Circumcision

[YinYangMom]

bogeyjlg:

Yeah but you won’t remember the pain if you get it done as an infant.

Well that kinda goes along with ear piercings for girls then.
I know we did our daughters when she was an infant because she wouldn’t remember the pain (and it really is so brief). In the case of ear piercings we figured if she didn’t like it she could let them close up. But with circumcision, the boy doesn’t get the same option.

And yet, taking the position to let a daughter decide for herself whether or not she wants pierced ears is good too because she has to consent to enduring the pain if it really matters to her. The pain still is the same when you’re older as it is when you’re younger it’s just that you’ll be consciously aware of what’s going on at the time.

I imagine the pain for an adult male would be the same as it would for an infant male. And I know that in Turkey they don’t get circumcised until they’re 11 or 13…it’s a really big deal, like a jewish bat mitzvah…huge parties, lots of gifts, money.

I don’t think a parent can go wrong in deciding one way or the other these days on circumcision.

 

[DaveBj]

proudnifi:

No kids yet; my husband and I are not going to have any future sons circumcized. I’ve done research on it, too. The process bothers me greatly because it’s a permanent body modification not chosen by that person, potentially painful and an unnecessary surgery with unnecessary risks; my husband agrees. I am not ready to pass laws against it, but I would probably try to convince a brother or sister to not circumcize their children if they were exploring that option. I’m not too thrilled about little girls and pierced ears either. Good luck with your decision and congratulations on your son!

When all is said and done, I believe that the bolded comment above is the best take on the issue.

I had it done as an adult, and if it grew back, I’d have it done again, but the point is that it was my choice to have it done.

As far as circ’ing infants is concerned, there is evidence in favor, and there is evidence against, but the evidence in favor is not overwhelming, and the evidence against should cause one to stop and think.

DaveBj

 

[YinYangMom]

Jennifer J:

So it’s okay to do something painful to a baby, because they won’t remember it??? There goes the prolife argument that they feel pain so it abortion must be bad!!! Please, even with pain meds the site will be painful even for a baby! The baby comes back to you asleep because they withdrew from the pain (those without pain meds).

While I support any parent’s decision to circ, I don’t think it’s necessary either morally or physically. I would try to talk any parent out of it. I saw it done once and swore I would never do that to my son–and I didn’t.

I had an older lady chastize me because my ds wasn’t circ’d but then went on to tell me they botched her sons and they had to do it AGAIN. Thanks for the advice

Jennifer

What happened to the Catholic teaching on pain and suffering?

A brief spurt of pain for a medical procedure is not traumatic or immoral. Vaccinations are painful and psychologically traumatic for the little ones - any visit to a pediatrician’s office will attest to that. We know the prick of the needle is minimally painful but these kids freak out when they see a needle and make the situation worse than it really is.

Circumcision, ear piercings, vaccinations…with local anesthetics… is not a traumatic experience for an infant. It’s not even traumatic for an adult. But they are, for the most part, elective procedures so parents are free to choose one or the other options and yes, if some parents are of the philosophy all pain is bad and should be avoided, that’s a good reason not to elect these procedures for their kids. And if they use other grounds for determining whether or not to say yes or no, that’s good too.

It’s a personal decision a couple should make on behalf of their children and I honestly don’t believe there is a ‘wrong’ answer, especially if they come to the decision with the best interest of their children in mind.

 

[Prometheum_x]

Jennifer J:

There goes the prolife argument that they feel pain so it abortion must be bad!!!

The prolife argument isn’t directly “because they feel pain, abortion is bad.” Rather, it is, “because the feel pain, they have a somewhat autonomous nervous system, showing that they are an indepedent life, therefore abortion is bad.”

If it was the first way, it would be a very weak argument, for animals feel pain too when we kill them to eat them. And, in their own plant sort of way, while it may not be pain per se, plants have some sort of biochemical “awareness” that damage has been done to them.

Secondly, if they were to develop an abortive process that caused no pain (such as drugging them to induce unconsciousness), that argument against abortion would no longer have any weight.

 

[wabrams]

DaveBj:

When all is said and done, I believe that the bolded comment above is the best take on the issue.

I had it done as an adult, and if it grew back, I’d have it done again, but the point is that it was my choice to have it done.

As far as circ’ing infants is concerned, there is evidence in favor, and there is evidence against, but the evidence in favor is not overwhelming, and the evidence against should cause one to stop and think.

DaveBj

There’s equal weight on both sides.

I believe in circumcision. If anything, it’s a reminder of our Jewish heritage.

 

[Jennifer_J]

well, maybe the abortion arguement wasn’t the best, but I still feel it ties in, in some way. Dismissing a baby’s pain because a baby won’t remember–it’s like saying “it’s just a baby, it’s pain doesn’t matter”!!! A baby’s pain does matter–it’s a PERSON. While pain and suffering can be redemptive, how does that apply to a days old infant?? Can I “offer up” my baby’s pain?

Anyway, while I’m personally against it, obviously God wasn’t as he allowed Jesus to be circ’d. However, Jesus fulfilled the old law and circ’ing isn’t necessary for my son’s salvation!

Jennifer

 

[maryalene]

I have two boys - both are circumcised because DH wanted it. If it had been my choice, I would have left them intact. I haven’t read anything compelling about the benefits of circumcision and so it seems like an unecessary procedure. I asked my DH once how many kids in his class were circumcised. He said he didn’t know. I said ‘didn’t you guys take showers together for gym and football.’ He replied that ‘yeah, but you don’t stare at other guys’ penises and you sure as heck don’t say anything about it - everyone would think you were gay.’ So the conformity issue doesn’t seem that compelling either. But ultimately, DH wanted the boys circumcised and since it was important to him, I deferred to his judgement.

 

[MooCowSteph]

DJgang:

I have three boys…all circumcised.

Are you aware of a procedure that doesn’t involve just cutting away the skin at once and then having to worry about dressing it everyday until well?

All of my sons had what I believe you call a “plasty bell”. What it is…the doctor makes a few cuts down the foreskin, slides the bell on and basically the foreskin dies, the “bell” falls off…and there you go, a perfect little circumcision. NONE of my sons cried afterward! I’m sure that they cried when the local was given, but all three came back to me 30 minutes afterward asleep. They never cried when they urinated like some babies do with the other procedure.

This is very interesting. Should we have a son, I will look into this procedure for sure! Circumcision has not really been an issue for us. I knew before I even asked that my husband would want our sons circumcised, and if I was going to try to change his mind, I better feel pretty strongly and have some good arguments. Since my only issue with the procedure is the pain the infant feels, the procedure you outline above sounds great. I remember when I was 10 and my little brother was born. I cried when they took the dressing of the little guy’s penis and he screamed. It broke my heart to see this little baby only a day old in that kind of pain.

And as some others mentioned, vaccines are a much bigger issue for us. I am really agonizing for them.

 

[YinYangMom]

Prometheum_x:

The prolife argument isn’t directly “because they feel pain, abortion is bad.” Rather, it is, “because the feel pain, they have a somewhat autonomous nervous system, showing that they are an indepedent life, therefore abortion is bad.”

If it was the first way, it would be a very weak argument, for animals feel pain too when we kill them to eat them. And, in their own plant sort of way, while it may not be pain per se, plants have some sort of biochemical “awareness” that damage has been done to them.

Secondly, if they were to develop an abortive process that caused no pain (such as drugging them to induce unconsciousness), that argument against abortion would no longer have any weight.

Hmmm…very, very important distinctions. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[astegallrnc]

HPV is the clinical name for genital warts. It’s an STD that has multiple strains with multiple symptoms. It can only be diagnosed visually, and there is no cure. Last statistic I heard from friends in the medical field was something like 65-80% of all sexually active males between 18-30 have some form of it, whether they’re carriers or have/had a full blown outbreak.

HPV can CAUSE genital warts, flat warts, dysplasia, etc. “A definitive diagnosis of HPV infection is based on detection of viral nucleic acid (DNA or RNA) or capsid protein”. (cdc.gov/STD/treatment/6-2002TG.htm#SubclinicalGenitalHPVInfection). It is considered THE MAJOR cause of cervcial cancer.

cdc.gov/std/hpv/default.htm%between%

 

[wabrams]

astegallrnc:

HPV can CAUSE genital warts, flat warts, dysplasia, etc. “A definitive diagnosis of HPV infection is based on detection of viral nucleic acid (DNA or RNA) or capsid protein”. (cdc.gov/STD/treatment/6-2002TG.htm#SubclinicalGenitalHPVInfection). It is considered THE MAJOR cause of cervcial cancer.

cdc.gov/std/hpv/default.htm

Almost the same difference. If you have HPV, there’s a good chance you’ll get warts. If you don’t get warts, you will most likely pass it on.

You can detect it in women, but not in men unless they have a break-out.

 

[spacecadet]

another thought i had is that many people say they are doing it for theological or religious reasons but have it done in a nonreligious setting so that really isn’t the case

ITA about agonizing over the vaccines. like i said in my earlier post about all the different options if you do circ you likewise have different options for vaxing. we did the first two rounds without questions. DS was so out of it for 24 hourse each time. then we started splitting them up and do one (sometimes two) a month. i go in for a walk in shot (no copay) once a month. i still haven’t done the MMR because i want to order single doses but the doc won’t let me so i haven’t made a decision yet. (praying for guidance)

i think with all this stuff the worst thing a person can do is just blindly trust the system. research takes time but our kids our worth it.

 

[astegallrnc]

wabrams:

Almost the same difference. If you have HPV, there’s a good chance you’ll get warts. If you don’t get warts, you will most likely pass it on.

You can detect it in women, but not in men unless they have a break-out.

I was just clarifying how it is diagnosed and that HPV does not manifest only as genital warts. It can, but how it manifests depends on the strain of HPV. The strains that cause abnormal paps RARELY cause genital warts, and the strains that cause genital warts RARELY cause abnormal paps. I have seen many, many women with abnormal paps (positive for HPV) with no genital warts. The CDC states most people who have a genital HPV infection do not know they are infected. You can pass HPV whether or not you have visible warts.

It is true that men do not know they are infected with HPV unless they have genital warts or a partner with confirmed HPV. Most women are diagnosed with HPV on the basis of abnormal pap (cdc.gov).

 

[astegallrnc]

We had our son circumcised. I consented even after seeing many babes circumscised while a nurse in the newborn nursery. We chose to do this because 1) my DH is 2) I’ve just seen just enough men have it done later in life to know it is easier on infants 3) there are enough medical reasons to encourage me to do so even though the AAP does not recommend routine circumcison. It is a personal decision. Pray!

Autumn

 

[astegallrnc]

HPV is the clinical name for genital warts

Oh, Condyloma Acuminata is the clinical name for gential warts caused by HPV. I took DayQuill and can’t think straight. Anyway, there is so much confusion regarding this stuff that I hope to clarify when I can.

Autumn

 

[jess7396]

We circumcised our first son and I really regret that “choice”. Our second son (and any future sons will be) was left intact.

There are so many reasons that I feel that routine infant circumcision is not a good thing to do.

First- I do not for one minute belive that God made all baby boys in need of immediate surgical correction.

Second- the circumcision Jesus would’ve had is VERY different from the almost complete removal of the foreskin which happens to most boys in the US today.(so there went the “it was good enough for Jesus” argument)

Third- I believe the foreskin serves purposes to the man and woman (later on ), it is not some “disposable” part.

Fourth- I believe that sugeries should be performed when a problem develops, not as a routine medical choice.

Fifth- I believe it is disrespectful to the child’s choice in the matter, an intact man can choose to be circumcised later on, a man who has been circ.ed as an infant is given no choice.

Sixth- there is much evidence as to the pain a child endures and the effect that can have on the breastfeeding relationship.

Seventh- any surgery opens the child up to the risk of infection and the possiblity of something going horribly wrong, usually for the sake of cosmetics (to look like dad, to not be teased, etc)

Oh, I know I have more reasons, but I am tired. I think it is so great that you are doing this research before making this decision, I did lots of researching too before my second son’s birth, and then I smaked myself in the head with point one from above, God doesn’t make baby boys wrong. If there is ever a problem which required my son to be circumcised, I would surely do it, but I won’t have preventative/cosmetic surgery done on any other boys I am blessed with.

 

[maryceleste]

proudnifi:

The process bothers me greatly because it’s a permanent body modification not chosen by that person

I think this is a red herring. Parents make a lot of irrevocable decisions for their children. For example, vaccination is a permanent immune system modification not chosen by that person, and baptism is a permanent soul modification not chosen by that person . The real question is, do the benefits of circumcision outweigh the risks?

We thought long and hard about this, and decided that, for our family, the answer is “yes.” We did give some weight to social reasons, but our main interest was in the established medical benefits. Some of these benefits only apply during childhood (e.g. decreased risk of UTI’s, which can lead to kidney scarring), so we didn’t see the point in waiting and letting him decide when he’s older.

Here are some sites we found very helpful. (We did read a lot of the above-mentioned “anti-circumcision” materials as well; we just didn’t find them particularly convincing.)

circinfo.net/
medicirc.org/
geocities.com/HotSprings/2754/
(you might want to skip the “Testimonials” sections on the latter two sites… kind of a TMI situation! )

We ended up having our baby circumcised at the pediatrician’s office when he was 10 days old. It went fine, but, if we’re blessed with another boy, I think we’ll just get it done at the hospital. In hindsight, there are a lot of risks and hassles involved with taking a brand-new baby to the doctor’s office. Not to mention the pain factor. He really seemed okay after it was all finished… until we fastened the car seat buckle! Ouch!

 

[jess7396]

maryceleste:

I think this is a red herring. Parents make a lot of irrevocable decisions for their children. For example, vaccination is a permanent immune system modification not chosen by that person, and baptism is a permanent soul modification not chosen by that person .

I don’t think it is a red herring argument at all. It is inherantly different than your other examples in that it removes a functioning part of the body, vaccination and baptism do not do that. It is also different in that routine infant circumcision assumes that God made little boys with a part that requires immediate surgical correction and that He made a part that is not needed. If the mother nurses the child exclusively, the risk of UTIs is greatly diminished and is far less than the risk of an infant daughter getting a UTI. I think if we follow God’s plan, and breastfeed and leave our baby boys as He made them, they will be healthy. Posters in areas other than the US are fully aware that circumcision is not needed for health reasons, we are the only country (that I know of) holding onto that one, and I venture to guess that the medical reasons are really reaching -to excuse the cosmetic reasons (not by individuals, but by society at large- certainly some individuals believe there is medical reasoning).

I have never met anyone (including myself, remember I did this to my first) who was solely doing it for “medical reasons” the cosmetic reasons always seem to be there.

Oh and a note on the cosmetic reasons, the tide is turning, to where, in my area, the rate is around 45% left intact, and 55% circumcised.

 

[MooCowSteph]

jess7396:

We circumcised our first son and I really regret that “choice”. Our second son (and any future sons will be) was left intact.

There are so many reasons that I feel that routine infant circumcision is not a good thing to do.

First- I do not for one minute belive that God made all baby boys in need of immediate surgical correction.

Second- the circumcision Jesus would’ve had is VERY different from the almost complete removal of the foreskin which happens to most boys in the US today.(so there went the “it was good enough for Jesus” argument)

Third- I believe the foreskin serves purposes to the man and woman (later on ), it is not some “disposable” part.

Fourth- I believe that sugeries should be performed when a problem develops, not as a routine medical choice.

Fifth- I believe it is disrespectful to the child’s choice in the matter, an intact man can choose to be circumcised later on, a man who has been circ.ed as an infant is given no choice.

Sixth- there is much evidence as to the pain a child endures and the effect that can have on the breastfeeding relationship.

Seventh- any surgery opens the child up to the risk of infection and the possiblity of something going horribly wrong, usually for the sake of cosmetics (to look like dad, to not be teased, etc)

Oh, I know I have more reasons, but I am tired. I think it is so great that you are doing this research before making this decision, I did lots of researching too before my second son’s birth, and then I smaked myself in the head with point one from above, God doesn’t make baby boys wrong. If there is ever a problem which required my son to be circumcised, I would surely do it, but I won’t have preventative/cosmetic surgery done on any other boys I am blessed with.

What would the circumcision have been like in Jesus’ day?

What were the events, if you don’t mind sharing, that let to you greatly regretting your son’s circumcision? You list good reasons against routine circumcision, but what actually made you regret your choice for your son?

 

[carol_marie]

Jess,
You make some very good arguments… and I will admit that our decision was mainly that of cosmetics. I have seen friend’s sons who weren’t circumcised and I thought it looked icky.

Sorry.I’m being honest here and that’s the way I felt. Plus I wanted my sons to look like their Dad.

I’m wondering what it will be like if you have another boy and he looks different from his Dad & his brother? Do you think he’ll care? I’m not judging you - nor do I think it’s my business - nor do I particulary care… I’m just curious, that’s all.

CM