Christian pastors faces death penalty in Iran

[scipio337]

Well what is the difference in the two approaches? It’s a valid question.

I suspect our Protestant brethren could learn something from our Priests of how to minister in Iran.

I guess it helps if you’re born a Chaldean Catholic, huh?

I’m sure if a Chaldean Catholic converted from Islam, they would face the same charges. This man isn’t charged for being a pastor. He’s being charged for leaving Islam.

 

[qui_est_ce]

You don’t have to “buy the claim”…it’s not your faith tradition…but that is the claim Muslims make for their holy book…the true Holy Qur’an only exists in the Arabic…all “translations” into other languages are “commentary” and not the “true Qur’an”.

What you “buy” or reject doesn’t change that…no translation has the depth of meaning in other languages that the Arabic has for Muslims.

I understand that. I wasn’t really clear about my objection. My objection is not that the holy book exists only in Arabic. What I don’t buy is that if we read certain verses in English that say for example, “Kill those who turn away from Islam” don’t really mean that because it’s a bad translation.

 

[Publisher]

I understand that. I wasn’t really clear about my objection. My objection is not that the holy book exists only in Arabic. What I don’t buy is that if we read certain verses in English that say for example, “Kill those who turn away from Islam” don’t really mean that because it’s a bad translation.

Ahhh…that I don’t know…I’ve read “Heart of the Koran” and “The Essential Koran”, in both books the authors state that the depth of meaning is layered in Arabic and carries with it more depth of meaning than what is revealed in English translations of the Qur’an.

The Sufis say that only in the Arabic can the layer upon layer of meaning and spiritual depth of the Qur’an be plummed. From all that I’ve read the deeper meanings of the Qur’an are lost when translated into other languages. Deeper spiritual meanings are lost…the word “jihad” and it’s meaning CAN be understood to “war against” injustice…not necessarily engage in violent actions…but wage war by righteous living to withstand evil.

Personally, I don’t try to presume to understand the Qur’an except through those Muslim writers I am familiar with…English and American writers who happen to be Muslim show a deep spirituality I have found not even hinted at when I read non-Muslim “commentaries” on the Qur’an.

I choose to give Muslims the benefit of the doubt in interpreting their own holy book rather than impose my very western understanding I tend to impart to translations of the Bible.

Since I don’t speak nor read Arabic, I can only bow to the wisdom of those that do in their statments that an English translation of the Qur’an loses so much depth in meaning than if read and understood in Arabic.

I would rather have a knowledgeable Catholic explain Catholic teachings than a hostile Protestant explain it to me…so too, I would rather seek understanding of Islam from a Muslim, than a hostile Christian telling me what they believe.

 

[Daralharb]

Ahhh…that I don’t know…I’ve read “Heart of the Koran” and “The Essential Koran”, in both books the authors state that the depth of meaning is layered in Arabic and carries with it more depth of meaning than what is revealed in English translations of the Qur’an.

The Sufis say that only in the Arabic can the layer upon layer of meaning and spiritual depth of the Qur’an be plummed. From all that I’ve read the deeper meanings of the Qur’an are lost when translated into other languages. Deeper spiritual meanings are lost…the word “jihad” and it’s meaning CAN be understood to “war against” injustice…not necessarily engage in violent actions…but wage war by righteous living to withstand evil.

Personally, I don’t try to presume to understand the Qur’an except through those Muslim writers I am familiar with…English and American writers who happen to be Muslim show a deep spirituality I have found not even hinted at when I read non-Muslim “commentaries” on the Qur’an.

I choose to give Muslims the benefit of the doubt in interpreting their own holy book rather than impose my very western understanding I tend to impart to translations of the Bible.

Since I don’t speak nor read Arabic, I can only bow to the wisdom of those that do in their statments that an English translation of the Qur’an loses so much depth in meaning than if read and understood in Arabic.

I would rather have a knowledgeable Catholic explain Catholic teachings than a hostile Protestant explain it to me…so too, I would rather seek understanding of Islam from a Muslim, than a hostile Christian telling me what they believe.

What if a Christian merely repeats what a Muslim said? Are we now denigrating the messenger in lieu of the message’s content, however “correct”?

What you are describing is a world where commentaries do not exist, whereas we live in a world where they do. I could take an English commentary on the Quran, and not need to read Arabic. Especially if the commentary was written by a Muslim polyglot who is a scholar.

Funny you say all this, considering that the entirety of the Muslim world pretty much understands the Quran as it has been accused of “negative” portrayal here. What Americans and others MEAN to say is “That is not western Islam”.
Only difference is, the western Muslim is the one who often doesn’t read a lick of Arabic, nor has access to masjid which is teaching traditional schools of thought.

When Muslims say that Islam is a religion of peace, they mean that once the entire world is subdued to it, the world will be peaceful. Hence distinctions such a Dar Al-Islam (House of Peace[via submission to Allah waw al-Rasul{Mohammed}]) and Dar Al-Harb (House of War- that’s you and me, brutha).

They are a religion of physical scapegoating which blames everything on the physical. “If it wasn’t for Israel… there’d be world peace!”, “if not for X… there’d be world peace”, eventually leading to “There is no peace until Islam is victorious”.

Propaganda is only as good as the person hearing it is stupid and lazy to not investigate.

I’m neither stupid or lazy, and Islam isn’t peaceful, and western Muslims are very poor at following the “deen” at large, unless we realize the application of patience, and Taqqiyah.

 

[Publisher]

What if a Christian merely repeats what a Muslim said? Are we now denigrating the messenger in lieu of the message’s content, however “correct”?

What you are describing is a world where commentaries do not exist, whereas we live in a world where they do. I could take an English commentary on the Quran, and not need to read Arabic. Especially if the commentary was written by a Muslim polyglot who is a scholar.

Funny you say all this, considering that the entirety of the Muslim world pretty much understands the Quran as it has been accused of “negative” portrayal here. What Americans and others MEAN to say is “That is not western Islam”.
Only difference is, the western Muslim is the one who often doesn’t read a lick of Arabic, nor has access to masjid which is teaching traditional schools of thought.

When Muslims say that Islam is a religion of peace, they mean that once the entire world is subdued to it, the world will be peaceful. Hence distinctions such a Dar Al-Islam (House of Peace[via submission to Allah waw al-Rasul{Mohammed}]) and Dar Al-Harb (House of War- that’s you and me, brutha).

They are a religion of physical scapegoating which blames everything on the physical. “If it wasn’t for Israel… there’d be world peace!”, “if not for X… there’d be world peace”, eventually leading to “There is no peace until Islam is victorious”.

Propaganda is only as good as the person hearing it is stupid and lazy to not investigate.

I’m neither stupid or lazy, and Islam isn’t peaceful, and western Muslims are very poor at following the “deen” at large, unless we realize the application of patience, and Taqqiyah.

As I said…I’d rather try to understand Islam from a Muslim who wanted to take the time to teach me, than from a hostile Christian that provided a very skewed understanding of Islam…how you choose to understand Islam and by what commentaries and teachers you choose to employ is up to you…I don’t necessarily think my way is “better”…but is works and makes sense for me…so you too must find that medium to use if you wish to understand Islam…I very well may be wrong…but I’d rather trust my own counsel on the matter…as you yours rather than mine.

To me it’s like seeking to understand Christianity with only reading the book “The Dark Side of Christianity” and think from reading that book…I now understand Christianity…I get a limited understanding of Christianites “dark side”…but not an understanding of the spirit and teaching of the man Jesus.

Peace to you friend.

 

[iamrefreshed]

As I said…I’d rather try to understand Islam from a Muslim who wanted to take the time to teach me, than from a hostile Christian that provided a very skewed understanding of Islam…

While that’s a noble gesture it is flawed.

Just because you choose to listen to a believer doesn’t get you the truth…just their truth.

Go to Saudi Arabia and ask a Wahabbi Muslim believer to teach you Islam.

 

[He_Man]

Well what is the difference in the two approaches? It’s a valid question.

I suspect our Protestant brethren could learn something from our Priests of how to minister in Iran.

Likewise, our Muslim brethren could learn a lot from us in the “don’t act like neanderthals and kill other religion’s clergy/coverts” department…

 

[Publisher]

While that’s a noble gesture it is flawed.

Just because you choose to listen to a** believer doesn’t get you the truth**…just their truth.

Go to Saudi Arabia and ask a Wahabbi Muslim believer to teach you Islam.

Exactly…listening to a “believer”…Catholic or Muslim won’t get me the truth…just THEIR truth…Catholic or Muslim…however it will provide me with a perspective of where THEY are coming from…I think I understand a bit better where you are coming from…especially with the “rolling eyes” emoticon…I’d rather trust a Muslim in explaining their beliefs than what you tell me about Muslims.

“noble…flawed”…I’ll take it.

 

[scipio337]

Exactly…listening to a “believer”…Catholic or Muslim won’t get me the truth…just THEIR truth…Catholic or Muslim…however it will provide me with a perspective of where THEY are coming from…I think I understand a bit better where you are coming from…especially with the “rolling eyes” emoticon…I’d rather trust a Muslim in explaining their beliefs than what you tell me about Muslims.

“noble…flawed”…I’ll take it.

So anyways, back to the topic at hand: do you trust major schools of Islamic jurisprudence and authoritative hadiths that call for the death of an apostate from Islam?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Ahhh…that I don’t know…I’ve read “Heart of the Koran” and “The Essential Koran”, in both books the authors state that the depth of meaning is layered in Arabic and carries with it more depth of meaning than what is revealed in English translations of the Qur’an.

The Sufis say that only in the Arabic can the layer upon layer of meaning and spiritual depth of the Qur’an be plummed. From all that I’ve read the deeper meanings of the Qur’an are lost when translated into other languages. Deeper spiritual meanings are lost…the word “jihad” and it’s meaning CAN be understood to “war against” injustice…not necessarily engage in violent actions…but wage war by righteous living to withstand evil.

Personally, I don’t try to presume to understand the Qur’an except through those Muslim writers I am familiar with…English and American writers who happen to be Muslim show a deep spirituality I have found not even hinted at when I read non-Muslim “commentaries” on the Qur’an.

I choose to give Muslims the benefit of the doubt in interpreting their own holy book rather than impose my very western understanding I tend to impart to translations of the Bible.

Since I don’t speak nor read Arabic, I can only bow to the wisdom of those that do in their statments that an English translation of the Qur’an loses so much depth in meaning than if read and understood in Arabic.

I would rather have a knowledgeable Catholic explain Catholic teachings than a hostile Protestant explain it to me…so too, I would rather seek understanding of Islam from a Muslim, than a hostile Christian telling me what they believe.

I definitely agree with your post. The problem is, there is no authority, and different Islam groups interpret the passages different ways. American Muslims certainly practice their faith differently than Afghans, many of whom are illiterate anyway. Saudi Arabia maintains that women can’t drive. In France, Muslim women think the veil is part of their religion. In Palestine, Muslims are told they’ll go to Heaven if they blow themselves up.

What little I know about the Quran and Islam I have learned either from Muslims on CAF, Bosnian Muslims I personally know, and what I’ve seen Imams say on the news.

A lot of mixed messages, many outright violent.

The Qurans taken away and burned contained extremist and violent messages. It has not yet been revealed what exactly the messages contained. Hopefully they were retained for intelligence purposes.

 

[Publisher]

So anyways, back to the topic at hand: do you trust major schools of Islamic jurisprudence and authoritative hadiths that call for the death of an apostate from Islam?

No more than I trust any “true believer” or school of thought of any religion who calls for the death of any apostate.

I have held this pastor “in the Light” since I’ve first read of his arrest and death sentence…and I will continue to do so…

 

[scipio337]

No more than I trust any “true believer” or school of thought of any religion who calls for the death of any apostate.

I have held this pastor “in the Light” since I’ve first read of his arrest and death sentence…and I will continue to do so…

So, by what Islamic source do you consider the major schools of jurisprudence (who, like the Vatican, give authoritative interpretation of law/scripture) invalid?

I’m not sure what you mean by “in the Light”.

 

[qui_est_ce]

No more than I trust any “true believer” or school of thought of any religion who calls for the death of any apostate.

I have held this pastor “in the Light” since I’ve first read of his arrest and death sentence…and I will continue to do so…

Now you are picking and choosing who to believe.

Asking a Catholic what they believe is not the same as what the Church actually teaches.

This is the reason Catholics have a problem with Protestants and nonCatholic religions. There is no authority, so anybody basically interprets things for themselves, or follows a pastor, yogi, or immam, etc. You’ve got thousands of interpretations, each valid for the person who chooses it.

 

[Publisher]

Now you are picking and choosing who to believe.

Asking a Catholic what they believe is not the same as what the Church actually teaches.

This is the reason Catholics have a problem with Protestants and nonCatholic religions. There is no authority, so anybody basically interprets things for themselves, or follows a pastor, yogi, or immam, etc. You’ve got thousands of interpretations, each valid for the person who chooses it.

Friend, we all “pick and choose” whom to believe based on our observations, experience and estimation of their character and depth of their faith…even you.

 

[scipio337]

Friend, we all “pick and choose” whom to believe based on our observations and estimation of their character and depth of their faith…even you.

But one would hope you have a valid reason for why you pick that person.

Its the equivalent of saying “I know that the Pope and Magesterium teach that, and there is a history of their authority but a Catholic I know told me different!”

 

[Publisher]

But one would hope you have a valid reason for why you pick that person.

Its the equivalent of saying “I know that the Pope and Magesterium teach that, and there is a history of their authority but a Catholic I know told me different!”

Most definitely I have “valid reason” why I pick certain people over others in explaining and interpreting faith traditions they espouse…as do you and “qui est ce”.

Your second point…I don’t understand…I see no “equivalent” of your statement to what I stated…but then…I sometimes am very dense.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Most definitely I have “valid reason” why I pick certain people over others in explaining and interpreting faith traditions they espouse…as do you and “qui est ce”.

Well, since Mecca and Medina are in Saudi Arabia, and ALL Muslims believe they are called to visit the Holy Cities in Saudi control, I choose to believe the Islam taught by the Wahabbists. They are, after all, the keepers of Islam.

So, I believe, all Muslims want Jews and Christians forcibly under their control as converts or Dhimminis.

And that comes straight from the most devout people in Islam.

 

[scipio337]

Most definitely I have “valid reason” why I pick certain people over others in explaining and interpreting faith traditions they espouse…as do you and “qui est ce”.

Your second point…I don’t understand…I see no “equivalent” of your statement to what I stated…but then…I sometimes am very dense.

I was asking why you are so willing to dismiss all of the major schools of jurisprudence (fiqh), and the authoritative hadiths.

Because you know someone who doesn’t believe what they teach?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Friend, we all “pick and choose” whom to believe based on our observations, experience and estimation of their character and depth of their faith…even you.

In that case, your observations re: the Religion of Peace are no more valid than those who believe Islam is the Religion of Violence.

 

[Publisher]

I was asking why you are so willing to dismiss all of the major schools of jurisprudence (fiqh), and the authoritative hadiths.

Because you know someone who doesn’t believe what they teach?

Ahh…I do not “dismiss” it…there is no monolithic understanding of Islamic thought embraced by all Muslims…the “radical” Muslim is in the minority as I understand. Those discussions I have been involved in and those Muslim clerics I have sat with in the “Spiritual Formation Group” I belong to have expressed a much different understanding of Islam than have those Catholics on this board…Saudi Islam is different than the more moderate…and larger group of Muslims in other parts of the world…and much different than those Muslims in the US.

The Muslims in SA are in my estimation about a good a representative of Islam as are those “Christians” in the Middle East that erupt into violence and vandalism in Bethlehem or in Ireland or Mexico. Or those “Christians” that promote voilence and hate toward Jews…perhaps that is a failing of mine…I tend to view those that “walk the walk” a better representation of any faith tradition than those who simply “talk the talk”.

Those Muslims I have personally met…and prayed with…and discussed the things of the Spirit paint a much different picture than those Protestants and Catholics paint when they seek to portray Islam for in my opinion, less than honest and wholesome reasons.

You may have a different understanding…and I’m good with that…your beliefs concerning the matter don’t necessarily “resonate” with me as accurate and free of any religious bias.

The pastor that faces death in Iran for his faith speaks more of him than those that seek to silence his voice…I wish there were more Christians who lived their faith with grace and mercy towards others…I don’t think that is any more likely to happen soon than I expect Muslims to truly be “people of peace”…those who ignore the passages in the Qur’an concerning mercy and compassion to me no more exemplify Islam than those Christians who ignore the words of Jesus concerning how to react to those who “speak evil againt them” or “compel them to walk the second mile” or “turn the other cheek”…
exemplify Christianity.

You and I may disagree concerning these things…and I’m ok with that…I have to live the precepts of my faith as you do yours…but we both are “outsiders” to the situation occuring in Saudi Arabia.

I hold this brave man of faith in the Light…we all could learn much from him.