Christianity: White Supremacists At Prayer?

[Maxirad]

The current Pope is from South America.

Well, Pope Francis is ethnically Italian.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

The current Pope is from South America.

Well, Pope Francis is ethnically Italian.

Hmm. Does that make him white? Or is he Mediterranean?

 

[Annie]

At the same time some Christians were using the Bible to justify chattel slavery, other Christians were using the Bible to condemn slavery.

Christians abolished slavery; other people are to this day kidnapping Christians and enslaving them.

The majority of Christians throughout history and the world have not had anything to do with “white supremacy,” and your citation of a miniscule number of Christians in a small part of one nation using the Bible to justify slavery of black people as some sort of justification of what this prof is doing is specious.

 

[JonNC]

No, but there certainly is a white Christianity in the South. I was surprised when I met someone from Louisiana who was looking for a Methodist Church in our town. I pointed him towards one only to be told it is a ‘black church’.

I grew up in the Lutheran tradition. At no time, ever, was there an air of white supremacy. My dad, who was the pastor, would never have tolerated such.
If the “professor” is going to make a broad brush accusation, he should expect a pushback grounded In truth.

 

[JimG]

It’s off topic, but if I recall correctly, Israel was attacked simultaneously by three Arab nations. But Israel fought back vigorously, and won the “6-day” war. Had the Arab states not attacked, and had there not been attacks on Israel from the Golan Heights, things might be different.

 

[stpurl]

Wow. So because you met somebody in Louisiana who spoke of a ‘black Church” in your town, somehow the ‘entire South” has a “white Christianity’.

Was the Church AME? African Methodist Episcopal? It would, then, be a historically black congregation with its own particular traditions.

There are Charismatic Catholic Churches who are as Catholic as the local very ‘smells and bells” OF Churches, but while a Catholic could fulfil his or her obligation at either, a Catholic —man or woman, white, black, or ‘other’, rich or poor, etc might feel very ‘out of place’ at one, and ‘more comfortable’ in another.

If there is an AME church in your town, there is probably ALSO another Methodist Church —or even more than one—which the man from Louisiana would have felt more comfortable with. It might even have had a quite diverse congregation in it.

If you think a black person might be uncomfortable in a ‘mainly white’ church, at least on a first visit or when already ‘far from home’, perhaps you could consider a white person might be equally uncomfortable in the very same way among a mainly black church, not because of feeling superior or disliking the black people, but because there HAS been historically at times bad things that have happened between the races.

Remember, the AME churches had their start because the members had felt bias against them, as black people. To have a white person come in might make THEM feel very uncomfortable.

There is more than one point of view to consider, and often the quick urge to ‘find fault’ or point fingers shows our OWN bias and not the truth of the individual.

 

[Motherwit]

“What makes the emerging situation in the West similar to what they fled? After all, every society has rules and taboos and mechanisms to enforce them. What unnerves those who lived under Soviet communism is this similarity: Elites and elite institutions are abandoning old-fashioned liberalism, based in defending the rights of the individual, and replacing it with a progressive creed that regards justice in terms of groups. It encourages people to identify with groups—ethnic, sexual, and otherwise—and to think of Good and Evil as a matter of power dynamics among the groups. A utopian vision drives these progressives, one that compels them to seek to rewrite history and reinvent language to reflect their ideals of social justice.”

The Church was part of winning Communist countries their freedom precisely because it regarded their dilemma as a group oppressed by another group. Individualism regarded as a good in and of itself is a scourge in the same way as communism. It is basically ‘survival of the fittest’ at work.

I do think there is a toxic use of Christianity in western capitalism. The idea that capitalism is endorsed by God and can’t ever be immoral. Or that prosperity is a sign of Gods pleasure with someone. I disagree that the Church’s patriarchal structure is the source of the problem though.

 

[Victoria33]

I’d be careful on this topic, we know very much who in our modern day, oppresses others, don’ teven see some as total human beings and that their lives mean nothing really. These too, are real dangers of secularism.

 

[JonNC]

The Golan Heights is part of Syria but has been occupied by Israel since 1967. There are illegal settlements in the area. It occurs to me that I do not know where in the world you are from, but if you are from the US you may consider the Golan Heights to be part of Israel, as the American government recognised it as such last year. Every other country in the world, as well as the UN, the EU, and the Arab League, regard the Golan Heights as being part of Syria.

And Alsace-Lorraine Is really part of Germany but us occupied by France.
When a country aggressively attacks another country and loses, it isn’t unusual for land to be ceded to the country that won.

 

[Victoria33]

In regards to the Golan heights, I did see that the region indeed has a lot of history, we might ordinarily think of the time when these countries were divided up by Picot-Sykes or whatever else, as being the start of these nations but that might not be a full view. I was reading an article yesterday that discussed its history.

 

[EmilyAlexandra]

There are several problems with this:

1. Alsace-Lorraine, which does not even exist any more, is in no way “really part of Germany”, and nor is it “occupied by France”. Alsace-Lorraine was formally ceded to France by Germany in 1919. Germany makes no claim to the French territory formerly known as Alsace-Lorraine. Every country in the world, as well as every international organisation of which France and/or Germany are members, accepts the legitimacy of France’s claim to the territory.
2. The Israeli occupation of the Golan Heights took place after Syria had agreed to a ceasefire.
3. Syria did not “cede” territory to Israel. Cession of territory requires the consent of both states.
4. Israel does not claim to occupy the Golan Heights as part of a defensive strategy against Syria; it claims that the Golan Heights is part of the lawful territory of the State of Israel.

I would add that this is all getting very far from the original topic!

 

[JonNC]

nternational organisation of which France and/or Germany are members, accepts the legitimacy of France’s claim to the territory.

Of course they do. The allies won the war. Had Germany won the war, the reverse would be true.

The Israeli occupation of the Golan Heights took place after Syria had agreed to a ceasefire.

Why did Syria have to agree to a cease fire? Because they and other Arab states attacked Israel and Israel won.

Syria did not “cede” territory to Israel. Cession of territory requires the consent of both states.

No defeated country freely consents to cede land. They lost. They have no choice.

Israel does not claim to occupy the Golan Heights as part of a defensive strategy against Syria; it claims that the Golan Heights is part of the lawful territory of the State of Israel.

At first they did, and for good reason. They were attacked by Syria. Now they own it.

I would add that this is all getting very far from the original topic

I agree

 

[Sarcelle]

Not just in Protestant Churches but in Catholic Churches too.

I remember an elderly priest who told me of visiting Louisiana and going to mass. The black parishioners were required to sit at the back pews the white parishioners in the front. That was the rule. The ushers would kick you out if you didn’t abide by this rule.

Of course, this was back in the 60s.

 

[Annie]

Of course, this was back in the 60s.

Thank you for admitting that.

If we are not allowed to bring up the racist excesses of Democrats and the Democratic Party, because they happened long ago and the DP has changed, then let’s not bring up the same from others, who were living under Democratic governments at the time.

 

[Annie]

There is certainly segregation in many Protestant churches in the south. That would make a ‘white Christianity’ and a ‘black Christianity’ and there certainly has been infiltration of white nationalist thought into the white Christianity.

The conclusion that because there is separation between the two that there is white supremacy in the one does not follow.

you can head over to Church Militant and see the ‘white Christianity’ in action where the hosts happily interview Gavin McGinnis and Faith Goldy.

As we were repeatedly told wrt BLM, the excesses of a few do not reflect upon the many.

 

[Annie]

some denominational splits were caused by churches wanting to support slavery in the first place.

Again, was that something people who are now attending those churches were involved with or continue to do now?

But you can see how the thought process propagates throughout the religion.

No, I do not think this is true at all any more than I think the thought processes of some Muslim terrorists propagate throughout Islam.

It’s not hard to find people that ‘aren’t Republican’ who do nothing but spew Fox News talking points.

The thing about religion is that it is a different thing thing from political beliefs. Does the agreement of Democratic Catholics with certain aspects of the DNC platform mean that Catholicism is being propagated by pro–legalized abortion thought?

Same with the Voris’s.

I see people advocating vegetarianism on CAF. Hitler was a vegetarian. Does that mean that Nazi ideas are being “spewed” on CAF?

 

[Vanny]

Thank you. You beat me to it, I was going to say that the abolitionist movement was made up of Christians, both in the US and in the UK. See William Wilberforce, for example.

 

[stpurl]

So then you are conceding that whether or not Hitler was white, male, Catholic/Christian, German/Austrian in nationality, a vegetarian, etc., that none of those or other attributes were actually involved in Nazism?

So no remarks on your part then of how Christianity was a part of Nazism or encouraged Nazism or inclined a person to Nazism etc. Good. Glad we have that settled.

 

[twf]

But at most it’s only every been certain strands of Christianity. There has always, going back to the earliest centuries, been indigenous Christians in Africa and the Middle East (duh) and India… they couldn’t have been white supremacists.

The Acts makes a point of relaying the miraculous evangelization of the Ethiopian eunuch.

 

[Pattylt]

There is certainly segregation in many Protestant churches in the south. That would make a ‘white Christianity’ and a ‘black Christianity’ and there certainly has been infiltration of white nationalist thought into the white Christianity. If you want, you can head over to Church Militant and see the ‘white Christianity’ in action where the hosts happily interview Gavin McGinnis and Faith Goldy.

I view the Catholic Church as the exception to the observation that the most segregated institutions in America today are her churches. Many evangelical and other sects are trying to remedy the segregation but it is still holding quite true. I’m not sure it has anything to do with white supremacism as much as that people seem to prefer worshipping with their own “kind”. Blacks may be every bit as uncomfortable joining a white church as whites are with black churches. What I’m unsure of is…why?

I remember reading an article addressing the issue of trying to overcome the segregation in churches and it pointed out that even churches where they were trying very hard to break down the barriers, still often had the senior pastor as white…blacks tended to be in lower roles. It’s often the case where whites expect the blacks to join their church but never consider joining the black churches as a solution.