Church Mariology making me nuts!

[Mark121359]

I find it interesting that you won’t bring in actual official Church teaching or even Scripture. Those are what I go by. Not the fallible word of man. Adoration goes to God alone, and all the writings of all the saints will never change that.

I’m beginning to think what’s the use. No offense, but many on this thread and other threads as well have tried to point you to Church teachings but to no avail. You say of the Saints and various Popes;

Not the fallible word of man. Adoration goes to God alone, and all the writings of all the saints will never change that.

As compared to your word? Here again is a starting point to see what the Church teaches about Mary. I urge you to check it out. If not, the best of luck to you and May God Bless You!
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marymenu.htm

Peace, Mark

 

[adrift]

Anyone who is more devoted to Mary than to Jesus puts her above God, since Jesus is God. That is idolatry. I don’t know how much more clear I can be.

I’m not saying all Marian devotion is idolatry. But the moment a person is more devoted to her than to Jesus, that’s idolatry.

More devoted to Mary than to Jesus begs the question of what is more? How do you measure it? The person could not possible be devoted to Mary without putting her son first. It becomes an oxymoron. When you say it is idolatry you are saying that the person believes Mary is a god and worships her. Awhile back I heard of a group who called her a god. It is a New Heresy but generally when people make the claims as seen here the ones they are talking about do not claim her as a god. If they do not say she is a god, you can’t possibly label it as idolatry for it lacks the essential elements for idolatry.

 

[Mark121359]

More devoted to Mary than to Jesus begs the question of what is more? How do you measure it? The person could not possible be devoted to Mary without putting her son first. It becomes an oxymoron. When you say it is idolatry you are saying that the person believes Mary is a god and worships her…

Exactly! I mean, who can read someone’s heart and soul and declare to them that they’re worshipping Mary!.. besides the Lord of course. … Seriously?.. But, obviously some on here think they can.

 

[nicolakirwan]

I am very sympathetic to the original poster, as well as others who have posted; and I think that perhaps those most fervent in their defense of Marian devotion might take more pains to understand why many who are truly devoted to Christ perceive the Marian devotions they’ve encountered to at the very least appear idolatrous.

Two main points:

1. Acknowledging correct doctrine does not preclude one from having a sinful heart.
2. That popular forms of piety are not “dogmatic” and not mandated by the Church is precisely a cause to exercise additional discernment when encountering something that one perceives to be “off”.

Regarding the 1st, the knee jerk response to individuals questioning popular devotional practices seems to be explanations of Marian dogmas as well as arguments about hyperdulia and dulia versus latria. Such is all well and good, but to acknowledge such philosophical distinctions does not actually say whether someone or a group of people are in actuality offering one or the other. One can acknowledge a truth and yet not realize that one is violating that very truth in practice. (the heart is deceitful, as Scripture says). Jesus confronted the Pharisees about this when it came to their various interpretations of the law–being so particular about upholding it, but grossly violating God’s will all the same. I am not implying that anyone here is a Pharisee, only that sin is common to man and we are all to take a lesson from their errors and even identify within ourselves ways in which we might be subject to the same reprimand.

I fear that for some Catholics, they do not believe that anything could be improperly done toward Mary, so long as they do not intellectually believe that she is God. But the problem is that idolatry is not merely intellectual, but it is a matter of the heart. Remembering that the Catholic Church is global, this issue is particularly pertinent in Central and South America. People parading down the street carrying a huge statue of Mary, celebrating, etc. **If only for pastoral reasons, if only to be able to guide believers into proper devotion and teach them how to avoid improper devotion, one must be able to have room to say what is and is not appropriate or to point out that someone or a group of people have done too much. **

(The Louis de Montfort book is actually not particularly helpful on this point because he does not address discerning idolatry towards Mary and actually implies that to question Marian devotions means one is overly critical. But attempting to discern and being critical are very different things.)

 

[nicolakirwan]

Regarding the 2nd point, as the Church has not established for all believers that it is unequivocally right to kneel before and kiss statues of Mary, sing songs of praise to her and the like, one must acknowledge the possibility of error on the part of individuals and even expect, as sin is common to man, that idolatry will be found in our midst as often as any other sin. Even the example of clergy and the Pope cannot establish these things as right, as papal infallibility does not mean impeccability, and the Church has grossly erred in its practices before. (Again, practices are to be distinguished from the dogmas themselves).

Furthermore, many Catholics put people in the strange position of seeing something and then being told it’s not what it looks like. It looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck, but really it’s a chicken? To give a non-Catholic example, when I was visiting an Orthodox Church, they brought in a “wonder-working icon” and held an entire liturgy of prayer to the Theotokos. The icon was set at the front of the tiny church, and everyone sung and prayed and kneeled and bowed before the icon as the service progressed. Had I known that was what was taking place, I never would have attended, nor would I do so again. But of course there will be many to insist that such a service did not constitute “adoration” or improper worship at all. I must ask, if not that, then what would?

The entirety of Protestant Christianity views such practices as idolatrous, and the more “open minded” Christians who don’t outright reject Catholicism are still uncomfortable. There are plenty of Catholics, including some who have posted in this thread, who feel the same; or who, if they do not outright question it, just intuitively will not engage in Marian devotion in such a way. I mention it only because this is not just the perception of “one person” as it was said above. There are plenty of people who have a sincere love of Jesus and desire to follow Him who do not see that He has asked us or ever would ask us to offer these things to His mother. And I will reiterate that this is not about the dogmas, but the popular forms of piety that have arisen over the centuries which are not beyond error.

What happened to Paul’s words that if eating meat caused his brother to stumble that he would never again eat meat? If, as the Church says, forms of devotion are not mandatory, why do Catholics insist on allowing them to be a dividing line? For many Protestants, they could accept the idea of Papal authority, as it relates to the authority of the Church Christ founded, but they will not have anything to do with anything they perceive to be sin, including idolatry. And Scripturally, love of the brethren admonishes us to make concessions for one another, even if we truly believe we are in the right.

To care more about praying a certain way, or honoring Mary in a certain way that is not called essential by the Church than one cares about being in unity with other believers seems to itself be evidence of exalting Mary too highly, because one’s particular devotion is made more important than love of neighbor.

Look, I have asked Mary’s intercession and I have experienced some truly amazing things thereby. I am more than happy to call her blessed and to reflect on the great work the Lord did in and through her. But I have honestly cringed several times at things I’ve seen and heard in Catholic gatherings such that I am deeply concerned that Catholics refuse to exercise discernment when it comes to anything regarding Mary, which only seems to be a clear invitation for deception to creep in—as people will just accept it so long as it’s touted as being done to honor the Mother of God.

 

[brb3]

Well stated …Welcome Home & bring your Protestant brethren too !!

 

[nicolakirwan]

Well stated …Welcome Home & bring your Protestant brethren too !!

Thanks

 

[Mark121359]

The entirety of Protestant Christianity views such practices as idolatrous, and the more “open minded” Christians who don’t outright reject Catholicism are still uncomfortable. There are plenty of Catholics, including some who have posted in this thread, who feel the same; or who, if they do not outright question it, just intuitively will not engage in Marian devotion in such a way. .

And therein lies a big part of the problem. Today on EWTN Radio Open Line, Colin Donovan addressed a question from a caller about protestant problems with Catholics “worshipping” Mary, and why Catholics pray to her. He mentioned how prayer is just a request or a call for help.Many Protestants equate prayer as worship. So praying to anybody but Our Lord is seen as blasphemous to many of them. I get the feeling that to some of the converts here on CAF and elsewhere, Mary and the Saints are to be avoided like the plague. And it really troubles me to say this. Time and time again on these types of threads I hear something like this… “Yeah, but the Church doesn’t say you have to have devotion to her” or “Mary isn’t necessary.” It’s as if your saying she’s unimportant! The fact is Mary is a huge part of our faith. From the CCC…

971 “All generations will call me blessed”:*** “The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.”*** The Church rightly honors “the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration.” The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.

From a Doctor of the Church;

“Do not be afraid of loving the Blessed Virgin too much. You can never love her enough. And Jesus will be very happy, because the Blessed Virgin is His Mother.”~St. Therese of Lisieux

It’s as if the CCC and quotes from Saints mean nothing to you. “They’re just flawed people just like anyone else” you’ll say. My take on it is, if you’re uncomfortable with Mary then don’t pray to her. It’s offensive to many Catholics to suggest that because they show Mary more love than someone else that somehow they should now be looked on with suspicion. Or because they pray before a statue of her, and God forbid they should happen to kiss the statue, they’re under suspicion of being idolatrous. I would just love to know how some people seem to have acquired this gift to read someones heart and judge it to be “worshipping” someone other than Our Lord!

Peace, Mark

 

[nicolakirwan]

And therein lies a big part of the problem. Today on EWTN Radio Open Line, Colin Donovan addressed a question from a caller about protestant problems with Catholics “worshipping” Mary, and why Catholics pray to her. He mentioned how prayer is just a request or a call for help.Many Protestants equate prayer as worship. So praying to anybody but Our Lord is seen as blasphemous to many of them. I get the feeling that to some of the converts here on CAF and elsewhere, Mary and the Saints are to be avoided like the plague. And it really troubles me to say this. Time and time again on these types of threads I hear something like this… “Yeah, but the Church doesn’t say you have to have devotion to her” or “Mary isn’t necessary.” It’s as if your saying she’s unimportant! The fact is Mary is a huge part of our faith. From the CCC…

From a Doctor of the Church;

It’s as if the CCC and quotes from Saints mean nothing to you. “They’re just flawed people just like anyone else” you’ll say. My take on it is, if you’re uncomfortable with Mary then don’t pray to her. It’s offensive to many Catholics to suggest that because they show Mary more love than someone else that somehow they should now be looked on with suspicion. Or because they pray before a statue of her, and God forbid they should happen to kiss the statue, they’re under suspicion of being idolatrous. I would just love to know how some people seem to have acquired this gift to read someones heart and judge it to be “worshipping” someone other than Our Lord!

Peace, Mark

Well, one, asking for intercession-as I mentioned-is not actually what I addressed. What the Catechism says is “special devotion” does not itself justify any particular practice. And when we look at the whole of human history, at Scripture, and at the religious practices of people around the world today, certain actions do and have generally always been associated with the worship of a deity. It is exactly for that reason that seeing such things in relation to Mary triggers for many the perception that such worship is taking place. So for people to act as if those who are concerned are just being overly judgmental is, I think, being dismissive, and such dismissiveness and/or defensiveness is the reason that many who might otherwise be drawn into the Church conclude that Catholics are not taking the danger of idolatry seriously.

 

[Mark121359]

So for people to act as if those who are concerned are just being overly judgmental is, I think, being dismissive, and such dismissiveness and/or defensiveness is the reason that many who might otherwise be drawn into the Church conclude that Catholics are not taking the danger of idolatry seriously.

And that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. But many, and I happen to be one of them, think that some people happen to be overly judgmental. That’s my opinion and I’m entitled to it. I’m a Catholic who happens to be very devoted to Mary, and unabashedly so. But do I worship her? Absolutely not. That’s an astounding accusation to make of people they don’t know personally don’t you think? And as far as all this talk of others thinking that Catholics are not taking the danger of idolatry seriously,…

 

[Mintaka]

You’re right.

Mother’s Day and Father’s Day have to go, because they create the perception of holy days for our gods of ancestor worship.

Memorial Day, Pearl Harbor Day, Lexington and Concord, and 9/11 all have to stop being commemorated, because they create the perception that we have holy days for our gods of the valiant dead.

Everybody’s birthday has to go, too. Cake and presents is way too reminiscent of votive sacrifices to Astarte.

To a certain extent, I’m willing to bend over backwards for the sake of my separated Christian brothers’ tender feelings. But not to the extent that I stomp over my mother and father’s tender feelings, or disrespect our heroic dead, or stop having birthdays and Christmas like a Jehovah’s Witness or a Puritan. Or pretend I don’t love Mary, which is apparently the only thing that would make some people comfy. If some people want to be cold to their friends and family among the saints, they can be cold without help from me.

 

[Mark121359]

To a certain extent, I’m willing to bend over backwards for the sake of my separated Christian brothers’ tender feelings. But not to the extent that I stomp over my mother and father’s tender feelings, or disrespect our heroic dead, or stop having birthdays and Christmas like a Jehovah’s Witness or a Puritan. Or pretend I don’t love Mary, which is apparently the only thing that would make some people comfy. If some people want to be cold to their friends and family among the saints, they can be cold without help from me.

Amen! And well said!

Peace, Mark

 

[Cranch]

If, as the Church says, forms of devotion are not mandatory, why do Catholics insist on allowing them to be a dividing line? For many Protestants, they could accept the idea of Papal authority, as it relates to the authority of the Church Christ founded, but they will not have anything to do with anything they perceive to be sin, including idolatry.

Boy does that sound arrogant.

And Scripturally, love of the brethren admonishes us to make concessions for one another, even if we truly believe we are in the right.

To care more about praying a certain way, or honoring Mary in a certain way that is not called essential by the Church than one cares about being in unity with other believers seems to itself be evidence of exalting Mary too highly, because one’s particular devotion is made more important than love of neighbor.

Does this approach only apply to Catholics? Try flipping it around. Or are Protestants not admonished “to make concessions for one another”?

 

[Mintaka]

And if you can’t love your saintly neighbors in heaven, how can you possibly love your sinful neighbors on earth?

 

[nicolakirwan]

There’s a level of defensiveness that is puzzling. I haven’t read one thing posted that is disparaging of Mary. And even the implication that one cannot love or honor Mary and other saints without embracing every type of devotional practice to that end is very misguided… I cannot imagine Mary being so jealous over her own glory that she would be angry with those who question certain practices in sincere concern.

We are uniquivocaly called to unity-that is a command. It was Jesus’ prayer-that which He labored over in the garden before being apprehended. Those things which are not commanded, even if permissible, should be secondary to that which is. Thus, Christ spoke about straining out gnats yet swallowing camels.

It is not a personal attack against anyone–these things pertain to our common faith. It actually isn’t about personal opinions and preferences.

 

[Mark121359]

There’s a level of defensiveness that is puzzling. *** I haven’t read one thing posted that is disparaging of Mary.*** And even the implication that one cannot love or honor Mary and other saints without embracing every type of devotional practice to that end is very misguided… I cannot imagine Mary being so jealous over her own glory that she would be angry with those who question certain practices in sincere concern.

.

Maybe so, but go back through all the posts and look at all the disparaging remarks about those who our deeply devoted to her! Therein lies the rub. That is where the “level of defensiveness” lies IMO. I sometimes wonder if they would even criticise JPll, for no one could love Mary any more than he did!

 

[Lochias]

There’s a level of defensiveness that is puzzling. I haven’t read one thing posted that is disparaging of Mary.

Choosing to do her less honor than her station demands is demeaning. I’m fairly certain Jesus would agree.

And even the implication that one cannot love or honor Mary and other saints without embracing every type of devotional practice to that end is very misguided… I cannot imagine Mary being so jealous over her own glory that she would be angry with those who question certain practices in sincere concern.

No one has made that implication. And furthermore, Mary might not say a thing about the disparagement she receives, but I can gauran-damn-tee that her Son is likely less than happy about it…because He’s a good Son.

We are uniquivocaly called to unity-that is a command. It was Jesus’ prayer-that which He labored over in the garden before being apprehended. Those things which are not commanded, even if permissible, should be secondary to that which is. Thus, Christ spoke about straining out gnats yet swallowing camels.

Your opinion, and that’s all it is: An opinion.

It is not a personal attack against anyone–these things pertain to our common faith. It actually isn’t about personal opinions and preferences.

Bullplop. If it wasn’t about personal opinions and preferences, you wouldn’t be making a fuss about it here. Try again, and for the love of God, stop demeaning my Mother Mary.

 

[Mark121359]

Bullplop. If it wasn’t about personal opinions and preferences, you wouldn’t be making a fuss about it here. Try again, and for the love of God, stop demeaning my Mother Mary.

 

[nicolakirwan]

I’m not sure what experiences others have had, but some people are in positions of lay spiritual leadership within their congregations. Some, such as teachers, catechists, RCIA leaders and the like, have some responsibility for both explaining and setting an example of proper doctrine and healthy piety. Clearly not everyone does. I however, have in the past and will in the future. If all someone is concerned about is what happens in their prayer closet because they have no responsibility to anyone but themselves, then I could see how that person might think the question purely an individual one.

Moreover, some are in the position of interacting regularly with those who are not Catholic and attempting to reach out and explain the faith. Many Catholics are not so concerned, but some are. So yes, these questions surpass personal preferences and apply to our common faith.

Furthermore, my concern is no more than an attempt to find a practical application for what is stated in Lumen Genitum:

1. The sacred synod teaches this Catholic doctrine advisedly and at the same time admonishes all the sons of the Church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered, and that the practices and exercises of devotion towards her, recommended by the teaching authority of the Church in the course of centuries be highly esteemed, and that those decrees, which were given in the early days regarding the cult images of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the saints, be religiously observed.[22] But it strongly urges theologians and preachers of the word of God to be careful to refrain as much from all false exaggeration as from too summary an attitude in considering the special dignity of the Mother of God.[23] Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church’s magisterium, let them **rightly illustrate **the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always refer to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity, and devotion. Let them carefully refrain from whatever might by word or deed lead the separated brethren or any others whatsoever into error about the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to recognize the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love towards our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.

Also, notice that many have complained that others are judging them but have no compunctions about making judgments about the hearts of others. There are some who have insight to offer, and others who simply dislike the fact that the question is asked. Those who have something insightful to add without attempting to shut down the inquiry are most appreciated.

 

[Cranch]

Furthermore, my concern is no more than an attempt to find a practical application for what is stated in Lumen Genitum:

1. The sacred synod teaches this Catholic doctrine advisedly and at the same time admonishes all the sons of the Church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered, and that the practices and exercises of devotion towards her, recommended by the teaching authority of the Church in the course of centuries be highly esteemed, and that those decrees, which were given in the early days regarding the cult images of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the saints, be religiously observed.[22] But it strongly urges theologians and preachers of the word of God to be careful to refrain as much from all false exaggeration as from too summary an attitude in considering the special dignity of the Mother of God.[23] Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church’s magisterium, let them **rightly illustrate **the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always refer to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity, and devotion. Let them carefully refrain from whatever might by word or deed lead the separated brethren or any others whatsoever into error about the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to recognize the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love towards our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.

Thy glory is great; for thou art exalted above all women of renown, and thou art shown to be more queenly than all queens.—Julius Africanus, c. 160–240

Meekly, then, did grace make election of the pure Mary alone out of all generations. For she proved herself prudent truly in all things; neither has any woman been born like her in all generations.—St. Gregory of Neocaesarea, d. 270-275

Be mindful of us, most holy virgin, who after childbirth didst remain virgin; and grant to us for these small words great gifts from the riches of they graces, O thou full of grace. Accept them as though they were true and adequate praises in they honor; and if there is in them any virtue and any praise, we offer them as a hymn from ourselves and from all creatures to thee, full of grace, Lady, Queen, Mistress, Mother of God, and Ark of sanctification.—St. Athanasius, d. 373

holy God-mother, and ever-virgin Mary;

all-holy, pure, most glorious, blessed Lady, the God-Mother and Ever-Virgin Mary,—The Divine Liturgy of James, 4th century

I confess to the economy of the Son in the flesh, and that the holy Mary, who gave birth to Him according to the flesh, was Mother of God. I acknowledge also the holy apostles, prophets, and martyrs; and I invoke them to supplication to God, that through them, that is, through their mediation, the merciful God may be propitious to me, and that a ransom may be made and given me for my sins. Wherefore also I honour and kiss the features of their images, inasmuch as they have been handed down from the holy apostles, and are not forbidden, but are in all our churches.—St. Basil the Great, d. 379

in the womb of the Virgin Mary no one was conceived before Him, and no one after Him

the permanent virginity of the blessed Mary even after child-bearing—St. Augustine of Hippo, d. 430

Concerning the holy and much-lauded ever-virgin one, Mary, the Mother of God The ever-virgin One thus remains even after the birth still virgin, having never at any time up till death consorted with a man.

Must there not therefore be a Mother of God who bore God incarnate? Assuredly she who played the part of the Creator’s servant and mother is in all strictness and truth in reality God’s Mother and Lady and Queen over all created things.

It was fitting that the she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped when giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father, It was fitting that God’s Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God.—St. John Damascene, d. before 787