Church Mariology making me nuts!

[Mintaka]

There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with using your imagination to try to understand what various Bible folks were thinking and feeling. In fact, that’s one of the major ways to understand and follow Ignatian spirituality (ie, St. Ignatius of Loyola).

Of course, it works better if you pair imagination with study and orthodox faith. Imagination alone can tend to run off in a crazy way, just like study alone can be narrowing.

 

[iloveangels]

There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with using your imagination to try to understand what various Bible folks were thinking and feeling. In fact, that’s one of the major ways to understand and follow Ignatian spirituality (ie, St. Ignatius of Loyola).

Of course, it works better if you pair imagination with study and orthodox faith. Imagination alone can tend to run off in a crazy way, just like study alone can be narrowing.

Correct. For your own uses. You can’t teach your own interpretations as doctrine though, because they’re not. They’re only your own musings, done for your own benefit. And they’re always subject to correction by the Church.

 

[R_C]

Correct. For your own uses. You can’t teach your own interpretations as doctrine though, because they’re not. They’re only your own musings, done for your own benefit. And they’re always subject to correction by the Church.

Sure. And there’s more than enough in our Sacred Tradition to need to go any further into our own musings.

 

[inkaneer]

Sure. And there’s more than enough in our Sacred Tradition to need to go any further into our own musings.

The last words that Mary spoke that are recorded in scripture were the words she spoke at Cana when she said, “Do whatever He tells you.” If you want to know what Mary thought then I submit that those words are it.

 

[PJM]

=inkaneer;10114024]Wrong, Okay, just totally wrong. Jesus is a person; the Father is a person; the Holy spirit is a person. No modes. Three persons in one God is the Trinity. There are no modes. In Unitarianism there are no persons, just one God who can take on different modes. They are not interchangeable.

FULLY AGREE W/U

I was responding to a post in language I thought they would BEST comprehend. Not developing a new and personal theology

Not quite sure about whay your ending message means.

One God means: what One thinks they all think
What One desires they all desire
What One commands they all Command
What One expereices thay all experiece
One God; One Divine Nature that each possess in its entireity]; Co-equal and Co-Eterna

Jesus alone has two perfect natures: Divine and human.

Sorry if I mislead you friend,

God Bless,
pat /PJMl

 

[joe370]

johnbres2;10039375]Our Church’s adoration/worship/whatever-you-want-to-call-it of the Mother of Jesus is really causing me a big stumbling block in my effort to be “fully Catholic.”

Hey John, if you can show me, anywhere, where the catholic church officially, or unofficially (past or present) teaches that we must worship Mary, then I will be forced to leave the catholic church right now?

Let me say, that I consider Mary Blessed, as she said all generations would. However, I cannot get past the fact that a great deal of the Mariology of the Church is unbiblical. Most especially, Jesus’ own comments, on multiple occasions, seem to refute the elevation of Mary that has occurred. His statement that “rather, blessed are those who do the will of my Father in Heaven,” in reply to the woman who said, “blessed is the womb that bore you,” in particular appears to preclude the Mariology that has become so widespread.

Being called blessed has nothing to do with Marian doctrine.

I just came to this site tonight to try to get some guidance and clarity on the issue. I notice one thread where one Catholic is suggesting that Mary, via her DNA, really is part of the Eucharist too. This in some ways seems the logical conclusion of Catholic Mariology–she is getting so large that it seems she will eclipse Christ at some point.

Thank God you do not believe such silliness.

If anyone has a good recommendation where I can read something that really addresses this question at a deep level, I would like to hear it. I have read a ton of apologetics already, and I am not buying the normal stuff that says things like “co-redeemer really means that she is redeeming with Jesus, because her fiat allowed HIm to come into the world.” I don’t want to hear the bases for Catholic veneration of Mary–I already know that. Rather, I am interested in hearing about how anyone else might similarly be stuggling with this issue, or how they overcame it. Peacve.

The bible tells us that we are all God’s co-workers in the redemptive process:

“As God’s co-workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain.”

Perhaps this might prove helpful:

philvaz.com/apologetics/num48.htm

As far as the other stuff, e.g. Mary worship, or Mary being part of the Eucharist, don’t struggle with it because none of it is true my friend.

 

[joe370]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. But I am not questioning that Mary deserves honor and to be called Blessed by all generations. Rather, I am questioning the degree to which she has been elevated, in official Catholic dontrine. Saything things like “through Mary, to Jesus,” and that she is the mediatrix of all grace, and things like that. These statements imply clearly that she is integrally woven into who Jesus is–almost as if we cannot come to God without Jesus, and we cannot come to Jesus without Mary. Now, of course I get that literally we would not have had Jesus if Mary had not borne him–but the idea that spiritually we must go through her to get to Him is just too much for me. It is not being offered to Catholics as a possible way of looking at things–it seems rather to be the official doctrine. Too much!

Mary is the mediatrix of all Grace (all grace comes from Jesus) through her prayers alone, to her Son: “And Mary said, My soul magnifies and extols the Lord.”

The church does not teach that we cannot go to Jesus without Mary. If you feel more comfortable, focus on Jesus alone.

Why do we have to go through earthly ministers, as per the bible:

All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

The CC absolutely affirms that Jesus is the one mediator, but does that exclude secondary mediators…all other mediators? Paul, in other verses, commands us to pray for others, just as Mary prays for us; what is it to pray for someone but to act as their mediator. Intercessory prayer, as per the NT, is important, in terms of the salvation of souls. Surely this does not contradict the fact that there is one mediator between God and man - Jesus Christ. We can do all this praying and mediating only because Jesus the Christ is the one Mediator.

This is the way the CC views Mary’s role as mediator. She is a mediator like you and me, but because of the special role given to her by God in His plan of salvation, her mediation far exceeds our own, as do all of the saints in heaven; everyone in heaven is perfectly conformed to God’s will; God is more likely to respond to their prayers versus my prayers, wouldn’t you agree? James 5:16 says “The prayers of a just man availeth much.” What creature was more just, than Mary, that is if you believe that she was immaculately conceived? if you do, then logically, Mary’s prayers are much more efficacious than ours and for this reason we ask her to pray to Jesus.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

FULLY AGREE W/U

I was responding to a post in language I thought they would BEST comprehend. Not developing a new and personal theology

Not quite sure about whay your ending message means.

One God means: what One thinks they all think
What One desires they all desire
What One commands they all Command
What One expereices thay all experiece
One God; One Divine Nature that each possess in its entireity]; Co-equal and Co-Eterna

Jesus alone has two perfect natures: Divine and human.

Sorry if I mislead you friend,

God Bless,
pat /PJMl

Your assertions, especially the part I’ve put in bold, sound Patripassian. That is, they resemble the erroneous position often equated with Modalism that says the Father suffered on the cross. If the Son experienced suffering and death on the cross, and if what is experienced by one Person of the Trinity is experienced by all of them, then the Father and the Holy Spirit also experienced suffering and death on the cross.

I’m sure you are not deliberately endorsing old theological errors, but we have to be very careful about how we speak of this mystery. It is terribly easy to make serious mistakes on the subject.

I know this is somewhat off topic though, just don’t want anyone to get confused.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Hey John, if you can show me, anywhere, where the catholic church officially, or unofficially (past or present) teaches that we must worship Mary, then I will be forced to leave the catholic church right now?

Just to clarify, the word “worship” technically just means to acknowledge the worth of something or someone, to give them that honor which they are owed. That is why Commonwealth magistrates are still, I think, called “Your Worship.” It is also why in some Catholic books and documents, especially written in the 19th century and before, one often comes across statements on the worship we give to Mary.

In more recent years, especially in the United States, there has been a shift in the meaning of the English word, more and more towards Adoration, the form of worship which God alone is owed. Simultaneously the word “adore” has been downgraded in common speech, sometimes even to a sort of puppy-love, especially for children. This has been an unfortunate turn of affairs and can cause a lot of confusion when discussing this subject. It makes one appreciate why people used Latin rather than constantly changing vernacular languages for theology and liturgy for so long, to avoid these sorts of confusing situations arising as the meanings of words shift.

Using old-fashioned definitions of the words we certainly do worship Mary, but of course we never adore her. Using more modern colloquial meanings we would be more ready to say we adore her, but would strongly deny that we worship her. It’s important not to get too caught up in the English words themselves, but instead to focus on the theological reality those words are trying to express.

 

[PJM]

=inkaneer;10120433]the last words that mary spoke that are recorded in scripture were the words she spoke at cana when she said, “do whatever he tells you.” if you want to know what mary thought then i submit that those words are it.

very good!

 

[PJM]

=Aelred Minor;10124631]Your assertions, especially the part I’ve put in bold, sound Patripassian. That is, they resemble the erroneous position often equated with Modalism that says the Father suffered on the cross. If the Son experienced suffering and death on the cross, and if what is experienced by one Person of the Trinity is experienced by all of them, then the Father and the Holy Spirit also experienced suffering and death on the cross.

I’m sure you are not deliberately endorsing old theological errors, but we have to be very careful about how we speak of this mystery. It is terribly easy to make serious mistakes on the subject.

I know this is somewhat off topic though, just don’t want anyone to get confused.

WOW!

All of a sudden I seem to be unable to articulate:blush:

God is “Spirit and Truth” [John 4:23-24] and cannot die. Jesus as God did NOT die on the
Cross; but Jesus the “man-God” did. What Jesus suffered would have caused similar pain and suffering [IMO] for the Trinity as it Did for the “man-Christ”. Not in the identical manner perhaps; but in and because of their degree of unity.

THANKS for the correction,

Pat/PJM

 

[Aelred_Minor]

WOW!

All of a sudden I seem to be unable to articulate:blush:

God is “Spirit and Truth” [John 4:23-24] and cannot die. Jesus as God did NOT die on the
Cross; but Jesus the “man-God” did. What Jesus suffered would have caused similar pain and suffering [IMO] for the Trinity as it Did for the “man-Christ”. Not in the identical manner perhaps; but in and because of their degree of unity.

THANKS for the correction,

Pat/PJM

I think you are still having problems articulating your point, starting to sound a bit Nestorian this time.

Jesus is God. Jesus died on the cross. Therefore God died on the cross. Certainly in his divine nature Jesus is impassible and thus immortal (also not subject in his divine nature to pain or suffering, by the way, like the Father and the Holy Spirit). It was rather in his human nature that “he suffered death and was buried.” Still, it is a person not a nature that dies, and so God the Son truly did die on the cross.

 

[brb3]

I think you are still having problems articulating your point, starting to sound a bit Nestorian this time.

Jesus is God. Jesus died on the cross. Therefore God died on the cross. Certainly in his divine nature Jesus is impassible and thus immortal (also not subject in his divine nature to pain or suffering, by the way, like the Father and the Holy Spirit). It was rather in his human nature that “he suffered death and was buried.” Still, it is a person not a nature that dies, and so God the Son truly did die on the cross.

Glad you gave the necessary correction.

 

[HillWilliam]

“God died on the cross?”
Now who’s spitting Partipassianism?
(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_heresies)

Hey! we can all play this game!
It’s like Pin The Tail On The Donkey!

(and who the Little Jimmy Dickens was Partipassi, or was Passi a Parti-guy?)

There’s only one problem with theology: it’s an -ology.
Ya wanna come off like the Wizards of Didd?
“We are men of groans and howls,/Mystic men who eat boiled owls.”
keep on cracking them theology bones.

It may be instructive but how does it get us to Emmaus?

 

[HillWilliam]

Please allow me to correct my typos and misreads

Patri (Father) passio- (to suffer), patripassianism…saying the Father suffers through Jesus.
That’s a declared heresy. Sizzle, sizzle me.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patripassianism

(Well, while we’re at it, who is Jehovah of the “Old” Testament – that Guy gets lit up!)

anyway…I probably made some other mistakes, but I’m not the only one. Oh yes, it’s not -ology that’s the suffix, taking the o away from Theo (God), it’s -logy (study of)…so got that wrong too.

Do we recall that Thomas Aquinas did some heavy lifting, theologically speaking? Yet what happened? He had a mystical experience one day, saying Mass.
After his morning Mass, he was accustomed to dictating to secretaries on his erudite books…using up to three at a time, giving a long sentence to one, moving to the other, then the other, even on three different works…
Reportedly…after the mystical experience, he entered the sacristy mute. When asked by a scribe, “Father, aren’t you going to continue on your Summa (Theologica)?” Thomas replied:
“It’s all straw.”
plato.stanford.edu/entries/aquinas/
en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas

I’m paraphrasing. and I’m also shaking the dust off my sandals, because I’ve lived most of my life disoriented…and theology is precise as slaughterhouse knives…
and what use has Jesus for the disenfranchised, dissheveled, decrepit, diseased and discouraged?

 

[mathematoons]

Johnbres2,

I have the same problem as you. I tried Marian devotion, but I ended up overdoing it, and now that God helped me see the light, I see that much of what is done regarding Mary is idolatry, because it puts Mary equal to, or often above, Jesus. The Church does not teach so much devotion, but just allows it. We are free to have devotion or not as long as we believe the right things (she was ever virgin, immaculately conceived, bodily assumed into Heaven, etc.), or so I’ve been told. But we must remember that she is just a creature. There are Catholics who only pray to God and just honor Mary from a distance without having “a personal relationship” with her.

Most Catholics do worship Mary. Look at the Marian threads and you’ll see what I mean. But it is not Church teaching.

 

[brb3]

Johnbres2,

I have the same problem as you. I tried Marian devotion, but I ended up overdoing it, and now that God helped me see the light, I see that much of what is done regarding Mary is idolatry, because it puts Mary equal to, or often above, Jesus. The Church does not teach so much devotion, but just allows it. We are free to have devotion or not as long as we believe the right things (she was ever virgin, immaculately conceived, bodily assumed into Heaven, etc.), or so I’ve been told. But we must remember that she is just a creature. There are Catholics who only pray to God and just honor Mary from a distance without having “a personal relationship” with her.

Most Catholics do worship Mary. Look at the Marian threads and you’ll see what I mean. But it is not Church teaching.

Wow … what a personal testimony ! Thanks for sharing your experience with Marian devotion !

 

[mathematoons]

Wow … what a personal testimony ! Thanks for sharing your experience with Marian devotion !

You’re welcome. I hope to help others stay away from where I was. The scary thing is, I was following the examples of saints!

Marian devotion may work for some who can do things without overdoing them (I can’t, hence my weight problem ), but it is not for everyone. It’s probably not good for most, given how many saints’ writings extol idolatry of Mary.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Wow … what a personal testimony ! Thanks for sharing your experience with Marian devotion !

Personal testimonies only reflect one person’s view.

**ONE person comes on to say that he THINKS a LOT of Catholics ‘worship’ Mary. IMO that should be taken with a grain of salt. BRB, you have seen a lot more people who have given personal testimonies that they, and the Catholics they know, emphatically do NOT worship Mary. **

If you were in a city and approached 100 people and asked them if they thought that a given restaurant was a good value, and 99 people said it was, and ONE said it wasn’t, wouldn’t you be more inclined to trust the judgment of the 99? Wouldn’t you think that the ‘one’ person might have had a bad day, but that on the ‘testimony’ of 99 others, the odds were that this was very much an aberration from the normal?

Wouldn’t it be a good idea to treat ‘testimonies’ about Mary in the same way? You’ve seen a lot more people who report they do NOT worship her. . .wouldn’t it be sensible to think that this is the TRUE situation and that anybody who reports otherwise might have seen an aberration? That they might be wrong in their perception, or just happen to have seen a person ‘go overboard’ and assumed that because one person did, EVERY Catholic does?

 

[brb3]

Personal testimonies only reflect one person’s view.

**ONE person comes on to say that he THINKS a LOT of Catholics ‘worship’ Mary. IMO that should be taken with a grain of salt. BRB, you have seen a lot more people who have given personal testimonies that they, and the Catholics they know, emphatically do NOT worship Mary. **

If you were in a city and approached 100 people and asked them if they thought that a given restaurant was a good value, and 99 people said it was, and ONE said it wasn’t, wouldn’t you be more inclined to trust the judgment of the 99? Wouldn’t you think that the ‘one’ person might have had a bad day, but that on the ‘testimony’ of 99 others, the odds were that this was very much an aberration from the normal?

Wouldn’t it be a good idea to treat ‘testimonies’ about Mary in the same way? You’ve seen a lot more people who report they do NOT worship her. . .wouldn’t it be sensible to think that this is the TRUE situation and that anybody who reports otherwise might have seen an aberration? That they might be wrong in their perception, or just happen to have seen a person ‘go overboard’ and assumed that because one person did, EVERY Catholic does?

Fair enough…point taken.

Now, from your defense I’d presume your Marian devotion has been very different. Send me a PM …of your experience with Prayers to Mary. I pray to Mary occasionally, but its just to thank her for any help she can provide and to tell her she is best possible mother to us …and to Christ. I never have felt weird or uncomfortable kneeling in Church at Mary’s booth, but I don’t get a confidence that she can help me …like I do when praying to her Son. Thats why I believe we should normatively pray directly to Christ.

Am I wrong ?