Christians should apologize for helping to marginalize gays, pope says

[shockerfan]

He has never called them sinful either, to my knowledge, since becoming Pope. If you could point me to a quote where he did, I would appreciate it, and I would stand corrected. It does not exist, as far as I know. He has been careful to say that homosexual unions cannot be equated to marriages, but to my knowledge he has never once said that homosexual acts are sinful.

I don’t understand how the fact that one victim was Catholic has anything to do with Catholics needing to apologize for Orlando because of so-called prior mistreatment of homosexuals.

I suggest reading the Pope’s book “The Name of God is Mercy”, to gain some insight as to his approach. The Pope loves the story of Jesus and the adulteress…that story has several key points:

1. Jesus does not say that adultery is OK
2. Jesus does not change the truth
3. Jesus, however, does not beat the woman over the head with “the law”
4. Jesus shows her mercy and tells her to “sin no more”

In that book, and in many of the Pope’s comments, he frequently quotes the Catechism, and makes the assumption (perhaps wrongly) that people take his comments in context with the Catechism.

If you understand that, then you will see why I don’t think the Pope will ever come out in a “fire and brimstone” approach.

Bottom line: The Pope hasn’t changed any Church teachings…he’s reinforced them (providing you know the CCC)!

 

[2PT3]

I suggest reading the Pope’s book “The Name of God is Mercy”, to gain some insight as to his approach. The Pope loves the story of Jesus and the adulteress…that story has several key points:

1. Jesus does not say that adultery is OK
2. Jesus does not change the truth
3. Jesus, however, does not beat the woman over the head with “the law”
4. Jesus shows her mercy and tells her to “sin no more”

In that book, and in many of the Pope’s comments, he frequently quotes the Catechism, and makes the assumption (perhaps wrongly) that people take his comments in context with the Catechism.

If you understand that, then you will see why I don’t think the Pope will ever come out in a “fire and brimstone” approach.

Bottom line: The Pope hasn’t changed any Church teachings…he’s reinforced them (providing you know the CCC)!

I have read The Name of God is Mercy.

I am interested to know what you thought about the section where he cited with approval the fictional story of an officer condemned to death during WWII. The officer was given an opportunity for a final confession. He had lived a life of great sexual sin - use of prostitutes, adultery. When asked if he were sorry for these sins he said no he did not regret them and that he would do them all again given the chance. So the priest asked if he was at least sorry that he was not sorry and when he answered in the affirmative, the priest absolved him. I was scandalized by the citation of this story with approval because it is absolutely opposed to the teaching of the Church concerning the need for contrition on order to obtain absolution. This was a real eye-opener for me concerning Pope Francis - and not in a good way.

I think this story gets to the heart of why so many Catholics have a major problem with Pope Francis. He seems, deep down, to have major hang-ups about the Church and its teachings, and this seems to come out in his “off the cuff” statements. He has said many times that he wants a Church that includes everyone without making demands on anyone. That’s a nice sentiment but it is not what the Catholic Church has ever been or done. That Church would be a complete rupture from the one that existed before.

 

[JosieN]

Here is the truth: “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, they have committed an abomination.” Leviticus 20:13.

We must never be ashamed to proclaim this truth boldly and clearly. In this category we can also place adultery, fornication, incest, bestiality, and just about any other misuse of the sexual function for our own purposes. All sexual activity outside the bond of marriage is a grave offense against God.

Jesus Christ in his great mercy showed us that God no longer requires us to impose the death penalty for such crimes, but that does not make them any less of an abomination. Jesus will judge each man at the end of his life: those who fail to respond to his mercy before they die by repenting of such sins will be thrown into the “outer darkness” where there will be “wailing and grinding of teeth” and where “the worm never dies”.

This probably sounds offensive to many ears. But it is the truth and in my opinion (which is only that) this is a message the modern world needs to hear - especially in the west. They don’t need their ears tickled.

The truth is offensive only to those who are not willing to accept it. Compassion for the sinner without compassion for his soul seems to be more popular and easy for people to accept. Who wants to be told that all sexual activity outside the bond of marriage is a grave offense against God and you will be judged for it in the next life?

Jesus Christ the Son of God came to this world and died for us because of His great compassion for sinners. Sinners could now be forgiven and brought out of the darkness of their sins. Jesus did this out of love for us. Sin is real, and without repentance the soul is lost and most certainly will be in the “outer darkness” but by repentance and forgiveness your soul will be free from it’s sins and you will have new life within you.

I am not suggesting we judge anyone, but that we should preach the truth if we believe it, and stop apologizing for what we believe because we think it might offend someone.

 

[jediliz]

They need to apologize for hijacking the Saint Patrick’s Day parade and turning it into another gay pride parade (which is not needed!)

 

[MacBP]

The Church effectively says that the LGBT community should be treated with love and respect and then offends them by saying that such an important and intimate part of their personality is disordered. It’s offensive because homosexuality is a form of love and does not deserve condemnation. It deserves the same respect as heterosexual love.

The Church can’t simultaneously offend gay people and say that people should be treated with respect. I know it’s not offensive to gay Catholics, but it is to those outside the Church. It would be more honest if the Church says that gay people are morally evil and that their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is not as important as it is for heterosexuals. Given the fact that the Church opposes equal rights for LGBT people, that would be the more honest position.

Good point though. I’ve had to think long and hard about how to phrase things. English isn’t my native language.

Well first of all thank you! And I have to say that you write very well. I certainly wouldn’t have known English isn’t your first language if you hadn’t told me!

So I suppose I would respond with some comments and a question.

The Church effectively says that the LGBT community should be treated with love and respect and then offends them by saying that such an important and intimate part of their personality is disordered.

The Church can’t simultaneously offend gay people and say that people should be treated with respect.

If I’m understanding you correctly, you’re saying that for homosexuals, both one’s sexual orientation and the romantic relationships which flow from that orientation, constitute a large part of that person’s identity. Consequently, anything other than an outright affirmation is an attack on the person and thus contradict’s the Catholic Church’s assertion that homosexual people are to be treated with love, respect, and sensitivity.

I note that your profile you identifies you as a secular humanist. Consequently, I assume that means you think that Catholicism, along with any other religious system, is false. Perhaps you’re like many New Atheists and believe that religion is morally bad, or perhaps you may think it is intellectually bad (i.e., not true). However, religious belief is a huge part of the identity of billions of people. In fact, using the language of the Church I would argue that you see us as disordered since you believe the energy we put into our religion isn’t oriented towards an appropriate end. Do you think it’s possible to to a secular humanist while treating religious people with sensitivity, love, and respect? Is the only way to love your Christian neighbor to affirm that his belief system is correct?

I think this also brings up another issue. We disagree about the morality of homosexual sexual relationships. However there are likely some areas where we do agree. Statistically speaking, you are likely not in favor of polyamorous marriages. Is it possible for you to affirm that marriage is between two people while simultaneously loving and respecting those in polyamorous marriages or desiring to be in polyamorous marriages? To take a very extreme example, what about pedophilia? Can we love a pedophile without affirming his tendency towards pedophilia. One area where Christianity may differ from contemporary western culture is the idea that we need to love absolutely everyone. How do you propose we do this without affirming what absolutely everyone does?

It’s offensive because homosexuality is a form of love and does not deserve condemnation. It deserves the same respect as heterosexual love.

If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that because homosexual romantic relationships are a form of love, and since love is always and everywhere a good, love does not deserve condemnation.

I would begin by suggesting that the Catholic Church is perfectly content with two men, or two women, loving one another. In fact she promotes it: it’s called friendship. I think it’s important to be specific here. The isn’t so much against homosexual love as much as its against homosexual sexual/romantic relationships.

I think there are plenty of circumstances where we might condemn a sexual relationship. A husband may love his mistress, and vice versa, but I suspect you might have no problem condemning that husband’s affair.

The question then becomes whether a homosexual romantic relationship is one to be celebrated or one to be condemned. Catholic-Christians understand the world and scripture such that they cannot support a homosexual sexual relationship.

… to be continued!

 

[MacBP]

Continued from previous post…

It would be more honest if the Church says that gay people are morally evil

The Catholic Church would say that it is sinful to be in a sexual relationship with a member of the same sex. It would not say that individual is morally evil. Similarly, while it may say viewing pornography is sinful it does not say that people who watch porn are morally evil. The Church teaches that aside from the Virgin Mary and Jesus, all human beings are sinners. It also teaches that we are all children of God. Our value and worth as human beings is not a function of what we do, or what we believe, but who we are.

that their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is not as important as it is for heterosexuals

We the Church believes that everyone has the right to life, from conception until natural death. In some cases an individual may be justified in taking a life for self-defense. In some cases the state may be justified in taking life through war (in limited circumstances) and through capital punishment. These circumstances are purposefully very limited.

The Church supports the same idea of liberty for homosexual people as it does heterosexual people: the idea that people should be free to be good. In the Western World I am unaware of any contemporary, mainstream Catholic leaders who believe that individuals should be compelled to become Catholic or follow Catholicism. So in the US the Church would say the homosexuals are free to engage in same-sex romantic relationships, but those relationships are at odds with their understanding of Scripture, nature, the human person, and God. I find it hard to believe that this is an attack on liberty.

As for happiness, I would say that the Church wants exactly the opposite. The Church opposes same-sex romantic relationships because they believe that such a relationship leads people further away from God. And in God we find our greatest happiness. Consequently, the Church would suggest that although a same-sex romantic relationship lead to some good, it comes at the expense of a greater good.

Given the fact that the Church opposes equal rights for LGBT people, that would be the more honest position.

Well I think it’s important to be specific here. The Church isn’t opposed to equal rights for LGBT people. In fact, the Church feels that homosexual person’s should be treated no different than heterosexual person’s. It simply applies the sexual ethics of heterosexual relationships to everyone else. Catholic-Christians oppose homosexual romantic relationships for the exact same reason that it opposes birth control in a heterosexual marriage: we believe that sexual activity should be open to the generation of new life.

 

[utah_rose]

When I discriminate against gays, the poor, or the marginalized, then I will apologize.

Same here. In fact I don’t know anyone that has done this, and it makes me angry that Pope Francis feels that the whole church discriminates against them. A better remark would have been condemnation of countries that engage in killing gays just because they are gay, but doubt that will ever happen.

 

[meltzerboy]

This is an uncharitable thread: uncharitable toward the Pope, uncharitable toward gay people, uncharitable toward, for most of you, your own religion, Catholicism.

You are taking the Pope’s words too personally: he is not saying every Catholic or Christian is to blame and should apologize, nor is he saying the Church is directly responsible for the murder that took place in Orlando. He is speaking about the obligation we all have (not only Catholics) toward the care and welfare of our fellow human beings, whoever they may be. In other words, acts of love rather than recriminations are what is needed in the world.

 

[pianistclare]

This is an uncharitable thread: uncharitable toward the Pope, uncharitable toward gay people, uncharitable toward, for most of you, your own religion, Catholicism.

You are taking the Pope’s words too personally: he is not saying every Catholic or Christian is to blame and should apologize, nor is he saying the Church is directly responsible for the murder that took place in Orlando. He is speaking about the obligation we all have (not only Catholics) toward the care and welfare of our fellow human beings, whoever they may be. In other words, acts of love rather than recriminations are what is needed in the world.

:clapping:

 

[JosieN]

This is an uncharitable thread: uncharitable toward the Pope, uncharitable toward gay people, uncharitable toward, for most of you, your own religion, Catholicism.

You are taking the Pope’s words too personally: he is not saying every Catholic or Christian is to blame and should apologize, nor is he saying the Church is directly responsible for the murder that took place in Orlando.** He is speaking about the obligation we all have (not only Catholics) toward the care and welfare of our fellow human beings, whoever they may be. In other words, acts of love rather than recriminations are what is needed in the world.**

That is a lovely message. I am glad you were able to interpret it in this beautiful compassionate way. I have a question? If he is not saying every Christian and Catholic is to blame and should apologize, which Christians is he referring to when he says they should apologize and why should they apologize? This is where the confusion is.

 

[pianistclare]

That is a lovely message. I am glad you were able to interpret it in this beautiful compassionate way. I have a question? If he is not saying every Christian and Catholic is to blame and should apologize, which Christians is he referring to when he says they should apologize and why should they apologize? This is where the confusion is.

Honestly, I don’t find it confusing.
If one reflects and finds themselves guilty, they should go to their brother and apologize.
It’s Scriptural.
If one has not been judgmental against anyone… Then what are people worked up about?
To hear the CAF posters…no one of us have EVER EVER EVER sinned!!!
I frankly, find that hard to believe. When we have a wonderful and pastoral Pope whose selection was inspired by the Holy Spirit (yeah, remember that teaching folks?) we ought to listen and reflect before we starting slinging mud and putting words into his mouth.
Meltzerboy is correct. What will it harm the average Catholic if they have compassion for fellow sinners? How will it water down Catholic teaching? It will not.

Those who cry obedience are often the most vocal about not wanting to be led.
It’s ironic. And sad.
I’m out. I can’t take anymore of the Francis bashing.
God bless you.

 

[2PT3]

This is an uncharitable thread: uncharitable toward the Pope, uncharitable toward gay people, uncharitable toward, for most of you, your own religion, Catholicism.

You are taking the Pope’s words too personally: he is not saying every Catholic or Christian is to blame and should apologize, nor is he saying the Church is directly responsible for the murder that took place in Orlando. He is speaking about the obligation we all have (not only Catholics) toward the care and welfare of our fellow human beings, whoever they may be. In other words, acts of love rather than recriminations are what is needed in the world.

Have you read the Pope’s comments?

 

[gilliam]

Have you read the Pope’s comments?

I have and I have to agree with them.

They are on the thread for everyone here to read.

 

[meltzerboy]

Have you read the Pope’s comments?

Yes, I have and I stand by my interpretation.

 

[LittleFlower378]

This is an uncharitable thread: uncharitable toward the Pope, uncharitable toward gay people, uncharitable toward, for most of you, your own religion, Catholicism.

You are taking the Pope’s words too personally: he is not saying every Catholic or Christian is to blame and should apologize, nor is he saying the Church is directly responsible for the murder that took place in Orlando. He is speaking about the obligation we all have (not only Catholics) toward the care and welfare of our fellow human beings, whoever they may be. In other words, acts of love rather than recriminations are what is needed in the world.

Who is being uncharitable? I see people that really care about this issue and bring up real concerns.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’m still waiting for my apology.
My apology for the liturgy I attend.
My apology for the confusion in the church
My apology for the “pastoral” counsel I’ve recieved in the past to use birth control.
My apology for the weak religious education that I’ve had to correct and contradict to my children.
My apology for I could go on…

I know that the confusion is not this pope’s fault, or that the things I complained about are a single priests fault or any pope at all. I’m just confused. As I have been lately.

Hos comments were not really groundbreaking as Cardinal Marx made them two days before almost verbatim. Which to me says that these (as with other comments) are not off the cuff comments but rather something the pope wishes to speak about.

Here is what I’ve found odd. The Pope told others to apologize. But he did not apologize. Personally I don’t know what he would apologize for. And I’m currious as to this given his position as Cardinal against same sex marriage in Argentina. Not only that but he implied same sex adoption as child abuse. I assume those positions are correct and nothing that needs to be apologized for.

So my questions are, who should apologize, and specifically for what?

 

[JosieN]

Honestly, I don’t find it confusing.
**If one reflects and finds themselves guilty, they should go to their brother and apologize.
It’s Scriptural.
If one has not been judgmental against anyone… Then what are people worked up about? **
To hear the CAF posters…no one of us have EVER EVER EVER sinned!!!
I frankly, find that hard to believe. When we have a wonderful and pastoral Pope whose selection was inspired by the Holy Spirit (yeah, remember that teaching folks?) we ought to listen and reflect before we starting slinging mud and putting words into his mouth.
Meltzerboy is correct. What will it harm the average Catholic if they have compassion for fellow sinners? How will it water down Catholic teaching? It will not.

Those who cry obedience are often the most vocal about not wanting to be led.
It’s ironic. And sad.
I’m out. I can’t take anymore of the Francis bashing.
God bless you.

Asking for the meaning of the Pope’s message is not pope bashing. He is the leader of the flock, we should be interested in what he says. If what you are saying is correct, then we need to apologize for being judgmental to sinners, because we are all sinners. How can the Gospel be preached or sinners set free without judging peoples actions? Jesus Christ was the only person without sin.

 

[pianistclare]

Asking for the meaning of the Pope’s message is not pope bashing. He is the leader of the flock, we should be interested in what he says. If what you are saying is correct, then we need to apologize for being judgmental to sinners, because we are all sinners.

Well, I’m glad someone finally got it.
That’s all he is saying.

Most of the “confusion” is a result of uncharitable posting. There’s plenty of it on this thread. If one can’t see it, then…I don’t know what else to say.

If people “cared” they would stand behind the Vicar of Christ.
Pretty simple.

 

[pianistclare]

I’m still waiting for my apology.
My apology for the liturgy I attend.
My apology for the confusion in the church
My apology for the “pastoral” counsel I’ve recieved in the past to use birth control.
My apology for the weak religious education that I’ve had to correct and contradict to my children.
My apology for I could go on…

I know that the confusion is not this pope’s fault, or that the things I complained about are a single priests fault or any pope at all. I’m just confused. As I have been lately.

Hos comments were not really groundbreaking as Cardinal Marx made them two days before almost verbatim. Which to me says that these (as with other comments) are not off the cuff comments but rather something the pope wishes to speak about.

Here is what I’ve found odd. The Pope told others to apologize. But he did not apologize. Personally I don’t know what he would apologize for. And I’m currious as to this given his position as Cardinal against same sex marriage in Argentina. Not only that but he implied same sex adoption as child abuse. I assume those positions are correct and nothing that needs to be apologized for.

So my questions are, who should apologize, and specifically for what?

Again, if people believe that they have not erred EVER, then what’s to get worked up about? Pat yourself on the back.

 

[shockerfan]

I have read The Name of God is Mercy.

I am interested to know what you thought about the section where he cited with approval the fictional story of an officer condemned to death during WWII. The officer was given an opportunity for a final confession. He had lived a life of great sexual sin - use of prostitutes, adultery. When asked if he were sorry for these sins he said no he did not regret them and that he would do them all again given the chance. So the priest asked if he was at least sorry that he was not sorry and when he answered in the affirmative, the priest absolved him. I was scandalized by the citation of this story with approval because it is absolutely opposed to the teaching of the Church concerning the need for contrition on order to obtain absolution. This was a real eye-opener for me concerning Pope Francis - and not in a good way.

I read that story in context of the whole book, I didn’t read it as if it stood on its own. If you read on, you would find on page 50* “The Church condemns sin because it has to relay the truth: ‘This is a sin.’ But at the same time, it embraces the sinner who recognizes himself as such, it welcomes him, it speaks to him of the infinite mercy of God”
*

I think this story gets to the heart of why so many Catholics have a major problem with Pope Francis. He seems, deep down, to have major hang-ups about the Church and its teachings, and this seems to come out in his “off the cuff” statements. He has said many times that he wants a Church that includes everyone without making demands on anyone. That’s a nice sentiment but it is not what the Catholic Church has ever been or done. That Church would be a complete rupture from the one that existed before.

The bottom line is this: The Catechism has remained the same throughout the Pope Francis’ pontificate…it has not changed…Francis references the Catechism often.

The truth has not changed. You may not like his methods, but he has changed no truth.

I certainly would wish he would be more direct, but I can’t dismiss the number of people his methods have reached that felt marginalized before. I hope you will pray about this.