Christ? Oral tradition changes over time…IMO. That’s why Jesus states things like "it is written, or the scriptures cannot be broken). I think you are opening up a can of worms by mentioning the Apostle Paul as a Roman Catholic Christian, don’t you? Therefore, let’s get back to Jesus Christ.

 

[Church_Militant]

Thanks for the links, but I will not access links on this thread because they tend to derail the thread topic. Again, is Jesus Christ everything to the Christian? Does the Treasury of Merit contain the righteousness of Jesus Christ, the righteousness of Joseph and Mary, and the righteousness of all the Catholic Saints throughout history? I know the Roman Catholic Church dispenses the merits of others, but who’s righteousness is being dispensed by your church? I am saying that Jesus Christ’s righteousness filled the Treasury of Merit, overflowing over the top.

Then I will not waste my time offering you the simple and straight forward answers to your apparently specious posts.

If you cannot take the time to do your own homework, then it is fruitless and a waste of time to converse with you on this topic.

Read the articles and offer any further questions or comments, or admit that you’re not really interested in this discussion because you refuse to invest yourself in honest research.

 

[ralphinal]

Do you have any idea what the Treasury of Merit is all about? It’s not a straw man’s agrument, but the Roman Catholic system of salvation.

No, it is not the “system of salvation.”

Where do you get that idea?

Salvation is found in the following way. First, you must be baptised into Christ. Then, you must live the life Christ calls us all to. WHen you sin, you must seek forgiveness. You must do good things for others, including teaching the ignorant and caring for those less fortunate. You must believe that Jesus is who he claimed to be and follow his commandments. Then, when you die, assuming you cooperated with the Grace God granted to you, you will go to heaven.

the Treasury of Merit applies in only one area of this: attonement for sins. We all sin, and we must all ask forgiveness. However, sin damages both our relationship with God and our relationship with man. The Treasury of Merit spells out ways we can fix these issues.

 

[underdog]

Then I will not waste my time offering you the simple and straight forward answers to your apparently specious posts.

If you cannot take the time to do your own homework, then it is fruitless and a waste of time to converse with you on this topic.

Read the articles and offer any further questions or comments, or admit that you’re not really interested in this discussion because you refuse to invest yourself in honest research.

You can graciously bow out if you want to. Jesus Christ is supreme for the Christian. Please reflect on that statement during the Christmas season. It was nice to discuss things with you.

 

[ralphinal]

I understand that all merit that is found in the Treasury of Merit is because of grace, faith, and Christ done by Catholic saints. That’s a good point to clarify. However, you reject that the actual work of Christ in His life and death is not enough for the church, correct?

Only you say that. the Work of Christ was more than enough. However, we must accept that which he did for us. That includes founding a Church that has authority.

Where do you get your information on the Treasury of Merit?

 

[underdog]

Only you say that. the Work of Christ was more than enough. However, we must accept that which he did for us. That includes founding a Church that has authority.

Where do you get your information on the Treasury of Merit?

I heard it through the grape-vine. Is it correct? If not, please correct my understanding.

 

[inJESUS]

Is Jesus Christ enough for the Christian regardless of our church memberships? .

do you ask the same question to a JW?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Of course not. I already stated that I believe all of the Apostles found in the Bible are necessary to receive and believe. If it were not for the Apostles, how would we have a written record of Jesus Christ? Oral tradition changes over time…IMO. That’s why Jesus states things like "it is written, or the scriptures cannot be broken). I think you are opening up a can of worms by mentioning the Apostle Paul as a Roman Catholic Christian, don’t you? Therefore, let’s get back to Jesus Christ.

Paul tells us that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Do you believe that? If so, why do you reject the church?

The truth does not change.

The Church wrote, preserved, and selected the books of the new Testament which have provided you with the words of Jesus.

These words tell us that Jesus established a Church.

 

[ralphinal]

I heard it through the grape-vine. Is it correct? If not, please correct my understanding.

It is not correct. The Treasury of Merit is specifically applied to the doctrine of Indulgences. Here is a decent place to start.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement_(satisfaction_view

read the part about St Thomas Aquinas. It may help you understand better.

Here is an offical church document. It is hard to read, even for someone who is used to reading them. You can see that it is very, very limited in scope, compaired to salvation itself.
newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06id.htm

What you have confused is the teaching that I can help you reach heaven, which is the Communion of Saints, with some sort of idea that without my help, you cannot make it. Jesus’s death was sufficient to save all of mankind, past, preseant, and future, but as Paul says “My suffering can make up what is lacking in the Passion of Christ for you.” What was lacking? Our participation. We put him on the Cross with our sins. Now, Paul specifically is saying that I can take my pains and suffering, unite them with Jesus, and make something beautiful out of it. It is understood as redemptive suffering.

 

[Church_Militant]

You can graciously bow out if you want to.

I’m not doing anything of the kind.

you asked for answers…I gave them to you and now you want to essential lie and act like no one has answered you. It appears that you do not really want answers.

Jesus Christ is supreme for the Christian.

And in your scholarly opinion, what then does that mean with regard to us Catholics?

You apparently think you’ve found a cool term to bandy about as if you have found something in the Catholic faith that might be (misconstrued by anti-Catholics) as contrary to Christianity, yet that is patently not the case, as the articles I offered you plainly show.

I submit that you are not interested in truth.

I know of nothing at all in any authentic and authoritative Catholic teaching that ever indicates that our most holy faith is based upon anything other than Christ in the Holy Trinity, and nothing you have so far offered in any way indicates otherwise, though I’m sure you wish it did.

Please reflect on that statement during the Christmas season. It was nice to discuss things with you.

Suggest that you reflect on the following scriptures from the New Testament over the Christmas season and beyond.

**1 **Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain. **

2** Romans 16 :17 Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them.

3 1st Corinthians 1:11 For it hath been signified unto me, my brethren, of you, by them that are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
**
4** 2nd Corinthians 12:20 For I fear lest perhaps when I come I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found by you such as you would not. Lest perhaps contentions, envyings, animosities, dissensions, detractions, whisperings, swellings, seditions, be among you. **

5** Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects,

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

If it were not for the Apostles, how would we have a written record of Jesus Christ? .

Exactly.

St. Clement, the fourth pope, wrote this in about 95 AD:

The apostles have preached the gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe.

Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry.

newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm

 

[po18guy]

Please, let’s don’t stray from side issue like what we can eat or drink, the Apostle Peter, etc… but instead let’s focus on Jesus Christ.

You are ignoring the fact that Christ, the Savior of all humanity, founded a church. Jesus Christ intends for you to be a member of that Church, if you really believe in Him. What is your problem with this? It it extremely clear from the bible. It is clear that you dislike the Catholic Church. Too bad, as that is the Church that Jesus founded in order to properly follow Him and keep His commands.

I wonder, do you visit Protestant non-denominational sites and argue you same line? If so, at least you are consistent. If not, you are biased against the very Church that Christ founded and are in violation of His commands/ Which is it?

 

[Church_Militant]

You are ignoring the fact that Christ, the Savior of all humanity, founded a church. Jesus Christ intends for you to be a member of that Church, if you really believe in Him. What is your problem with this? It it extremely clear from the bible. It is clear that you dislike the Catholic Church. Too bad, as that is the Church that Jesus founded in order to properly follow Him and keep His commands.

I wonder, do you visit Protestant non-denominational sites and argue you same line? If so, at least you are consistent. If not, you are biased against the very Church that Christ founded and are in violation of His commands/ Which is it?

An interesting insight and observation.

I’d love to see this guy post this stuff on Baptist Board or whatever that place is. I doubt he’d do it though, do you?

 

[lynnareyno]

Thanks Lynn, but before you continue…please let me know who’s righteousness is contained in the Treasury of Merit? I think the official Roman Catholic teaching consists of metorious righteounsess of more than just Jesus Christ’s righteousness, correct?

No you are not.

 

[underdog]

It is not correct. The Treasury of Merit is specifically applied to the doctrine of Indulgences. Here is a decent place to start.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement_(satisfaction_view

read the part about St Thomas Aquinas. It may help you understand better.

Here is an offical church document. It is hard to read, even for someone who is used to reading them. You can see that it is very, very limited in scope, compaired to salvation itself.
newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06id.htm

What you have confused is the teaching that I can help you reach heaven, which is the Communion of Saints, with some sort of idea that without my help, you cannot make it. Jesus’s death was sufficient to save all of mankind, past, preseant, and future, but as Paul says “My suffering can make up what is lacking in the Passion of Christ for you.” What was lacking? Our participation. We put him on the Cross with our sins. Now, Paul specifically is saying that I can take my pains and suffering, unite them with Jesus, and make something beautiful out of it. It is understood as redemptive suffering.

Thanks for the help. But I will not be going to links at this time. I think you are only partially correct. When you consider all of the catholic sacraments, does the Church draw from the entire Tresury of Merit as the basis of all of the Catholic Sacraments? Maybe a Catholic Answer apologist can clarify this issue for us? I understand the Catholic faith is by faith, grace, and Christ. Works done in Christ is metiorous for the Christian. The sacrament are dispensed by the church by the good works done by Christ, Joseph and Mary, and Catholic Saints contained in the Treasury of Merit. The bottom line, the Treasury of Merit is more than what Christ merited for the Christian in His life and death, correct?