Church Says Girl's Communion Not Valid

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I agree with the Church on this one. I can’t imagine what that mother is thinking, making such a big deal about this. Isn’t anything sacred any more? Besides the obvious solution of simply drinking from the chalice and bypassing the host, isn’t there another possibility? I was always taught that Jesus is totally present in the Eucharist, even in the tiniest piece. If the priest just broke off a tiny piece, maybe one fourth of an inch in diameter, wouldn’t that be another answer? I am not a doctor or a nurse, but I would be willing to bet that such a tiny amount wouldn’t harm the girl. I am always irritated at how the secular press makes such a big deal of things, especially things that have to do with receiving communion.
 
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Listener:
I am not a doctor or a nurse, but I would be willing to bet that such a tiny amount wouldn’t harm the girl.
Dont bet too boldly.
I am a nurse and I can assure you that there are some people who are so sensitive to this gluten that a very minute amount can make them very sick. I do agree with the other posters. The wine contains the total body, blood , soul and divinity of Jesus. You can recieve under either species and recieve the same grace. Holy communion is not incomplete if you recieve only one species. That was the way ot was for centuries. I think it was as late as vatican II that people started recieving from the chalice. Was communion before that time incomplete because of only the host was recieved. Of course NOT.
 
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Dawn:
jurist12, you said, “just when I am ready to commit to returning something like this happens”…

Don’t let controversies keep you from coming home and receiving Jesus in Holy Communion! It does get frustrating seeing all the bad media that comes out against our Faith. Tell Jesus about your issues, then just step out in faith and obedience. Jesus didn’t say it would be easy to follow Him. Don’t let that “other guy” keep you away!
In Him
Dawn 🙂
First in response to someone else on this thread. I understand that in order to fully receive at Communion one need either drink the Wine or eat the Bread. When I visit a Catholic Church most Catholics receive only the Bread and not both Bread and Wine. In response to Dawn it’s not the mother of the child and her protest and the press that has slowed me down to reconsider coming back to the Catholic Church. To quote Dawn the “other guy” causing to pause and reflect is the response of most Catholics on boards like this that seem to be insensitive to a fellow Catholic whose daughter for whatever reason wont’t just take a sip of Wine and “problem solved”. Like I said in another post on this thread I don’t think Jesus cares whether or not the Communion Host is made of wheat flour or Rice Flour. In Christ, jurist12
 
Fr. Corapi has a series on the catechism and includes something about this topic. According to Fr. Corapi the host can only be flour and water. Maybe its on the net somewhere. If so, someone can put the link up here.

God bless!
 
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joshua1:
Dont bet too boldly.
I am a nurse and I can assure you that there are some people who are so sensitive to this gluten that a very minute amount can make them very sick. I do agree with the other posters. The wine contains the total body, blood , soul and divinity of Jesus. You can recieve under either species and recieve the same grace. Holy communion is not incomplete if you recieve only one species. That was the way ot was for centuries. I think it was as late as vatican II that people started recieving from the chalice. Was communion before that time incomplete because of only the host was recieved. Of course NOT.
I agree with this post whole heartedly. Me, my mother, and my two brothers are celiac. We receive from the chalice, and make sure we arrive early enough at mass to get a seat up front so that we’re some of the first people to to receive. One of my brothers is also autistic, and is so sensitive to the minute amount of gluten that may be left on/in the chalice from lipstick, or a crumb of someone else’s Host, that he will stop speaking for days/start banging his head/regressing in other ways. The rest of us will get violent gastro-intestinal upset with just a little piece of the Host.

More Catholics (and the media) need to be educated about the Eucharist, but there also needs to be more education about celiac and gluten intolerance. Would you tell someone who was allergic to peanuts to take just a little bit, that it couldn’t possibly hurt them?
 
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EsclavoDeCristo:
Fr. Corapi has a series on the catechism and includes something about this topic. According to Fr. Corapi the host can only be flour and water. Maybe its on the net somewhere. If so, someone can put the link up here.

God bless!
From Redemptionis Sacramentum
  1. The Matter of the Most Holy Eucharist
[48.] The bread used in the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharistic Sacrifice must be unleavened, purely of wheat, and recently made so that there is no danger of decomposition.[123] It follows therefore that bread made from another substance, even if it is grain, or if it is mixed with another substance different from wheat to such an extent that it would not commonly be considered wheat bread, does not constitute valid matter for confecting the Sacrifice and the Eucharistic Sacrament.[124] It is a grave abuse to introduce other substances, such as fruit or sugar or honey, into the bread for confecting the Eucharist. Hosts should obviously be made by those who are not only distinguished by their integrity, but also skilled in making them and furnished with suitable tools.[125]

[49.] By reason of the sign, it is appropriate that at least some parts of the Eucharistic Bread coming from the fraction should be distributed to at least some of the faithful in Communion. “Small hosts are, however, in no way ruled out when the number of those receiving Holy Communion or other pastoral needs require it”,[126] and indeed small hosts requiring no further fraction ought customarily to be used for the most part.

[50.] The wine that is used in the most sacred celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice must be natural, from the fruit of the grape, pure and incorrupt, not mixed with other substances.[127] During the celebration itself, a small quantity of water is to be mixed with it. Great care should be taken so that the wine intended for the celebration of the Eucharist is well conserved and has not soured.[128] It is altogether forbidden to use wine of doubtful authenticity or provenance, for the Church requires certainty regarding the conditions necessary for the validity of the sacraments. Nor are other drinks of any kind to be admitted for any reason, as they do not constitute valid matter.
 
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jimmy:
Not only that, but only about 25 to 30 percent of Catholics go to church on sundays.
And, per the reasoning of some posters here:
the majority wins; Sunday Oligation should be removed from the Catholic Church teaching.

Too bad for such posters that their “‘majority win’ method” wasn’t the case when St. Athanasius was alone in the East against the Arian heresy.
 
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jurist12:
Like I said in another post on this thread I don’t think Jesus cares whether or not the Communion Host is made of wheat flour or Rice Flour. In Christ, jurist12
Each individual person may think whatever he or she wants to think.

The Catholic Church, holding steadfast to the Sacred Tradition passed down from the Apostles, disagrees with what you think on this subject.

And I think [as an individual who may think whatever he thinks] that I will obey the Holy Catholic Church on this subject.
 
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Lourdes:
I agree with this post whole heartedly. Me, my mother, and my two brothers are celiac. We receive from the chalice, and make sure we arrive early enough at mass to get a seat up front so that we’re some of the first people to to receive. One of my brothers is also autistic, and is so sensitive to the minute amount of gluten that may be left on/in the chalice from lipstick, or a crumb of someone else’s Host, that he will stop speaking for days/start banging his head/regressing in other ways. The rest of us will get violent gastro-intestinal upset with just a little piece of the Host.

More Catholics (and the media) need to be educated about the Eucharist, but there also needs to be more education about celiac and gluten intolerance. Would you tell someone who was allergic to peanuts to take just a little bit, that it couldn’t possibly hurt them?
I have a question for you. I have read that studies have shown the smallest amout found to cause an immune response is 0.1g of gluten or any other protein in question. How big of a piece of host would that be? Less than that can be tolerated by most celiac folks. The disease, like all disease, comes in many forms and degrees. Drinking the wine, or even mustum, is the solution I know, but what happens if one were to kiss someone who ate apiece of bread, do they have diarrhea, or other symptoms in a short time?

Peanut allergy is not a fair comparison. One can be immediately life threatening and one is not.
 
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fix:
I have a question for you. I have read that studies have shown the smallest amout found to cause an immune response is 0.1g of gluten or any other protein in question. How big of a piece of host would that be? Less than that can be tolerated by most celiac folks. The disease, like all disease, comes in many forms and degrees. Drinking the wine, or even mustum, is the solution I know, but what happens if one were to kiss someone who ate apiece of bread, do they have diarrhea, or other symptoms in a short time?

Peanut allergy is not a fair comparison. One can be immediately life threatening and one is not.
I also suffer from severe peanut and tree nut allergies (and must carry an Epi-Pen and all that) so I am fully aware that they are different, but they are both life threatening. Peanuts will kill me immediately if I’m not careful, consuming the Host will slowly destroy my intestines and lead to an agonizing death by colon cancer at a young age. Somehow, the peanut option almost seems more attractive. I don’t think either is what Jesus would desire, so I am eternally grateful for the opportunity to recieve the Precious Blood.

I am not as severely celiac as the rest of my family - testing with a small piece of Host (maybe 1/4") made me sick; I personally tolerated the low-gluten Host fine but the rest of my family suffered from diarrhea within an hour. Usually we can handle trace amounts once in awhile - except for my autistic brother, who reacts literally to parts per million. He can’t kiss anyone who’s eaten bread and not brushed their teeth (and not even then, if the toothpaste contained gluten, which many do). Gluten can be found in makeup, shampoos and soaps, vinegars, medicines, any food that contains maltodextrin, most with “natural flavorings”, etc. There’s flour in drywall dust, that he cannot breath in. It’s so much more than “just bread”.

You’re absolutely right that it comes in many forms and degrees - each person just in my family is different (for instance, I tolerate more wheat gluten than the others but cannot eat oats, my mother has no problem with oats but cannot handle wheat. None of us do well with barley).

I think the mother in this case is absolutely wrong with how she’s going about things, and in pressing for a rice wafer, but I do feel her frustration at those that say, “just a little piece”. Or 'it’s Jesus, not bread" when she knows that will still make her child sick. Unless you’re the mother, or the child, you don’t know what she can or cannot tolerate. I’ve read that she was “in agony” after receiving the Blood, because of a yeast allergy - if that is also true, she needs to console herself with a Spiritual Communion.
 
aafp.org/afp/980301ap/pruessn.html If you scroll down on this page, you can see some photos of skin rashes associated with celiac, and a list of symptoms. It’s not pretty, or fun, or something anyone wants to have or exaggerate.

From this page: health.discovery.com/encyclopedias/196.html

What are the long-term effects of the disease?
The long-term effects of celiac disease include: · anemia, which is a reduction in the number of red blood cells circulating in the blood · delayed growth · bone loss. Bone loss can cause osteomalacia in adults, with bone pain and tenderness. Bone loss in children is seen as rickets, with bowlegs, a protruding stomach and a pigeon breast in children. · defects of the nervous system · inflammation of the skin · malignant lymphoma

netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/glutenallergy.htm - nice, concise site. Gluten also does not leave the body in several days, so the intestines can start repairing themselves. It can take weeks or months, and every time you get some gluten, even if it’s a little bit, you have to start all over.
 
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jimmy:
Ric, you misunderstand quite a bit of church teaching with this post. We do not have to protect Jesus from the people, people can do nothing to hurt Jesus. We do not have to protect people from God either. We have to protect them from themselves. As Paul writes in 1Corinthians, when you drink the cup of the Lord unworthily you drink judgement upon yourself.

When you eat the body of Christ, you proclaim the teachings of the church. Therefore they can not just hand out the communion to everyone who walks into the church. You must be in Gods grace in order to recieve the body and blood of Christ.
If you are going to use anybody for a source, use what Jesus did with His graces, He healed those that were sinners, He gave comfort to those that couldn’t think for themselves, He was striving about making everybody better.

BTW, Paul thought we wouldn’t even need the Eucharist by now as we would all be dead. I’m not going to let Paul’s pessemistic view of how many people would be accepted by Jesus, cloud the view taught by Jesus that we treat the least like they may be Him, now if you are comfortable witholding Jesus from anybody that may be Jesus that’s fine with me.

Peace
 
ricatholic,

You wrote: “I’m not going to let Paul’s pessemistic view of how many people would be accepted by Jesus, cloud the view taught by Jesus that we treat the least like they may be Him, now if you are comfortable witholding Jesus from anybody that may be Jesus that’s fine with me.”

OK, now you’ve dispensed with Paul as being too pessimistic—how about all of those early Church Fathers who wrote on this same topic? Will you dispense with them as being too pessimistic as well? I’m sorry, but this cavalier attitude towards Church teaching, and the attempt to pit “your” Jesus against the Church is ludicrous and offensive.
 
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ricatholic:
now if you are comfortable witholding Jesus from anybody that may be Jesus that’s fine with me.
From what I’ve read, the only one “withholding Jesus” from the poor girl is her mother (which, by your own words, is a-okay with you).

There is a perfectly valid, perfectly safe way for her to receive Communion, and the representatives of the girl’s diocese have apparently been quite clear that they are willing to give her Communion accordingly.

Maybe the girl’s mother ought to swallow her pride so that her daughter can actually make her First Communion.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
For those who simply want to “parrot” Church Teaching on this issue without bothering to do some further reasearch on this issue here is some info. It seems that not only does the child suffer from Celiac disease but also has allergies to any fermented drink because of the yeast produced as a by product of fermentation. Even low alcohol wine would set off her allergies, even in very small quantities. The mother also stated that even if her daughter could drink wine she would not allow it, even low alcohol wine as she thinks it is inappropriate to allow even communion wine to be given to children. As a parent of an underage child that is her perogative. No doubt some will counter with "well she can still make a “Spiritual Communion”, if anyone says that then what is the point then of receiving the physical elements of Holy Communion? We can simply bypass it and all make a “Spiritual Communion” at Mass with only the Priest consuming the physical Eucharist. My hope is that in this case the Church will see the use of wheat flour to make Communion Bread as a cultural prejudice and human tradition and not a Divine Precept and allow Communion bread to made of plant or grain flour that people with Gluten/Wheat intolerance can consume in Holy Communion without ill-effect. In Christ, jurist12
 
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ricatholic:
If you are going to use anybody for a source, use what Jesus did with His graces, He healed those that were sinners, He gave comfort to those that couldn’t think for themselves, He was striving about making everybody better.

BTW, Paul thought we wouldn’t even need the Eucharist by now as we would all be dead. I’m not going to let Paul’s pessemistic view of how many people would be accepted by Jesus, cloud the view taught by Jesus that we treat the least like they may be Him, now if you are comfortable witholding Jesus from anybody that may be Jesus that’s fine with me.

Peace
Ric, that is a very anti-christian statement. You reject the holy scriptures because they do not fit your view of Christ. It does not matter when Paul thought the world would end, it hasn’t ended, so that does notchange the fact that we must examine ourselves before communion.

Yes, we are supposed to treat each person as if they are Christ, but that does not mean that they can go do what ever they want and then recieve the Eucharist. It sounds like what your saying though is that we should allow everyone to send themsleves to Hell by sinning. As it says in Corinthians, you drink judgement upon yourself when you do not discern the body and blood of Christ. In other words you are sending yourself to Hell. Now the fact that we should treat all like Christ is no reason to allow them to sin and go against Gods will. You should always discourage people from sinning instead of encouraging it.
 
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jimmy:
Ric, that is a very anti-christian statement. You reject the holy scriptures because they do not fit your view of Christ. It does not matter when Paul thought the world would end, it hasn’t ended, so that does notchange the fact that we must examine ourselves before communion.

Yes, we are supposed to treat each person as if they are Christ, but that does not mean that they can go do what ever they want and then recieve the Eucharist. It sounds like what your saying though is that we should allow everyone to send themsleves to Hell by sinning. As it says in Corinthians, you drink judgement upon yourself when you do not discern the body and blood of Christ. In other words you are sending yourself to Hell. Now the fact that we should treat all like Christ is no reason to allow them to sin and go against Gods will. You should always discourage people from sinning instead of encouraging it.
Jimmy, the church itself acknowledges that scripture can’t be taken literally. As to paul , read the analysis, he modified his writings to suit his audiences, so ipso facto, his writings are not absolutely true. We also know that he and the writers of acts were mistaken about the end of the world.

So when confronted with a situation where Jesus, through the gospels, and Paul are at odds, do I stick with what Paul says? That would be unChristian.

Paul writes some of the most beautiful things about Jesus’ teachings , but when He goes out on his own Paul writes with a spirit and attitude that is unChristlike.

As far as going with the old church fathers who say and eye for an eye is the same as turn the other cheek; and who say that treat the least like they might be Jesus is the same as withold Jesus from the least , just doesn’t make sense. And more importantly it denigrates Jesus’ message because we are allowed to use parts of the bible that we acknowledge as being “undeveloped” or conditionalized, to rationalize and water down the tight discipline of Jesus’ message. (BTW, I realize that makes me a heretic, but catholics can do, and have done, much worse than become heretics).

Peace
 
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jurist12:
For those who simply want to “parrot” Church Teaching on this issue without bothering to do some further reasearch on this issue here is some info. It seems that not only does the child suffer from Celiac disease but also has allergies to any fermented drink because of the yeast produced as a by product of fermentation. Even low alcohol wine would set off her allergies, even in very small quantities. The mother also stated that even if her daughter could drink wine she would not allow it, even low alcohol wine as she thinks it is inappropriate to allow even communion wine to be given to children. As a parent of an underage child that is her perogative. No doubt some will counter with "well she can still make a “Spiritual Communion”, if anyone says that then what is the point then of receiving the physical elements of Holy Communion? We can simply bypass it and all make a “Spiritual Communion” at Mass with only the Priest consuming the physical Eucharist. My hope is that in this case the Church will see the use of wheat flour to make Communion Bread as a cultural prejudice and human tradition and not a Divine Precept and allow Communion bread to made of plant or grain flour that people with Gluten/Wheat intolerance can consume in Holy Communion without ill-effect. In Christ, jurist12
“Parroting” the truth is no vice. Placing oneself above the truth is no virtue. The Church is custodian of the deposit of faith. In her mercy she allows mustum in certain cases to be used in place of wine. This option is open to this girl. Only the tiniest drop of either the Precious Blood or Holy Communion is needed. If the girl’s body is intolerent of the smallest fraction, of either species, which I doubt, the alternative is not to manufacture the truth, but accept Christ’s will as He asks of each of us.

The mother thinks even low alcohol wine is not appropriate. That is not the issue. The issue is she wants to force her will on the Church. She wants to place herself above the Church. Who does she think she is?
 
fix said:
“Parroting” the truth is no vice. Placing oneself above the truth is no virtue. The Church is custodian of the deposit of faith. In her mercy she allows mustum in certain cases to be used in place of wine. This option is open to this girl. Only the tiniest drop of either the Precious Blood or Holy Communion is needed. If the girl’s body is intolerent of the smallest fraction, of either species, which I doubt, the alternative is not to manufacture the truth, but accept Christ’s will as He asks of each of us.

The mother thinks even low alcohol wine is not appropriate. That is not the issue. The issue is she wants to force her will on the Church. She wants to place herself above the Church. Who does she think she is?

Do you think Jesus instituted the Eucharist as a ritual? That is the problem here, Jesus was very pragmatic, He was a man of action and results. He left the methods of actually achieving the results to us.

For the church to even conceive of these alternatives shows that they spend way too much time on the trivial and not enough on the real.

The deep point is not that the church won’t give her Jesus, it is that the church took Jesus away from her by declaring her first communion invalid. That is sick.

I’m positive that Jesus would find a person sharing a piece of fruit with a homeless person more evidence of Him being there than in the some hosts some people have received minutes before they cut off their neighbor in the church parking lot.

Peace
 
How did we handle this years ago? What is man’s culpability in these diseases and conditions? Does the Church have the authority to change Jesus’ example at the Last Supper when he said “Do this in memory of me”?
 
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