Circumcision

[Golf_Nut]

THere is a risk of complications during a circumcision. In my hospital most physicians refuse to conduct the procedure due to complications. There have been a couple of horrible cases where the penis bled excessively resulting in its amputation and devastating consequences for the child, who was no longer male nor female in a physical sense.

Literature indicates that the serious complications arising out of this procedure are undereported.

You are taking a risk of having your child undergo this surgical procedure. At the very least, if you insist in inflicting this on your child, you better find a surgeon who has done it many times in the past.

As the Catholic church does not insist or even recommend this procedure, I fail to see why you would put your child at risk. And do not fool yourself, he will be in a great deal of pain for a couple of days following it. And for what? So that he looks like dad? Do we really want to visit the mistakes and risks of the past on our children?

In Judaism, it is a requirement but not in Christianity. If you want to do this, ask your doctor: is this medically necessary?

As for the issue of hygiene, cleaning the penis is no different than brushing your teeth.

Ask yourself, why do i want to do this? to make my husband happy?

 

[wabrams]

Golf_Nut:

As for the issue of hygiene, cleaning the penis is no different than brushing your teeth.

If that’s the case, there are alot of people out there with filthy penis’, because a good portion of the US can’t even brush their teeth properly.

 

[Princess_Abby]

wabrams:

If that’s the case, there are alot of people out there with filthy penis’, because a good portion of the US can’t even brush their teeth properly.

ha! true!

 

[mr_trident]

a recent statistic I heard was that only 2/10 men wash their hands after using the bathroom as compared to 8/10 women wash their hands.
It also seems to me that if God ordained circumcision in the OT, then its ok. God would not do anything that would be detrimental to His people.
Virtually every man I know is cicumcised and more than thankful that is !!

And my last point is simply …why are the moms even making this decision…?? My son was circumcised because I made the decision… does my wife have a penis … no … she doesn’t…so how would she know anything about penises ?? It’s a man’s issue, and a father’s decision for his son.

 

[Golf_Nut]

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut, but respectfully I must disagree.

I am a circumcised man and I cannot say that most men I know are so. It used to be the case but not so anymore. I live in Canada where there have been some documented tragedies where a child’s penis would not stop bleeding and as a result it had to be amputated a week or so later. Needless to say he grew up being not a man nor a woman in the gentalia sense. Other complications have been nerve damage (i.e. lack of feeling).

Initially i thought my male children should be circumcised also but it is not medically necessary and places them at some risk.

The Old Testament is full of all sorts of instructions that Catholic Church does not require us to follow. THis is one of them.

As for your wife, I think you have an incredibly sexist attitude. It is her child also. And she should have say in the matter.

The bottom line is this is a procedure that will result in pain, risk of complications for your child all so that you can satisfy some primitive feeling that your boy is like you.

What if you were born not circumcised? Then you would be opposed to the procedure. Try to step out of your subjectivity and think in terms of what is best for your child and not your ego.

 

[Golf_Nut]

I am not aware of any Catholic authority requiring such a procedure.

Judaism does require this rite as it is a mark of Abraham’s descendants.

 

[jess7396]

mr trident:

a recent statistic I heard was that only 2/10 men wash their hands after using the bathroom as compared to 8/10 women wash their hands.
It also seems to me that if God ordained circumcision in the OT, then its ok. God would not do anything that would be detrimental to His people.
Virtually every man I know is cicumcised and more than thankful that is !!

And my last point is simply …why are the moms even making this decision…?? My son was circumcised because I made the decision… does my wife have a penis … no … she doesn’t…so how would she know anything about penises ?? It’s a man’s issue, and a father’s decision for his son.

First, the teeth brushing analogy is not a great one (though I appreciate the sentiment ). It is actually more like cleaning the vulva is, you DON"T soap it, you simply rinse, so unless your son doesn’t shower at all, it will be all good. I simply would not remove any other functioning part of my son’s body b/c I buy into the belief that men are not capable of keeping themselves clean, and therefore we must save them from themselves by cutting off a functioning body part right after birth. “Welcome to the world little one, I have decided that you will be too careless to take proper care to clean yourself, so I removed a part of your body” You’ll thank me for this!

Secondly, your point about men making this decision for their boys is so insulting I cannot even begin to imagine a marriage that works that way. I am sorry but just because I do not have a penis does not mean that my husband should be the only one who gets an opinion on unnecessary surgery on our newborn sons.

I tend to think that the main reason most men (who aren’t thinking of the outdated medical reasoning) want their boys circumcised, is because they refuse to believe that they themselves could be missing something sexually. We all need to acknowledge that circumcision is the removal of a functioning body part, it is not ear piercing people, the foreskin serves a purpose sexually, would you like a link on the function of the foreskin?

I already addressed the fact that the circumcision of long ago is not the circumcision of today, so I just can’t see the “God ordered it” argument when we are not talking about the same things here.

As to the PP who mentioned being convinced to do it b/c of old men in hospitals in nursing homes having problems, that was my main reason when we did it to our first son. That was before I learned that the foreskin serves a purpose and therefore, should be left alone and functioning until it becomes a problem. Is there any part of your daughter’s genitalia that you would consider removing, even knowing that it will serve a purpose sexually when she gets married, just because of the chance that she might have problems with it when she is 80? Isn’t that the extreme of “preventative medicine”?

I know we have (b/c I once thought this way) this idea in our heads that grown men would be traumatized by a circumcision done later in life (in the EXTREMELY rare case that it would be needed), but- first there is that consideration that the need for circ. later in life is extremely rare, and also the fact that a grown man being circumcised would absolutely be given proper pain relief and would have a body well enough to make the risks of complication from infection very small. Why oh why do we assume that a grown man could not handle it (or an older boy should complications arise) but a baby (since they can’t talk, I imagine) is all good with their foreskin being ripped from the penis? I would hope that a well adjusted man could handle this a lot better than a newborn baby.

I know b/c I have been the mom who went through with this, but I really encourage others to ask yourself if your reasons for this procedure being done to your son are truly sound. The guilt of doing something like this for vanity, or for “preventative medicine” (when the actual risks are so minimal) is great, trust me. Is the off chance that it might need to be done later (when the boy/man is older and able to have a say, and able to have proper pain relief, etc.) or the fact that he might be “different” really a reason to cut off a functioning part of our son’s penis at birth?

 

[jrabs]

Golf_Nut:

As for your wife, I think you have an incredibly sexist attitude. It is her child also. And she should have say in the matter.

A bit uncharitable here…

I am a female and would have to say that I tend to agree more with Mr. Trident’s position. I did not sense any ego in this post.
Just that he has more experience with that part of his anatomy than I would as a female.

 

[jess7396]

Golf_Nut:

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut, but respectfully I must disagree.

I am a circumcised man and I cannot say that most men I know are so. It used to be the case but not so anymore. I live in Canada where there have been some documented tragedies where a child’s penis would not stop bleeding and as a result it had to be amputated a week or so later. Needless to say he grew up being not a man nor a woman in the gentalia sense. Other complications have been nerve damage (i.e. lack of feeling).

Initially i thought my male children should be circumcised also but it is not medically necessary and places them at some risk.

The Old Testament is full of all sorts of instructions that Catholic Church does not require us to follow. THis is one of them.

As for your wife, I think you have an incredibly sexist attitude. It is her child also. And she should have say in the matter.

The bottom line is this is a procedure that will result in pain, risk of complications for your child all so that you can satisfy some primitive feeling that your boy is like you.

What if you were born not circumcised? Then you would be opposed to the procedure. Try to step out of your subjectivity and think in terms of what is best for your child and not your ego.

VERY well said:thumbsup:

 

[jrabs]

jess7396:

VERY well said:thumbsup:

Odd - I thought it to be uncharitable.

 

[Golf_Nut]

jrabs:

A bit uncharitable here…

I am a female and would have to say that I tend to agree more with Mr. Trident’s position. I did not sense any ego in this post.
Just that he has more experience with that part of his anatomy than I would as a female.

Jrabs, just because you are a woman does not mean that you cannot make an informed, intelligent decision concerning your son. After all, what do men know about child birth, to follow your logic, all physicians delivering babies should be women.

 

[mr_trident]

thats not the point… the point is that if God ordained it and in fact REQUIRED it , then its perfectly fine for boys…there are no ill effects… non whatsoever.

and if there are a couple of cases that were not successful …so what ?? There are also a few plane crashes now and then too … but there are 1000’s of planes flying successfully every day just as there are literally 1000’s of cicumcisions done every day all over the world… successfully.

 

[jess7396]

One more time, the circumcision of today is not the circumcision that God required, 2 very different things medically, and the circ. of today has no spiritual reasoning (except for Jews).

Also, on the “men should make the decisions b/c they have the penises” does the same go for nursing? I know many women whose husbands encouraged them to nurse their babies, the men had well thought positions on the subject, did they have no right to them b/c they have no breasts?

 

[Golf_Nut]

I think you better read the OD closely and see if God required it. I believe it was a one time personal sacrifice made by Abraham to God instead of an animal sacrifice. I think God commanded him to circumcise his son. It was a one time requirement. However, orthodox Jews have followed this tradition. The reasons are to show that they descended from Abraham. I may be wrong on this though.

THe bottom line is that there is no Catholic authority for this being required, yet you still insist on this.

The question becomes why? Rabbis insist on this for their people but priests certainly do not.

In any case, I know that there is no changing your mind, but I hope that others reading these posts will try to examine why they would want to do this to their own infant.

 

[jrabs]

Golf_Nut:

Jrabs, just because you are a woman does not mean that you cannot make an informed, intelligent decision concerning your son. After all, what do men know about child birth, to follow your logic, all physicians delivering babies should be women.

Who says I was not informed about my decision? But I also highly regard the opinions of men (my husband for example) who lives daily with a body part of which I have little experience.

I’ve never been a 14 yr old boy in a locker room.

You say “The bottom line is this is a procedure that will result in pain, risk of complications for your child all so that you can satisfy some primitive feeling that your boy is like you.”

You know, there can be adverse reactions to almost anything: the first time your child eats peanut butter…gets a bee sting. These actions can bring sudden death. Going to the dentist carries with it possible pain and risk. I don’t buy that as a reason for one to shy away from circumcision.

 

[jess7396]

jrabs:

I don’t buy that as a reason for one to shy away from circumcision.

I guess that it seems simple to me that since routine infant circumcision is a surgical procedure performed on a perfectly healthy baby boy, and the removal of a functioning body part put there by God Himself, the proof of necessity (and I mean medical necessity, as anything else is simple vanity) is on those who want to do it, the evidence of medical necessity is so far from compelling that not one major medical organization recommends routine infant circumcision. So, since NO major medical organizations can recommend it, how sound can the medical reasoning really be?

Again, anything other than medical reasoning is simple vanity (a sin) imposed on an unwilling person.

 

[Golf_Nut]

jess7396:

I guess that it seems simple to me that since routine infant circumcision is a surgical procedure performed on a perfectly healthy baby boy, and the removal of a functioning body part put there by God Himself, the proof of necessity (and I mean medical necessity, as anything else is simple vanity) is on those who want to do it, the evidence of medical necessity is so far from compelling that not one major medical organization recommends routine infant circumcision. So, since NO major medical organizations can recommend it, how sound can the medical reasoning really be?

Again, anything other than medical reasoning is simple vanity (a sin) imposed on an unwilling person.

I agree. Moreover, somewhere in the Bible it is stated, or at least it is implied, that vanity is a sin.

 

[jrabs]

jess7396:

Again, anything other than medical reasoning is simple vanity (a sin) imposed on an unwilling person.

Uhhh, OK. So let me be clear about what you are saying…I have sinned because I 've had my boys circumcised? And anyone who does is sinning? :whacky:

Let’s just agree to disagree and not bother to call us sinners.

 

[jess7396]

jrabs:

Uhhh, OK. So let me be clear about what you are saying…I have sinned becasue I 've had my boys circumcised? Any anyone who does is sinning? :whacky:

If they are doing it for vanity and are aware that there is no solid medical reasoning to do it, yes, that would be a sin, IMO, is that so hard to believe?

 

[mr_trident]

the bottom line is simply …God said it was ok and I believe its ok. The church has no position because its not a spiritual issue. It comes down to common sense on the part of the parents… and I think its ultimately up to the father to make the final decision. And when it comes to nursing, my wife may consider my (name removed by moderator)ut, but its her decision. My son was cicumcised, my son and daughter were both breast fed, and today they are both healthy, doing exceptional well in college and have great futures ahead of them … God willing.