Commandments

[BTTG]

Re: Sabbath in the New Testament

(Act 13:42) And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. (Act 13:43) Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. (Act 13:44) And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Paul when asked by the Gentiles the next Sabbath day, Paul could have, if the sabbath was no longer to be observed, said to the Gentiles, that the Sabbath day is longer observed, we must gather for worship/preach on the first day of the week. If the commandment under the new covenant was to observe the “Lord’s Day” why did Paul break the commandment and worship/preach on the Sabbath?
Then the next Sabbath day almost the whole city came on the Sabbath. Paul was very well known at this time. Paul could have preached on any day and people would have come to listen to him. Paul at this time should have said, ( if it were true) the new covenant states we are to preach the word of God on Sunday.

Now when Paul went to Thessalonica it was his custom to preach God’s word on the Sabbath.

(Act 17:2) And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Again, if the day of worship was Sunday under the new covenant, Paul should have stated that we are to come together on Sunday.

Then even later in his journey, Paul still preaches on the Sabbath. This time not only to Jews, but to the Gentiles as well.

(Act 18:4) And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Jesus knew that the Sabbath day was still going to be observed 30 years after his death or He wouldn’t have said…(Mat 24:20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

If the Sabbath day was not to be observed why would Jesus care to mention the sabbath day?

With all do respect, I understand that the Catholic Church has high regards for Mary, Jesus’ mother. I am sure that Mary and Jesus talked alot. I am sure that Mary probably knew Jesus better then anyone else. If the Sabbath was not to be observed after Jesus’ crucifixion, I am sure Mary would be aware of that, as it was one of the 10 commandments. The new covenant was in effect the moment Jesus died. Why then did Mary continue to observe the commandment of the sabbath after Jesus’ death? As we read in the following verse…(Luk 23:56) And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Furthermore to this verse, which Luke wrote about 30 years after the death of Christ, the Sabbath commandment was still observed by Luke. Notice the words " rested on the sabbath day according to the commandment." It is believed that the book of Luke was written in the early 60’s. Therefore, Luke did not say they rested on the commandment that “was”, which would indicate that the sabbath is no longer observed. If the sabbath was no longer observed at the time of Luke’s writtings in the early 60’s, Luke would have written the verse as … rested on the sabbath that was according to the commandment.
Luke’s statement is that they rested on the sabbath day according to the commandment ( that still is being observed during Luke’s time).

 

[BTTG]

**You stated **

Not at all - this was yet another instance of Israel breaking God’s law (he had just previously instructed them not to gather manna on the sabbath, and they had violated it - this becomes a theme as Israel continues to break God’s laws leading up to the golden calf (and thereafter).

**I responded ** In the above what is your understanding of " God’s law"?

Are we in agreement that the Sabbath commandment by God was in existence before Mt. Siani?

**You stated **

You haven’t answered my prior question - which is a critical question - of you - why do you suggest “law” means the Decalogue and only the Decalogue when Abraham is said to have followed God’s laws (your point being this means Abraham observed the Sabbath before Sinai) even though law in many (most) places ultimatley includes the entire mosaic law? Abraham can’t have followed the mosaic law (the levitical priesthood didn’t even exist yet. That kind of deflates your point - right? Is that why you didn’t reply and asked a different question?

**I responded ** Many people believe that the 10 commandments and the 613 commandments are “one " law of the Torah. The bible explains that there are 2 separate laws written within the Torah. The word “law” is used as " 10 commandments” and yes the “law” can also be the 613 other commands, depending on the context that it is used.

Now let’s be fair, you did not answer my question. In Gen. 26:5, what are “My commandments” and what are " My Laws"? Also I search the scriptures for " Moral" and did not find any reference. If we are to understand the Moral laws of God , were does the scripture reveal such?

**You stated **

I actually answered this one earlier, but I’ll try again - the “law” written in our hearts per jer 31:31-34 is the moral law of Christ written into our hearts after pentacost when the Holy Spirit fell upon the apostles and for all believes when it falls upon them. That “law” does not, for example, include the 613 commandments of the Torah (though that formed the mosaic law) - unless you are wearing tefillan and keeping kosher and not mixing wool and polyester, I imagine you agree with that.

**I responded ** What “law” is Jesus talking about in this verse?..(Mat 5:18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

written with love

 

[adrift]

Ok let us use (Rom 3:20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

What “law” is mentioned in the above text?

Do you put the Catholic church and their doctrines above the authority of the bible?

I want to thank you for your thoughtful replies. I don’t have time to ponder them for awhile. I am not sure when I will be able to be here. I have enjoyed discussing this with you. I do have a thought before I go. I am going to assume that you believe that one has to have knowledge of the Commandments in order for them to sin. Through out history there are those who were not exposed to them. The American Indians, the natives of Australia and others. They then could not sin is that right? Yet Paul says all have sinned. How could that be if they didn’t know the Law?

As I have said, I will be away from the INTERNET for a long while. Take care and My God Bless You.

 

[diggerdomer]

Why would the Catholic Catechism, in making reference to Sunday worship, state that
" we gather on the day of the sun" ?

Thank you

Because Sunday is the “day of the Sun”

 

[diggerdomer]

I am still curious to know what Commandment Adam broke.

Gen 3:11

 

[diggerdomer]

However, we read the story of the manna and that the Sabbath day was obeyed before Moses received the 10 commandments. We also read in Gen. that God forbid murder and adultery.

Can you please give Scripture references? Thanks.

 

[diggerdomer]

I am doing some research on the early church fathers and it is starting to read like the early church fathers did not start using the term " Lord’s day" , until the 3 rd or 4th century???

No, it was used much earlier.

 

[Robbinson]

Craig - thanks for the thoughtful replies - see below for my responses.

You Stated: Not at all - this was yet another instance of Israel breaking God’s law (he had just previously instructed them not to gather manna on the sabbath, and they had violated it - this becomes a theme as Israel continues to break God’s laws leading up to the golden calf (and thereafter).

**I responded ** In the above what is your understanding of " God’s law"?

Are we in agreement that the Sabbath commandment by God was in existence before Mt. Sinai?

No we are not in agreement. My understanding of God’s law depends on upon the context. Before Sinai, there was, I believe, a moral law (natural law) written into our consciences (the Gentiles still had that as referred to in the epistles - not the mosaic law, but a moral law knowing right from wrong). For Abraham, there were also express commandments by God (leave you own people and venture to a new land, circumcise your son, trust in God you would be a people of many nations, offer your son as a sacrifice). In the dessert, God commanded Israel not to collect manna on the seventh day (a foreshadowing of the Sabbath - but the full Sabbath rest commandment was yet to come). At Sinai, Israel was given the Decalogue and the balance of the 613 commandments followed shortly thereafter (mosaic law). Christ fulfilled the mosaic law and God’s law written in our hearts is, I believe, the Decalogue, except the Sabbath is fulfilled in our rest in Christ on the Sabbath day and every day (Hebrews).

**I responded ** Many people believe that the 10 commandments and the 613 commandments are “one " law of the Torah. The bible explains that there are 2 separate laws written within the Torah. The word “law” is used as " 10 commandments” and yes the “law” can also be the 613 other commands, depending on the context that it is used.

This is precisely my point - you can’t look at the word “law” in Gen 26:5 and say it "must"include the Sabbath (a commandment not given until Sinai) any more than you could say it included the balance of the 613 laws of the Torah (also part of the mosaic law not yet established 2/3 of which related to a Temple not yet built).

Now let’s be fair, you did not answer my question. In Gen. 26:5, what are “My commandments” and what are " My Laws"?

Actually, i have answered that a couple of times in this thread - but the answer is repeated again above for your reference.

Also I search the scriptures for " Moral" and did not find any reference. If we are to understand the Moral laws of God , were does the scripture reveal such?

Just as the word 'Trinity" is not included in scripture, yet its doctrine is revealed in principle through scripture, so it is with the “moral” or “natural” law. See Rom 2:14-16 where the Gentiles, who don’t have the “law” (law of moses) have a natural law written in their hearts.

"When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."

**I responded ** What “law” is Jesus talking about in this verse?..(Mat 5:18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

There, from the context, it is clearly the law of moses - and that law, then in effect, continued until “all was fulfilled” (and Jesus sacrificial crucification indeed “fulfilled” his dying for ours in which, through his death, we all “died to the law” and thus, by its terms, were “released from the law” - it being fulfilled.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[BTTG]

Because Sunday is the “day of the Sun”

where did the word Sunday originate?

 

[Robbinson]

where did the word Sunday originate?

Craig, what difference does it make? In Latin, “Sunday” is day of the sun. In Russian it is resurrection. It doesn’t matter what it is called, what matters is that since apostolic times, believers gathered on “the first day of the week” (now called “Sunday”) to worship and fellowship.

Gideon built an altar to God on top of an altar to Baal - converting a pagan place to the glory of God. God took the “calfs” that were worshiped by the Egyptians and turned them into “sacrifices” for him. So God took the “day of the sun” which had pagen associations and turned it into a day of “sacrifice” (the Eucharist) to him.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[BTTG]

I want to thank you for your thoughtful replies. I don’t have time to ponder them for awhile. I am not sure when I will be able to be here. I have enjoyed discussing this with you. I do have a thought before I go. I am going to assume that you believe that one has to have knowledge of the Commandments in order for them to sin. Through out history there are those who were not exposed to them. The American Indians, the natives of Australia and others. They then could not sin is that right? Yet Paul says all have sinned. How could that be if they didn’t know the Law?

As I have said, I will be away from the INTERNET for a long while. Take care and My God Bless You.

hey, sorry to see you will be leaving the site. Thank you too, for the discussions. you demonstrate the love of God with your pleasant responses. May the Holy Spirit guide you in your ways. Until we talk again. May the word of God be a lamp to your feet and a light to your path.

 

[BTTG]

Craig, what difference does it make? In Latin, “Sunday” is day of the sun. In Russian it is resurrection. It doesn’t matter what it is called, what matters is that since apostolic times, believers gathered on “the first day of the week” (now called “Sunday”) to worship and fellowship.

Gideon built an altar to God on top of an altar to Baal - converting a pagan place to the glory of God. God took the “calfs” that were worshiped by the Egyptians and turned them into “sacrifices” for him. So God took the “day of the sun” which had pagen associations and turned it into a day of “sacrifice” (the Eucharist) to him.

Blessings,

Brian

Ok , I can’t respond to that thought ???

 

[Robbinson]

Ok , I can’t respond to that thought ???

Hi Craig - I"m not sure what you mean, but absolutely you can reply to that thought. I enjoy hearing your perspective and I’m happy to learn from it or at least understand it better.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[BTTG]

**You stated **
I responded What “law” is Jesus talking about in this verse?..(Mat 5:18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
There, from the context, it is clearly the law of moses - and that law, then in effect, continued until “all was fulfilled” (and Jesus sacrificial crucification indeed “fulfilled” his dying for ours in which, through his death, we all “died to the law” and thus, by its terms, were “released from the law” - it being fulfilled.

**My reply ** Heaven and earth has not passed away yet. (Rev 21:1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.) I believe all has not been fulfilled . If we all “died to the law”, and released from the law , then none of the 10 commandments need to be observed.

The words" died to the law" and “released from the law” I believe is that the law cannot save us of our sins, like the Jews thought that the law could. The Jews thought they were saved by the works of the law. We are not to use the law as a means of salvation. We obey the 10 commandments because we are saved and we love God.

I might be a little slow on your answer to my question re: Gen 26. Please fill in the blanks

My commandments=

My Laws=

my statutes=

Thank you

 

[Robbinson]

I responded What “law” is Jesus talking about in this verse?..(Mat 5:18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
There, from the context, it is clearly the law of moses - and that law, then in effect, continued until “all was fulfilled” (and Jesus sacrificial crucification indeed “fulfilled” his dying for ours in which, through his death, we all “died to the law” and thus, by its terms, were “released from the law” - it being fulfilled.

First, if I accepted your reading as articulated here, then the entire mosaic law would still be applicable and binding upon all believers as the mosaic law is not “divided” into the Decalogue and the remainder of the 613 commandments and if one breaches any part of the law, he/she breaches all of it. This was expressly rejected in Galatians and Hebrews we we were expressly told we are no longer “under the law” we have “died to the law” and the “law has been fulfilled” and is now “obsolete”.

In terms of how I read Matt 5:17 - I believe it has two complimentary readings. First, “until all is fulfilled” modifies “until heaven and earth passes away” - its like saying, "my law will continue “forever” . . “UNTIL” all is fulfilled. So, the law was “fulfilled” on the cross. I believe this is the primary meaning.

Second - there is another secondary meaning, I believe, which is that “world” to Judaism was symbolized by the Temple - Jesus was predicting and alluding to the ultimate destruction of the “world” with the destruction of the temple in 70AD when the old Jerusalem and Temple would be destroyed and it would be impossible to follow most of the mosaic law. This might explain why many of the apostles continued to observe the mosaic law until the destruction of the temple, but history shows us this ceased following the temple’s destruction. BTW, on a related point, when one reads the book of Revelation, I see a fulfillment of this secondary understanding since I believe that book speaks, in large part to the prophecy of the coming destruction of the second temple (while also holding prophecies relating to the ultimate end of our world).

.

I might be a little slow on your answer to my question re: Gen 26. Please fill in the blanks

My commandments=

My Laws=

my statutes=

Perhaps I don’t read this as forensically as you do as I believe this is telling us that Abraham just did all that God asked of him, but if one wanted to distinguish between commandments, laws and statutes, I’d say that the “commandments” (some translate this as following My (God’s) voice), refers to behaviors like leaving his land, and offering his son (an express commandment/voice); and other activities such as circumcision have a “statutory” or “legal” connotation as they represent a binding statute/law that would continue in perpetuity (or until the new covenant). In that way, they would resonate in the future with Israel when given additional laws to imitate Abraham in following God’s law whatever it is.

I think this is the proper understanding Craig, because, once again, if you want to read back into “statutes and laws” the mosaic statues and laws that didn’t exist before Sinai, you would have to believe that Abraham followed the Leviticus priesthood laws, dietary laws, laws of sacrifice and purification, etc. You, however, appear to want to import some (the Decalogue) but not all (the balance of the 613 Leviticus/mosaic) of the Sinai commandments to Abraham’s day. That just doesn’t make sense (does it? - if so, how?).

Blessings,

Brian

 

[BTTG]

First, if I accepted your reading as articulated here, then the entire mosaic law would still be applicable and binding upon all believers as the mosaic law is not “divided” into the Decalogue and the remainder of the 613 commandments and if one breaches any part of the law, he/she breaches all of it. This was expressly rejected in Galatians and Hebrews we we were expressly told we are no longer “under the law” we have “died to the law” and the “law has been fulfilled” and is now “obsolete”.

In terms of how I read Matt 5:17 - I believe it has two complimentary readings. First, “until all is fulfilled” modifies “until heaven and earth passes away” - its like saying, "my law will continue “forever” . . “UNTIL” all is fulfilled. So, the law was “fulfilled” on the cross. I believe this is the primary meaning.

Second - there is another secondary meaning, I believe, which is that “world” to Judaism was symbolized by the Temple - Jesus was predicting and alluding to the ultimate destruction of the “world” with the destruction of the temple in 70AD when the old Jerusalem and Temple would be destroyed and it would be impossible to follow most of the mosaic law. This might explain why many of the apostles continued to observe the mosaic law until the destruction of the temple, but history shows us this ceased following the temple’s destruction. BTW, on a related point, when one reads the book of Revelation, I see a fulfillment of this secondary understanding since I believe that book speaks, in large part to the prophecy of the coming destruction of the second temple (while also holding prophecies relating to the ultimate end of our world).

Perhaps I don’t read this as forensically as you do as I believe this is telling us that Abraham just did all that God asked of him, but if one wanted to distinguish between commandments, laws and statutes, I’d say that the “commandments” (some translate this as following My (God’s) voice), refers to behaviors like leaving his land, and offering his son (an express commandment/voice); and other activities such as circumcision have a “statutory” or “legal” connotation as they represent a binding statute/law that would continue in perpetuity (or until the new covenant). In that way, they would resonate in the future with Israel when given additional laws to imitate Abraham in following God’s law whatever it is.

I think this is the proper understanding Craig, because, once again, if you want to read back into “statutes and laws” the mosaic statues and laws that didn’t exist before Sinai, you would have to believe that Abraham followed the Leviticus priesthood laws, dietary laws, laws of sacrifice and purification, etc. You, however, appear to want to import some (the Decalogue) but not all (the balance of the 613 Leviticus/mosaic) of the Sinai commandments to Abraham’s day. That just doesn’t make sense (does it? - if so, how?).

Blessings,

Brian

Thanks Brian for your responses.
Let’s try this from a different angle. If Christ is the “end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone that believes”, to mean that God’s law given to Moses is terminated or fulfilled , then does that mean that before Christ came into the world that the only way to achieve righteousness was by obeying the law?

 

[CrimsonCatholic]

Thanks Brian for your responses.
Let’s try this from a different angle. If Christ is the “end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone that believes”, to mean that God’s law given to Moses is terminated or fulfilled , then does that mean that before Christ came into the world that the only way to achieve righteousness was by obeying the law?

Matthew 5:17

Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.

Coming to fullfil, I don’t think meaning done and over with.

 

[BTTG]

An addition to my previous post.

(Rom 10:4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Christ ( His perfect righteousness) is the end ( termination) of the law ( legalistic efforts to establish our own righteousness by our own works - this was the old covenant experience), so that there may be righteousness ( the only true righteousness) for everyone who believes ( the new covenant experience). Christ ended the 613 commandments at the cross ( (Col 2:14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

Do you like Strong’s Concordance?

written with love

 

[Robbinson]

Thanks Brian for your responses.
Let’s try this from a different angle. If Christ is the “end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone that believes”, to mean that God’s law given to Moses is terminated or fulfilled , then does that mean that before Christ came into the world that the only way to achieve righteousness was by obeying the law?

Craig - I’m not sure where you are “going” with this inquiry, but for a Jew, before Christ, the only path to righteousness was obeying the mosaic law. But I’d suggest no-one was capable of fully obeying the law and thus in the old covenant God created a means of atonement to cover our sins. See Romans 2:25-26. "Circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision."

In the new covenant we are subject to God’s law - but Christ fulfilled the mosaic law, what remains is the Decalogue (this is the teaching of the Catholic Church) written into our hearts - yet, as I’ve noted now in several replies, the Sabbath (which is what you seem to be debating here) has been fullfilled each “Saturday” and each and every “day” in our rest in Christ.

As I must be missing your point - what exactly is your point (that you are trying to make) as we both agree the Decalogue continues (but not the rest of the mosaic law) and both agree the Sabbath is part of the Decalogue - but perhaps disagree on whether it has been fulfilled?

I disagree with your assertion that the mosaic law (including Sabbath observance) existed prior to Sinai - but I think that is a red herring for what you are really “preaching” here - which is trying to build your case that 7th day Sabbath observance is an ongoing “law” which has not been fulfilled (right?)

 

[BTTG]

Matthew 5:17

Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.

Coming to fullfil, I don’t think meaning done and over with.

Hi Crimson

With your response… then do you agree that the 10 commandments given to Moses are to be obeyed today?

written with love