meltzerboy
New member
I inadvertently deleted your message, but couldn’t answer it anyway. Please PM me again if you have other questions; maybe I’ll be able to answer them.
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thomasf
Guest
To begin with, I didn’t say that we should go to Israel and preach to them and try to convert all the Jews. What I did write was, we should hope for their conversion to Christianity, as Jesus told us He was the way to salvation. I also wrote that I believe that the jews will have some sort of role in salvation somehow. And nowhere did I write that Jews were going to Hell.
Fact is this: the jewish faith denies Christ was the messiah and savior. Christians believe that you must accept Jesus and become part of the body of Christ for salvation. Those two statements are incompatible. IMO the two cannot be true at the same time.
When Jesus sent the Apostles off to preach the gospel and convert all nations. Where did they start this? Israel. Who did they convert to start with at the Pentecost? Jews. Jesus did not send the Apostles to convert everyone but the Jews because the Jews have some special dispensation from believing in Him. His ministry was to the Jews while He was alive. He came to save the Jewish people, as messiah that was His mission. The Jewish people do not have some sort of exclusion from needing Him.
If we truly respected and loved the jewish people, and desired the best for them, wouldn’t we pray for them to accept Christ and for their conversion? As the church does on Good Friday? If we truly love them, and truly believe Christ IS the way, shouldn’t that be in their best interests?
IMO, the way Jesus left it when He left earth was to preach the gospel and convert all nations. He hasn’t said otherwise yet. Until He does, that should be our mission. To everyone.
I’m not here to encourage folks to go out and convert Jews and persecute them and force them into Christianity. The purpose of the post was to talk about this tendency I see for people to elevate the jewish customs, laws and practices as being a necessary part of Christianity. There’s nothing wrong with knowing jewish history or learning that theology. In fact, knowing the old testament and jewish theology helps one to know christanity and understand what Christ did for us. But Jesus fulfilled the old covenant and the old laws. We are new people in Christ, the old laws and the old covenant has passed away and imo we should be more concerned with living the faith Jesus left us than the one that he fulfilled.
Me, I like what Roy Schoeman has to say about all this. He’s a jew that converted to catholicism and believes that the conversion of the jews is necessary and should be encouraged.
salvationisfromthejews.com/conversion.html
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thomasf
Guest
And btw, none of that excludes the ability of Catholics to talk to Jewish folks and have ecumenical conversations, etc. One can have deep respect of people of other faiths, understand what they believe, love them, work with them for common goals, etc etc etc. But just because they might be great people and you respect them, doesn’t mean you don’t pray for them or hope that they might gain salvation, etc. I have very good friends that are muslims that I love and respect. I have many, many good friends that are LDS that I love and respect. (I loves me some mormons! ) But that doesn’t mean I don’t pray for them for their conversion and acceptance of Christ.
What Pope JPII wanted was for Catholics, and Christians, to work together and understand each other and to be closer. And that should be, but it hasn’t always been. JPII had a great respect and love for the Jewish people, especially growing up in WWII poland. But never have I heard him write or say we shouldn’t pray for their conversion or for them to accept Christ.
What Pope JPII wanted was for Catholics, and Christians, to work together and understand each other and to be closer. And that should be, but it hasn’t always been. JPII had a great respect and love for the Jewish people, especially growing up in WWII poland. But never have I heard him write or say we shouldn’t pray for their conversion or for them to accept Christ.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
No-one ever said this, I believe your hearing what you want to hear. I’m saying its “how” you go about something, not the fact that you go about doing something.
Ultimately, true ecumenism does not compromise our faith; it means joining hands with other Christians and people of goodwill to bring our nihilistic, hedonistic, anti-life, anti-family culture back to God, while at the same time acknowledging our obvious differences. Far from being a bad word, ecumenism is — in the words of John Paul II — “a response to the exhortation in the First Letter of Peter to ‘give an explanation of the reason for our hope’” (1 Peter 3:15).
God Bless, Gary
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thomasf
Guest
No one ever said that it does/is. I think you are reading into what I wrote, from the beginning, and seeing what you want.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
My brother please go back and re-read this thread. In fact you will notice I am agreement with you here, There came a point in my dialogue where I typed “MOVING ON”, At that point I was done commenting on your post and my referrence became loose Protestant sects which I believe are self serving agendas in regards to Judaism.
Not on, or to Catholics in specific but only a reminder of what is proposed through ecumenism and since Pope JP-II and slightly beforehand.
If there is a misunderstanding here in the typed word I am sorry. Shall we move on?
God Bless, Gary
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chosen_people
Guest
I would like to express my heartfelt appreciation that you do not feel that it is necessary to physically exterminate me or to destroy my place of worship, despite my crime of being Jewish, but will limit yourself to verbal persuasion to “charitably” have me break the eternal covenant , thereby cutting me off for eternity from both God and the Jewish people.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
lol…Did you read the statement by Pope Benedict issued in March on the release of his book Jesus of Narareth? Facinating in regards to Judaism.I would like to express my heartfelt appreciation that you do not feel that it is necessary to physically exterminate me or to destroy my place of worship, despite my crime of being Jewish, but will limit yourself to verbal persuasion to “charitably” have me break the eternal covenant , thereby cutting me off for eternity from both God and the Jewish people.
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thomasf
Guest
I had an insight today and figured something out that I have been missing about this subject.
I was listening to the CA show with Carl Olson where he was talking about the rapture and protestant beliefs about the rapture. Olson was discussing John D’Arby and his dualistic beliefs about the people of heaven and the people of earth. Christians being the people of heaven, jews being the people of earth. Olson said it was D’Arby’s belief that Jesus came originally to the jews and was supposed to complete and fulfill the promises of judaism, set up a Davidic Kingdom on earth, and reign with the Jews on earth. But because the Jews rejected Christ when He came for them, God had to come up with a plan B. And the plan B was preaching to the gentiles and saving the gentiles, creating the Christian faith. It was D’Arby’s belief, because he did not value the institution of the church, that the Christians were the people of Heaven, and that the Christians had to be taken up to Heaven when Christ returned, so that Christ could set up this Davidic Kingdom on earth and finish what He originally started with the Jews. Thus the theology of the rapture, and the idea that the Christians would be taken up and away before Jesus set up His kingdom on earth with the Jews.
And because this Jewish Kingdom is still to come, D’Arby (and those that fell into his theology) believed that the Jews were still a separate people and have their own plan with God. Thus, no need to convert, or for them to accept Christ since He was still coming to be their messiah later on.
When I heard this it all makes sense as to why some protestants view jews as I described. Their time is still to come and Jesus is still coming to set up their Davidic Kingdom.
Of course I don’t think the church sees it that way. IMO I’ve always been taught Christ has fulfilled the Judaic law, ended that covenant, and that Christianity is the next level. The messiah has already come and done His work, and you gotta get on board with Christianity to be part of that.
I was listening to the CA show with Carl Olson where he was talking about the rapture and protestant beliefs about the rapture. Olson was discussing John D’Arby and his dualistic beliefs about the people of heaven and the people of earth. Christians being the people of heaven, jews being the people of earth. Olson said it was D’Arby’s belief that Jesus came originally to the jews and was supposed to complete and fulfill the promises of judaism, set up a Davidic Kingdom on earth, and reign with the Jews on earth. But because the Jews rejected Christ when He came for them, God had to come up with a plan B. And the plan B was preaching to the gentiles and saving the gentiles, creating the Christian faith. It was D’Arby’s belief, because he did not value the institution of the church, that the Christians were the people of Heaven, and that the Christians had to be taken up to Heaven when Christ returned, so that Christ could set up this Davidic Kingdom on earth and finish what He originally started with the Jews. Thus the theology of the rapture, and the idea that the Christians would be taken up and away before Jesus set up His kingdom on earth with the Jews.
And because this Jewish Kingdom is still to come, D’Arby (and those that fell into his theology) believed that the Jews were still a separate people and have their own plan with God. Thus, no need to convert, or for them to accept Christ since He was still coming to be their messiah later on.
When I heard this it all makes sense as to why some protestants view jews as I described. Their time is still to come and Jesus is still coming to set up their Davidic Kingdom.
Of course I don’t think the church sees it that way. IMO I’ve always been taught Christ has fulfilled the Judaic law, ended that covenant, and that Christianity is the next level. The messiah has already come and done His work, and you gotta get on board with Christianity to be part of that.
meltzerboy
New member
An ingenious theory, indeed. Is there any scriptural basis for it in the Hebrew Bible or New Testament? I doubt, however, Jews as a whole would accept Jesus even the second time, if He claimed to be G-d, since one of the reasons for the rejection was that the Messiah, according to Jewish prophecy, was supposed to be a messenger from G-d who would bring world peace, rather than G-d Himself (or the son of G-d). Just as for (most) Christians, the Trinity is a given, for Jews the idea of G-d as a non-corporeal Unity is fundamental. But, on an intellectual level, I find the theory fascinating. Thanks for sharing it.
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Lev23
Guest
Seems like this thread is all over the place. You open up about protestants being into Judaism and now want to talk about Darby and the rapture.
I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church and also that Jews now need to believe and have faith in the sacrificial death and resurrection of Jesus Christ now. There is no assurance that Christian’s can give to any particular non-christian Jew that they will survive up to the point were Israel as a nation will accept Jesus as their Messiah.
The Jews rejection of Jesus as messiah was prophesied in their own scriptures, so there is no “plan B”.
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Lev23
Guest
When Israel accepts Jesus at His second coming of Israel-
**Psalm118:26
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD.
From the house of the LORD we bless you.
Matthew 23:39
"For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
Zechariah 12:10
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.**
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swariffin
Guest
Ups, what an interesting point. Is it really that Judaism also believe in Purgatory? That must come from the Old Testament. Could you share your point to me?
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GaryTaylor
Guest
I tell you what this was a landmark statement by Pope Benedict XVI and long overdue. I find this man facinating and I can’t think of 5-people on earth today who can sit with him and discuss Theology. There is but a few on this mans level today. Matter of fact you count them on one-hand. The Catholic Church ought to Pray he lives to be a 100 with a clear state of mind.
It would also be worth noting he has in been charge of Catholic Doctrine since the early 80’s till he was elected Pope. For that entire time he and the Blessed Pope John Paul II met each and every Friday possible for lunch, and invited world known theologians to discuss and debate with them. This went on for “decades”. There simply is but very few of this mans knowledge in theology alive today. Another would be Pelikan who last taught at Yale in the 90;s I;m not sure if he passed on yet. But his last works were Jesus through the Centurys and Mary through the Centurys, both I highly recommend to read. Also a facinating read is Benedicts Jesus of Narareth pt I + II. Part II was just relased last month and is on the Bestsellers List as I type, #5 at my last look. here you’ll gain insight into this mans knowledge and just how deep of a thinker he is.
freedomist.com/2011/03/pope-jews-not-responsible-for-crucifixion-pope-apologizes-to-jew/
God Bless, Gary
It would also be worth noting he has in been charge of Catholic Doctrine since the early 80’s till he was elected Pope. For that entire time he and the Blessed Pope John Paul II met each and every Friday possible for lunch, and invited world known theologians to discuss and debate with them. This went on for “decades”. There simply is but very few of this mans knowledge in theology alive today. Another would be Pelikan who last taught at Yale in the 90;s I;m not sure if he passed on yet. But his last works were Jesus through the Centurys and Mary through the Centurys, both I highly recommend to read. Also a facinating read is Benedicts Jesus of Narareth pt I + II. Part II was just relased last month and is on the Bestsellers List as I type, #5 at my last look. here you’ll gain insight into this mans knowledge and just how deep of a thinker he is.
freedomist.com/2011/03/pope-jews-not-responsible-for-crucifixion-pope-apologizes-to-jew/
God Bless, Gary
meltzerboy
New member
At the very early stages of Judaism, the notion of an afterlife was not discussed too much and there was little evidence of it in Judaic writing. Later on (still in ancient times), there was more interest and evidence of it was found in verses of the Hebrew Bible, including the idea of Purgatory for the atonement of sins. Some Jews think we all go there (Jews and Gentiles alike) first, no matter how good and moral we are in this life. In other words, no one goes directly to Heaven.
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swariffin
Guest
It is amazing, my brother, that a Jew like you (even not all of you) believe in Purgatory too. I cannot find any help beyond the Old Testament to search the basis for the Jews to believe so. I don’t know whether you can link me to any other sources, like your Talmud, for instance. Thank you very much. Geez, the more I know a Jew, even in writing, the more I realize how little I know about them.
meltzerboy
New member
Thanks for the scriptural verses. I’m familiar with the one from Zechariah.
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thomasf
Guest
I’m not in favor of it, I’m just telling you what D’Arby and his followers believed.
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thomasf
Guest
I’m not sure anyone here is suggesting the Jews are ‘Christ Killers’.
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MontChevalier
Guest
I think the proper term here is racist fanatics from The Modern Age. I’ll fix this so we’re all clear on this. The real murders were committed by Nazis, not Crusaders.
The Crusaders, as you called them, only fought those who fought them. They were pilgrims, but more than that, armed pilgrims. If you’ve studied the history, you’ll find that at every battle it was the Muslims on the offensive, until a siege was required, which forced the opponent to the defensive. The so-called “atrocities” of those days weren’t aimed through antisemitism, but for other reasons altogether. The “massacres” of Jews were done out of necessity for money, since there were specific groups of Crusaders who could barely pay for a single loaf of bread. It was lamentable, but the Jews of the time had it far worst in Islamic Lands. Anyone ever hear of the events during the 11th century where all Christians AND Jews were forced to wear heavy wooden necklaces in the shapes of their own faith’s symbols?
I’m surprised to see a so-called “fellow” Catholic make a nerving comment as that to discredit our ancestors of the past. It is a common mistake for people to believe that the Crusades disrupted Christian relations with the Jews forever. Wrong. These relations had long been disrupted since the time of Jesus.
If anything, it was in Christian lands that Jews lived in much greater safety. Look up the Kingdom of Poland, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the first Polish Republic. The Jews used to call Poland “The Jewish Paradise”.
Now to contribute to this thread, I would have to add that my own interests in the Judeo faith is purely for research; specifically in the dark ages, middles ages and renaissance period. I wouldn’t mind understanding the Jews, but, as a writer, I need to first focus on the information I’m looking for.
-MontChevalier
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