Church Mariology making me nuts!

[TOME]

Johnbres2, among the many contributions to this discussion I noticed one person included the names of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI) and Fr. Hans Urs von Balthasar. I would suggest that you read their book Mary; The Church at the Source.
I am tempted to add my own thoughts to this thread; however, I think if I did I would be doing and injustice to their work; so I hope you will read this book (it’s not even 200 pages).

 

[stewstew03]

Johnbres2,

I have the same problem as you. I tried Marian devotion, but I ended up overdoing it, and now that God helped me see the light, I see that much of what is done regarding Mary is idolatry, because it puts Mary equal to, or often above, Jesus. The Church does not teach so much devotion, but just allows it. We are free to have devotion or not as long as we believe the right things (she was ever virgin, immaculately conceived, bodily assumed into Heaven, etc.), or so I’ve been told. But we must remember that she is just a creature. There are Catholics who only pray to God and just honor Mary from a distance without having “a personal relationship” with her.

Most Catholics do worship Mary. Look at the Marian threads and you’ll see what I mean. But it is not Church teaching.

Most Catholics worship Mary? You made this up.

 

[mathematoons]

Most Catholics worship Mary? You made this up.

Thanks for calling me a liar. Most Catholics I have met, here or in real life, put Mary above Jesus. They have told me this straight out. If that’s not worship, I don’t know what is.

 

[juliamajor]

.

Thanks for calling me a liar. Most Catholics I have met, here or in real life, put Mary above Jesus. They have told me this straight out. If that’s not worship, I don’t know what is.

First that is just not true. That is an exaggeration. Second many people (women) especially can find Mary attractive because she is not a male power figure. I know a woman who wad abused terribly by her father and found comfort from mary. The thing is she draws people to her Son and not the other way around. What you perceive may not be true simply because People are working out their salvation As best as they can with the lives they’ve been given and dealing with pain of their past.

 

[Immacolata]

Thanks for calling me a liar. Most Catholics I have met, here or in real life, put Mary above Jesus. They have told me this straight out. If that’s not worship, I don’t know what is.

Just because most Catholics that you have met said they “put Mary above Jesus” does not mean that all Catholics do so. You may have encountered them, but many of us have not, either here or in real life; I feel you are making a few broad statements on Catholics and their relationship with Mary.

 

[mathematoons]

Just because most Catholics that you have met said they “put Mary above Jesus” does not mean that all Catholics do so. You may have encountered them, but many of us have not, either here or in real life; I feel you are making a few broad statements on Catholics and their relationship with Mary.

I did not say “all,” but “most.” Look who’s making the broad statements.

 

[mathematoons]

.

First that is just not true. That is an exaggeration. Second many people (women) especially can find Mary attractive because she is not a male power figure. I know a woman who wad abused terribly by her father and found comfort from mary. The thing is she draws people to her Son and not the other way around. What you perceive may not be true simply because People are working out their salvation As best as they can with the lives they’ve been given and dealing with pain of their past.

She draws people to her son, but my experience is that people don’t listen to her. I didn’t until i couldn’t ignore it anymore. Anyone who puts Mary above Jesus worships her, case closed. Whenever someone puts what is not divine above what is, that is idolatry.

Comfort is not what we’re here for. We are here to know, love, and serve God. Not Mary, and certainly not ourselves.

 

[Lochias]

Thanks for calling me a liar. Most Catholics I have met, here or in real life, put Mary above Jesus. They have told me this straight out. If that’s not worship, I don’t know what is.

All just your opinion. The Church does not say what you say, and it has 2000+ years of wisdom and experience that you, frankly, don’t. Statements like yours always assume that millions of people down through the ages must have been wrong…including the saints, in your own words.

Do you not realize how prideful and arrogant that sounds? Catholics do not worship Mary if they abide by the guidelines and common sense of the Church, but I feel as though you yourself have made Pride an idol in your life.

 

[juliamajor]

She draws people to her son, but my experience is that people don’t listen to her. I didn’t until i couldn’t ignore it anymore. Anyone who puts Mary above Jesus worships her, case closed. Whenever someone puts what is not divine above what is, that is idolatry.

Comfort is not what we’re here for. We are here to know, love, and serve God. Not Mary, and certainly not ourselves./QUOTEr.
We are not here to be a comfort one to the other?
Or love and serve each other and God.if we have a personal relationship with the Lord and disregard our neighbor what does it profit us.
Love covers a multitude of sins and the walking wounded of this world don’t need your judgement. Guide those who are ignorant.don’t condemn them. That is not your right!

 

[Immacolata]

I did not say “all,” but “most.” Look who’s making the broad statements.

I noticed you said “most”. I don’t believe you fully understood my words: I said because MOST of the Catholics you know “worship” Mary does not mean that ALL who venerate her are worshiping her. There is no need to get rude.

All just your opinion. The Church does not say what you say, and it has 2000+ years of wisdom and experience that you, frankly, don’t. Statements like yours always assume that millions of people down through the ages must have been wrong…including the saints, in your own words.

Do you not realize how prideful and arrogant that sounds? Catholics do not worship Mary if they abide by the guidelines and common sense of the Church, but I feel as though you yourself have made Pride an idol in your life.

I agree.

 

[mathematoons]

All just your opinion. The Church does not say what you say, and it has 2000+ years of wisdom and experience that you, frankly, don’t. Statements like yours always assume that millions of people down through the ages must have been wrong…including the saints, in your own words.

Do you not realize how prideful and arrogant that sounds? Catholics do not worship Mary if they abide by the guidelines and common sense of the Church, but I feel as though you yourself have made Pride an idol in your life.

Look who’s talking. Get off your high “look how humble I am” horse.

What I’m saying is that few Catholics I know give a [expletive] about guidelines or common sense of the Church. Most elevate their own beliefs above those of the Church. And over-the-top Marian devotion is one of those beliefs.

 

[juliamajor]

Look who’s talking. Get off your high “look how humble I am” horse.

What I’m saying is that few Catholics I know give a [expletive] about guidelines or common sense of the Church. Most elevate their own beliefs above those of the Church. And over-the-top Marian devotion is one of those beliefs.

Let’s. Take a breath.
Easy guys

 

[Immacolata]

Look who’s talking. Get off your high “look how humble I am” horse.

What I’m saying is that few Catholics I know give a [expletive] about guidelines or common sense of the Church. Most elevate their own beliefs above those of the Church. And over-the-top Marian devotion is one of those beliefs.

I’m not going to pursue this subject any further, unless I feel I can be of any (name removed by moderator)ut. However, I would just like to know - where did Lochias say, or imply, that they were higher than you? I agree with this:

Let’s. Take a breath.
Easy guys

I think this subject is starting to get a little too heated and uncharitable words are starting to be thrown around.

 

[Lochias]

Look who’s talking. Get off your high “look how humble I am” horse.

What I’m saying is that few Catholics I know give a [expletive] about guidelines or common sense of the Church. Most elevate their own beliefs above those of the Church. And over-the-top Marian devotion is one of those beliefs.

I can’t speak to your personal experiences, but neither can you speak to the experiences of “most Catholics”, because there’s no possible way you can know “most” of over a billion people.

Also, not knowing anything about who you are, I can only assume that your opinions about “over-the-top Marian devotion” are just that: opinions. The Church has its guidelines, and I can say that all of the Catholics that I know are obedient to those guidelines.

So, my experience directly contradicts yours. What does that say to you?

 

[Lochias]

Let’s. Take a breath.
Easy guys

I’m cool.

I think this subject is starting to get a little too heated and uncharitable words are starting to be thrown around.

Indeed. No need to catch any heat from the Powers That Be.

 

[stewstew03]

Thanks for calling me a liar. Most Catholics I have met, here or in real life, put Mary above Jesus. They have told me this straight out. If that’s not worship, I don’t know what is.

Point out where I called you a liar. You made that up too (I’m seeing a pattern).

 

[Mark121359]

Most Catholics I have met, here or in real life, put Mary above Jesus. They have told me this straight out. If that’s not worship, I don’t know what is.

Do you realize how ridiculous this statement is. I mean, by your standards better than half the Catholic faithful including all the Saints and popes are bonafide heretics! I think that you need to pump the brakes a little bit, ya think? Take a close look at this quote from a declared Doctor of the Church;

“Do not be afraid of loving the Blessed Virgin too much. You can never love her enough. And Jesus will be very happy, because the Blessed Virgin is His Mother.”~St. Therese of Lisieux

Or from this Saint;

*Let Mary never be far from your lips or heart. And to obtain the fruit of her prayers, do not forget the example of her life. With her support, you will never fall. Beneath her protection, you will never fear. Under her guidance, you will never tire. And with her help, you will reach your heavenly goal.
St. Bernard of Clairvaux *

Or this one;

*Apart from the Son of God, no creature in the world was so exalted as Mary. For no creature in the world ever humbled itself so much as she did!

St. Bernardine of Siena*

Now take a look at this last quote;

Originally Posted by mathematoons
Marian devotion may work for some who can do things without overdoing them (I can’t, hence my weight problem ), but it is not for everyone. It’s probably not good for most, given how many saints’ writings extol idolatry of Mary.

Now I ask everyone here which quote seems the most heretical?

 

[MHT32]

Mathematoons, I gotta make a post on this. I know what you’re saying, there are some Catholics who seem more devoted to Mary than to Jesus. And you think that some are worshiping her. True worship revolves around sacrifice, thats the biblical form of worship. Every Sunday (every day for that matter) at mass, who is the sacrifice made to? To Mary? No, the sacrifice is made to God. That is worship. Every Sunday, we are worshiping God and God alone. Praying a lot to Mary is not worship. (Unless its adoration prayer, and I dont know any Catholics who pray like that to Mary) Think of the relationship with Mary as to one with your mother. You can’t love your mother enough, you maintain a relationship with her by keeping contact with her. If I called my mom daily and talked with her for an hour and ask her to pray for me, is that worship? No, so how is honoring Mary different from honoring our own mothers? Hope it makes sense.
-Matt

 

[mathematoons]

Do you realize how ridiculous this statement is. I mean, by your standards better than half the Catholic faithful including all the Saints and popes are bonafide heretics! I think that you need to pump the brakes a little bit, ya think? Take a close look at this quote from a declared Doctor of the Church;

Now I ask everyone here which quote seems the most heretical?

I find it interesting that you won’t bring in actual official Church teaching or even Scripture. Those are what I go by. Not the fallible word of man. Adoration goes to God alone, and all the writings of all the saints will never change that.

 

[mathematoons]

Mathematoons, I gotta make a post on this. I know what you’re saying, there are some Catholics who seem more devoted to Mary than to Jesus. And you think that some are worshiping her. True worship revolves around sacrifice, thats the biblical form of worship. Every Sunday (every day for that matter) at mass, who is the sacrifice made to? To Mary? No, the sacrifice is made to God. That is worship. Every Sunday, we are worshiping God and God alone. Praying a lot to Mary is not worship. (Unless its adoration prayer, and I dont know any Catholics who pray like that to Mary)

Anyone who is more devoted to Mary than to Jesus puts her above God, since Jesus is God. That is idolatry. I don’t know how much more clear I can be.

I’m not saying all Marian devotion is idolatry. But the moment a person is more devoted to her than to Jesus, that’s idolatry.