Christian & Buddhist Mysticism: What Are The Differences?

[JimR-OCDS]

The late Ravi Zacharias wrote a great book called, “Jesus Among Other Gods.”

Raised in India as a Hindu, he eventually converted to Christ and became one of the best teachers of comparative religious studies and an evangelists. He knew Buddhism very well and presented a sold comparison between who the Buddha claimed to be, and who Jesus claimed to be. Ravi Zacharias presents the difference in his book and in his preaching, which are available on YouTube.

Anyway, the main thing he wrote was how the Buddha had to find the way, where Jesus said, “I Am the way.” Jesus said he is the light and the life, he is the I AM, i.e. God. The Buddha never makes these claims. Also as Archbishop Fulton Sheen wrote, Christ coming was preannounced by the prophets of the Old Testament, the Buddha was not. Jesus coming was even announced in the East, not so the Buddha.

That being said, the main difference between Christianity and Buddhism of course is Christ Jesus. Buddhism existed before Jesus came, and although they have many revealed truths that are also in Christianity, they don’t have the fulness of revealed truth and for us Christ is the center of all truth.

Christian Mystics desire is union with God, which is Contemplation.

 

[ReaderT]

Since you’re Orthodox too, I’ll “talk Orthodox” in the reply here

What if Nirvana is simply contemplation of the created Beauty of the image of God within man?

If that’s what they’re doing, I think it’s different from Nirvana/Enlightenment as it’s usually defined in Buddhism, i.e. “the realization of non-self and emptiness”.

Nirvana could be a state of bliss, etc. but it would still lack contact with God.

I think a state of bliss without God is impossible - God is the author of bliss and good, and as we say in the Divine Liturgy, “every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from Thee, the Father of lights”

As for perceiving the world as an eternal mass of co-dependently arising phenomena, no-self, etc. that could be simply because they cannot access God’s creative energies which do the arising of the phenomena…

I might be wrong, but I think God’s energies are accessible to everyone that exists - this is how God is “everywhere present and filling all things”, sustaining everyone and all of creation. But this might be incorrect.

As for rebirth, the way they define it, it’s not actually the rebirth of the same person/soul. So it’s in no way conflicting with Christianity.

You’re right that they don’t believe the same “soul” keeps coming back. I’m no scholar on the finer points of Buddhist reincarnation doctrine, so I’ll refrain from commenting.

However, I don’t think the Dalai Lama is the best example, since the Lama is, ultimately, a political leader. I’m an Eastern Orthodox, and I see you are too, and I’d say that if we’re looking for wisdom, we can often find it better by looking at a practicing monk than the patriarch of our respective churches wouldn’t you think so?

Hahaha, I understand the point about the patriarchs (not that I judge them), but I brought up the Dalai Lama because he’s supposed to be an enlightened Bodhisattva, right? He is the only Buddhist I know of that is supposed to be enlightened (there are of course others), and yet he doesn’t have the serene peace that is supposed to go with enlightenment.

 

[ReaderT]

Centering prayer gets very close to Buddhism is the sense of silencing all thought to look inwards to ourselves for prayer, whereas Christmas prayer is to look outwards to God

“Christmas” prayer?

 

[Shakuhachi]

Yes. But God remains intimate and within as well as out yonder in heaven somewhere.

 

[Shakuhachi]

Yes, I am not arguing that. I just want to assert the immanence of God as well as the transcendence. As far as Buddhism is concerned, I just think it has a different purpose and understanding than Christianity though some of its methods and morals may be the same.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Interior Prayer as St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross taught, is the deepest form of prayer and where God speaks to us best.

God dwells within and being in his presence is the desire of Christians called toward deeper levels of prayer.

Centering Prayer was originally called “Quiet Prayer,” or “Prayer of Quiet.” See the 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Prayer of Quiet

Centering Prayer or Quiet Prayer as it was called, goes back to the 4th Century Mystics like Abba Isaac and St John Cassia.

 

[Randolph]

Interior Prayer as St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross taught, is the deepest form of prayer and where God speaks to us best.

God dwells within and being in his presence is the desire of Christians called toward deeper levels of prayer.

Centering Prayer was originally called “Quiet Prayer,” or “Prayer of Quiet.” See the 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia. https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12608b.htm

Centering Prayer or Quiet Prayer as it was called, goes back to the 4th Century Mystics like Abba Isaac and St John Cassia.

I beg your pardon. Centering Prayer and Quiet Prayer are NOT the same. Centering Prayer was originated by a Trappist Monk named Thomas Keating in the 1970’s. Fathers Menninger and Pennington further developed it. Centering Prayer to say the least is very controversial.

Father Dreher wrote an excellent article on it.

The Danger of Centering Prayer | Catholic Answers Magazine

Excerpts from the article.

“… Centering prayer originated in St. Joseph’s Abbey, a Trappist monastery in Spencer, Massachusetts. During the twenty years (1961–1981) when Keating was abbot, St. Joseph’s held dialogues with Buddhist and Hindu representatives, and a Zen master gave a week-long retreat to the monks. A former Trappist monk who had become a Transcendental Meditation teacher also gave a session to the monks.

Many people assume centering prayer is compatible with Catholic tradition, but in fact the techniques of centering prayer are neither Christian nor prayer. They are at the level of human faculties and as such are an operation of man, not of God. The deception and dangers can be grave.

Centering prayer differs from Christian prayer in that the intent of the technique is to bring the practitioner to the center of his own being . There he is, supposedly, to experience the presence of the God who indwells him. Christian prayer, on the contrary, centers upon God in a relational way, as someone apart from oneself. The Christian knows a God who is personal, yet who, as Creator, infinitely transcends his creature. God is wholly other than man. It is also crucial to Christian prayer that God engages man’s whole being in response, not just his interior life. In the view of centering prayer, the immanence of God somehow makes the transcendence of God available to human techniques and experience.

Centering prayer is essentially a form of self-hypnosis. It makes use of a “mantra,” a word repeated over and over to focus the mind while striving by one’s will to go deep within oneself. The effects are a hypnotic-like state: concentration upon one thing, disengagement from other stimuli, a high degree of openness to suggestion, a psychological and physiological condition that externally resembles sleep but in which consciousness is interiorized and the mind subject to suggestion…”

 

[ragus93]

The late Ravi Zacharias wrote a great book called, “Jesus Among Other Gods.”

Thank you, I have added it to a list of books on this topic. I have Ravi’s, and then I have two more: Zen Way, Jesus Way by Tucker Callaway who is a Protestant Christian who went to Japan to minister, and ended up practicing Zazen and studying Buddhism, and he clarifies the differences in a less friendly way let’s say, and then I also have The Still Point: Reflections on Zen and Christian Mysticism by William Johnston who also studied Buddhism, but is a Catholic.

That being said, the main difference between Christianity and Buddhism of course is Christ Jesus.

I agree, what I am trying to ask here is to figure out what Buddhists experience upon attaining Nirvana from the Christian POV. Is the experience just contemplation of the image of God inside man, but does not reach beyond? Or how would we explain it in a Christian framework?

 

[ragus93]

If that’s what they’re doing, I think it’s different from Nirvana/Enlightenment as it’s usually defined in Buddhism, i.e. “the realization of non-self and emptiness”.

Well “the realization of non-self and emptiness” is a way of describing the experience, which is ultimately ineffable right? I think that because they lack God’s revelation, and during the meditation practice they close themselves off from the experience, they can only get so far on the mystical path.

One thing I like about our faith is how we have a more comprehensive framework that explains and understands other faiths in their true light. So I’m thinking that in the case of Buddhism, they may very well get to the image of God within, but they fail to see the Author who sustains that central point of the self into being. So it really does look, because of that reason, as if the self is not grounded in anything, just like the other phenomena - hence no-self and emptiness.

I think a state of bliss without God is impossible - God is the author of bliss and good, and as we say in the Divine Liturgy, “ every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from Thee, the Father of lights ”

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. As I said, us Christians we understand that they are only contemplating created Beauty - their own innermost self. And since that is created by God, it is good - hence the bliss. But it is not the same bliss one would experience in theosis, since there is no contact with the Creator.

I might be wrong, but I think God’s energies are accessible to everyone that exists - this is how God is “everywhere present and filling all things”, sustaining everyone and all of creation. But this might be incorrect.

Yes, I have the same understanding. But I think those energies are not “visible” to everyone subjectively, even though they are active in everyone.

Hahaha, I understand the point about the patriarchs (not that I judge them), but I brought up the Dalai Lama because he’s supposed to be an enlightened Bodhisattva, right? He is the only Buddhist I know of that is supposed to be enlightened (there are of course others), and yet he doesn’t have the serene peace that is supposed to go with enlightenment.

Ok, I see. Yes, I can agree then. I don’t think the Dalai Lama is as credible as many in the West make him out to be. The previous Lamas ran a dictatorship pretty much in Tibet. So if we are to go by their fruits…

 

[JimR-OCDS]

They are the same and the article you posted by Fr Dreher has been debunked long ago and it borders on being fraudulent.

Everything he wrote was false and although just being an hour away from St. Joseph’s Abbey, he never bothered to go and speak with the monks there. I’ve made retreats there and spoke to the monks and when I mentioned Fr Dreher’s article, they just rolled their eyes.

 

[Shakuhachi]

I agree, what I am trying to ask here is to figure out what Buddhists experience upon attaining Nirvana from the Christian POV. Is the experience just contemplation of the image of God inside man, but does not reach beyond? Or how would we explain it in a Christian framework?

I don’t think we can can say anything about it. Even Buddhist do not agree or say anything about it that really describes anything. I am not even sure we can call it mysticism. What do we mean by that.

From what I understand Buddhism is about seeing reality clearly, transcending the ego and breaking attachments that bring suffering. That is why I say there may be areas of overlap but the metaphysics is entirely different.

And no comment from me on Centering Prayer and especially Fr Dreher other than his analysis is misinformation.

 

[mercyalways]

Yes. But God remains intimate and within as well as out yonder in heaven somewhere.

Hi, you mention finding God within.

The Catholic church has always taught that God is separate from the beings He created. Utterly separate, although of course many people have written poetically about God being within.

However, Christianity’s God is not possible in Buddhism, which argues that you and I are essentially indistinguishable .

 

[mercyalways]

Zen Way, Jesus Way by Tucker Callaway

I had the other books you mentioned, but thank you for pointing this one out. I just ordered it.

I don’t think the Dalai Lama is as credible as many in the West make him out to be.

It is believed Dalai Lamas are reincarnations of earlier Dalai Lamas, so you may want to pick up Martyr in Tibet, the biography of Father Maurice Tornay. The book states that Father Burdin was poisoned at at meal given by the Dalai Lama in Tibet in the early 1900s. Of course, Father Tornay himself was later martyred in Tibet, hence the title.

 

[Shakuhachi]

The Catholic church has always taught that God is separate from the beings He created.

So God is everywhere but within us?
he divine indwelling is the Trinity present in the soul of a just person. In 1 Corinthians 3:16, St. Paul asks, “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?”

The Catechism of the Catholic Church in paragraphs 1265 teaches, “Baptism … makes” a person “a temple of the Holy Spirit.” The Holy Spirit is emphasized because He is sent by God the Father, as St. Paul in Galatians 4:6 [writes]: “God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba, Father.’” In John 14:16–17, Christ [says](, “I will ask the Father and he will give you another Advocate to dwell with you forever, the Spirit of truth. … [Y]ou shall know him, because he will dwell with you and be in you.”

Divine Indwelling

 

[ReaderT]

One thing I like about our faith is how we have a more comprehensive framework that explains and understands other faiths in their true light. So I’m thinking that in the case of Buddhism, they may very well get to the image of God within, but they fail to see the Author who sustains that central point of the self into being. So it really does look, because of that reason, as if the self is not grounded in anything, just like the other phenomena - hence no-self and emptiness.

I think we’d have to agree to disagree then - I seem to take their words perhaps more concretely and you have a more metaphorical understanding of them. If they say “non-self and emptiness”, that seems (to me) to imply personlessness, which is the opposite of what we believe.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. As I said, us Christians we understand that they are only contemplating created Beauty - their own innermost self.

That may be what they are contemplating; I simply don’t know being that I’ve never experienced it and don’t have Buddhist friends to elaborate

 

[JimR-OCDS]

St John of the Cross called it “detaching from the appetites.” The “ego,” wasn’t in the vocabulary at his time.

 

[Kei]

The soul enlivens the body, but God enlivens the soul.
He is so kind and brings His gifts to the children of Adam very mercifully. Like a spring bringing rain on all, the just and the wicked alike are given much.

I must say, however, that the devil is fine giving the appearance of some fruit for a worse purpose (a form of deception). Is the fruit constant? Do they continue to grow in Virtue? Etc are important points to consider.

Not to say that “nirvana” is demonic. Perhaps it is purely natural. Buddhists probably believe it is “natural”, anyway. Without someone to explain just what “nirvana” is, who has actually experienced it, it is all the harder to analyze.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

From the CCC

2781 When we pray to the Father, we are in communion with him and with his Son, Jesus Christ.33 Then we know and recognize him with an ever new sense of wonder. The first phrase of the Our Father is a blessing of adoration before it is a supplication. For it is the glory of God that we should recognize him as “Father,” the true God. We give him thanks for having revealed his name to us, for the gift of believing in it, and for the indwelling of his Presence in us.

Many places in Scripture confirm this;

Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 1 Corinthians 3:16

The Church has always taught that God dwells within us.

You don’t have to look out into the cosmos for God, for he dwells within.

 

[Randolph]

They are the same and the article you posted by Fr Dreher has been debunked long ago and it borders on being fraudulent.

Everything he wrote was false and although just being an hour away from St. Joseph’s Abbey, he never bothered to go and speak with the monks there. I’ve made retreats there and spoke to the monks and when I mentioned Fr Dreher’s article, they just rolled their eyes.

Centering Prayer was in fact originated by Keating, Pennington, and Menninger in the 1970’s. There is no direct connection between Centering Prayer and Quiet Prayer as you falsely claimed. They are NOT the same. Specifically, what did Father Dreher write that was false? The rolling of the eyes of the monks was at best that they disagreed with Father Dreher. Specifically, what points did the monks disagree with Father Dreher? While we are at it, you tell me specifically how was the article written by Father Dreher debunked?

Fathet Dreher was not the one person that warns Catholics of the dangers of Centering Prayers. Here are other sources that spoke to the same:

https://www.ncregister.com/news/why-centering-prayer-falls-short-of-true-intimacy-with-christ?amp

Here’s Why I Disagree With Centering Prayer | Art of Living Well

Is 'Centering Prayer' Catholic? | Catholic Answers Magazine

Excerpt from above article:

“. The idea that the self and God are the same thing** should eliminate centering prayer as an option for Catholics. But there is a second reason why centering prayer is incompatible with Catholic teaching: it says that the ultimate goal of the spiritual life is the “realization” that we are God.

In his book Open Mind, Open Heart , Fr. Keating tells us, “The chief thing that separates us from God is the thought that we are separated from him” (33). This is false.

A scrupulous person, for example, may think he is separated from God and not be. More importantly, Sacred Scripture makes it quite clear what separates us from God. Isaiah tells us that “your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you” (Isaiah 59:2; see also Psalm 66:18; I John 1:8-9, etc.) The Catechism concurs:

God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end (1037).

To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him forever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell” (1033).

Sin separates us from God—nothing else. But Fr. Keating says we are really never separated from God to begin with; we only “think we are.” Thus, the spiritual life is not a matter of conversion in order to become something you are not, namely, a saint in union with God. Rather, it is simply to “realize” what you always have been and always will be: God…”

 

[Shakuhachi]

That is all a strawman. But this ha been argued all to no point.