Commandments

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Craig - yet again, the Sabbath Commandment is fulfilled in Christ - the Lord’s Day is not the Sabbath and not technically a fulfilling of the Sabbath commandment, fulfilled in Christ, but the solemnity of the Sabbath is observed on the Lord’s day.

To be fair to you - there is a fair amount of misunderstanding (among denominations) regarding Sunday as “the Sabbath” v. “a” Sabbath - but this is the best way I can explain it to you. The Catechism says that “Sunday is expressly distinghished from the sabbath which it follows chrononoligically every week”. The Lord’s day is a ceremonial observe which replaces that of the Sabbath (but this is because the Sabbath commandment is “fulfilled” in our rest in Christ - not that the “Sabbath commandment” is being moved to Sunday. Though, ultimately, I suppose its a distinction without a difference (except to someone like you who believes the saturday Sabbath commandment continues).

I hope that helps.

Blessings,

Brian
Sorry Brian, I just can’t seem to wrap my head around the Catholic understanding.

Could you tell me the differences ( i,e. how it is observed,) between the Sabbath Day ( in the Decalogue- given to Moses) and the Catholic Lord’s day?

thanks craig
 
Interesting - I see the garden of eden as “perpetual rest” and “perpetual fellowship” with God - all “resting in his eternal 7th day”. I see banishment of the garen of eden as banishment from God’s fellowship and from his “rest” - the Sabbath was given as a way for Israel to fellowship with God on the 7th day as a forshadowing and glimpse of what it would be like when they again enjoyed his fellowship. That is what happens when the Holy Spirit enters our heart and we accept Christ.

Once again - there is not a single verse of scripture that suggests that Jews or others celebrated the Sabbath before sinai - and after Sinai - the Sabbath commandment was only to Israel. Interesting that you hold this different view without scriptural or historical support - but I understand that is what your church teaches.

Blessings,

Brian
Forgive me if I am misunderstanding you, but if “banishment of the garen of eden as banishment from God’s fellowship and from his “rest”” . Does that mean that all people up until Israel are banished from God’s fellowship and “resting” in Him?

Interesting to note that we are all Jews today, not in the flesh, but spiritually. As you know from Jer.

Israel did not observe the Sabbath day as God intended it to be. Thus we today are to observe the Sabbath day, not by works, but within in hearts and our minds. It is a seal between God and us.
 
Sorry Brian, I just can’t seem to wrap my head around the Catholic understanding.

Could you tell me the differences ( i,e. how it is observed,) between the Sabbath Day ( in the Decalogue- given to Moses) and the Catholic Lord’s day?

thanks craig
Craig

I’ll try. The Lord’s Day is not the “Sabbath” so its observance doesn’t correlate exactly with the observances of the Saturday Sabbath under the mosaic law.

The Lord’s Day is a celebration and commemoration of the date Jesus rose from the dead and symbolizes the “new creation” ushered in by Jesus’s resurrection and our redemption from sin (as opposed to the Saturday Sabbath which commemorated the creation of the world (first creation) and redemption of Israel from bondage in Egypt).

The church views the Lord’s Day, while distinguished from the Sabbath, as fulfilling the spiritual truth of the Jewish Sabbath and announces mand’s “eternal rest” in God (this is what the Catechism says - and what I was explaining before - our “eternal” rest in Christ/God rather than rest on the 7th day).

The centerpiece of Lord’s Day observance is the Eucharist (at the Mass) where we participate in Jesus sacrifice (once and for all sacrifice) made present for us.

Like (but not with the same level of restrictions applied to the Saturday Sabbath) the Church teaches that the Lord’s Day should be a day of rest by refraining from engaging in work or activities which hinder the worship of God and the performance of works of mercy and Chrisitans are urged to avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord’s Day.

Blessings

Brian
 
(Joh 14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

What commandments is Jesus speaking of in this verse. Is it the 10 commandments handed to Moses on Mt. Sinai?
 
Forgive me if I am misunderstanding you, but if “banishment of the garen of eden as banishment from God’s fellowship and from his “rest”” . Does that mean that all people up until Israel are banished from God’s fellowship and “resting” in Him?
Yes - we (mankind) did not enjoy God’s rest or fellowship (in the intimate way we did in the garden of eden) since the garden of eden. The NT tells us that even Israel, given the Sabbath for rest, did not enter that rest. "As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”(Heb 3:11).Interesting to note that we are all Jews today, not in the flesh, but spiritually.

Interesting to note that we are all Jews today, not in the flesh, but spiritually.
Note quite - Jews are just that two southern tribes of Israel. Gentiles are not “Israel”, but believing Gentiles as “spiritual children of Abraham” are grafted into the promises given to Israel (just to be more technically clear - that distinction has implications in other areas of scriptural exegesis).
As you know from Jer.
Israel did not observe the Sabbath day as God intended it to be. Thus we today are to observe the Sabbath day, not by works, but within in hearts and our minds. It is a seal between God and us.
I agree with this - so we have a point of common agreement - and I believe that “believers” to celebrate the Saturday Sabbath day (and every day) with “rest” in Christ in our hearts and our minds. Are we just disagreeing over whether someone goes to “Church” on Saturday or Sunday ?
 
(Joh 14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

What commandments is Jesus speaking of in this verse. Is it the 10 commandments handed to Moses on Mt. Sinai?
I think it is everything that Jesus taught his disciples - the moral law, the extensive teachings and sermons on the mounts (beatitudes). Interestingly, 9 of the 10 commandments are expressly discussed and elaborated on (not the Sabbath) . . .

Blessings,

Brian
 
Craig

I’ll try. The Lord’s Day is not the “Sabbath” so its observance doesn’t correlate exactly with the observances of the Saturday Sabbath under the mosaic law.

The Lord’s Day is a celebration and commemoration of the date Jesus rose from the dead and symbolizes the “new creation” ushered in by Jesus’s resurrection and our redemption from sin (as opposed to the Saturday Sabbath which commemorated the creation of the world (first creation) and redemption of Israel from bondage in Egypt).

The church views the Lord’s Day, while distinguished from the Sabbath, as fulfilling the spiritual truth of the Jewish Sabbath and announces mand’s “eternal rest” in God (this is what the Catechism says - and what I was explaining before - our “eternal” rest in Christ/God rather than rest on the 7th day).

The centerpiece of Lord’s Day observance is the Eucharist (at the Mass) where we participate in Jesus sacrifice (once and for all sacrifice) made present for us.

Like (but not with the same level of restrictions applied to the Saturday Sabbath) the Church teaches that the Lord’s Day should be a day of rest by refraining from engaging in work or activities which hinder the worship of God and the performance of works of mercy and Chrisitans are urged to avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord’s Day.

Blessings

Brian
Brian, Thank you for the explanation. Reads to me that the Sabbath day is very very similar to the Lord’s Day in worship. What " level of restrictions" would that be?

Do you know who “coined:” the phrase “Lord’s day”?
 
I think it is everything that Jesus taught his disciples - the moral law, the extensive teachings and sermons on the mounts (beatitudes). Interestingly, 9 of the 10 commandments are expressly discussed and elaborated on (not the Sabbath) . . .

Blessings,

Brian
Does the verse include the Sabbath day commandment?
 
Yes - we (mankind) did not enjoy God’s rest or fellowship (in the intimate way we did in the garden of eden) since the garden of eden. The NT tells us that even Israel, given the Sabbath for rest, did not enter that rest. "As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”(Heb 3:11).Interesting to note that we are all Jews today, not in the flesh, but spiritually.


Note quite - Jews are just that two southern tribes of Israel. Gentiles are not “Israel”, but believing Gentiles as “spiritual children of Abraham” are grafted into the promises given to Israel (just to be more technically clear - that distinction has implications in other areas of scriptural exegesis).

I agree with this - so we have a point of common agreement - and I believe that “believers” to celebrate the Saturday Sabbath day (and every day) with “rest” in Christ in our hearts and our minds. Are we just disagreeing over whether someone goes to “Church” on Saturday or Sunday ?
It was Israel who did not want to enter into God’s rest. It was not God who blinded the Israelites from doing so.

Agree with your comment…“spiritual children of Abraham” are grafted into the promises given to Israel .
 
The Sabbath commandment was not repeated or taught by Jesus (interestingly, the 9 others were).

Blessings,

Brian
With do respect and love, did the verse stating the commandments include the Sabbath Day commandment?
 
Brian, Thank you for the explanation. Reads to me that the Sabbath day is very very similar to the Lord’s Day in worship. What " level of restrictions" would that be?

Do you know who “coined:” the phrase “Lord’s day”?
You presumably have something specific in mind, so I imagine you will tell us eventually what you think 🙂 - but since you ask, we need go only to scripture and to early first century writings:

The phrase ‘the Lord’s Day’ occurs first in Rev. 1:10, the only occurrence of it in the NT.

** “I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day”**,

A similar phrase appears in the Didache (circa 1st century) , The readers of this work are instructed to gather on the Lord’s Day to break bread and to give thanks (Did. 14:1).
 
With do respect and love, did the verse stating the commandments include the Sabbath Day commandment?
Craig - you lost me on this follow up inquiry to what I hoped was a clear answer - no, I do not believe that Jesus taught in the NT (nor did the epistles teach) observance, after Christ’s death and resurrection, of the Sabbath Day commandment. As you certainly have something in mind, please tell me what verses you are thinking about - if I’m missing something, I’ll try sincerely to be as responsive as possible.

Blessings,

Brian
 
It was Israel who did not want to enter into God’s rest. It was not God who blinded the Israelites from doing so.
I agree with you - did anyone suggest otherwise?

Although since you mention God blinding - God did cause Israel, in large part, to be “blind” to the Messiah (I will cause them to have eyes but not see, and ears but not hear). For how long? Paul answers that in Romans 11 - until the full altoment of Gentiles comes in. . . but that is a completely different topic 🙂
 
I agree with you - did anyone suggest otherwise?

Although since you mention God blinding - God did cause Israel, in large part, to be “blind” to the Messiah (I will cause them to have eyes but not see, and ears but not hear). For how long? Paul answers that in Romans 11 - until the full altoment of Gentiles comes in. . . but that is a completely different topic 🙂
This is something… we both love God and love each other, yet we disagree on God’s word again of “blinding” Israel, but that’s ok with me because I’m learning. Why would a loving God want to blind anyone from His love. I will respond to this in a private message since this is not the topic of discussion.

For your thinking…“until the full altoment of Gentiles comes in”. That would mean Israel would be blinded until the end ( full allotment of the Gentiles) of the world. See you in private
 
I agree with you - did anyone suggest otherwise?

Although since you mention God blinding - God did cause Israel, in large part, to be “blind” to the Messiah (I will cause them to have eyes but not see, and ears but not hear). For how long? Paul answers that in Romans 11 - until the full altoment of Gentiles comes in. . . but that is a completely different topic 🙂
(1Jn 5:3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Is " commandments" in this verse the Decalogue ( this is for others Brian) the 10 commandments God gave to Moses) ?
 
Craig - you lost me on this follow up inquiry to what I hoped was a clear answer - no, I do not believe that Jesus taught in the NT (nor did the epistles teach) observance, after Christ’s death and resurrection, of the Sabbath Day commandment. As you certainly have something in mind, please tell me what verses you are thinking about - if I’m missing something, I’ll try sincerely to be as responsive as possible.

Blessings,

Brian
Brian… I was not trying to be smart. I just wanted an answer for the verse…(Joh 14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Just to recap. the " commandments" in this verse include the Decalogue, including the Sabbath?
 
You presumably have something specific in mind, so I imagine you will tell us eventually what you think 🙂 - but since you ask, we need go only to scripture and to early first century writings:

The phrase ‘the Lord’s Day’ occurs first in Rev. 1:10, the only occurrence of it in the NT.

** “I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day”**,

A similar phrase appears in the Didache (circa 1st century) , The readers of this work are instructed to gather on the Lord’s Day to break bread and to give thanks (Did. 14:1).
With research I did on the Didache… I cannot use the information as there are some flaws.

Regarding the Lord’s day… Rev 1:10, I do not believe that anyone can determine what day of the week John was referring to.

How did the Catholic Church interpret that verse as a Sunday?

I was not trying to be smart with my question of Lord’s day. I really don’t know when the word Lord’s day, was now Sunday.

written with love
 
… for the early Church, the first day increasingly assimilated the traditional meaning of the seventh day, the Sabbath. We participate in God’s rest, which embraces all of humanity. Thus we sense on this day something of the freedom and equality of all God’s creatures. — Homily of Pope Benedict XVI, Sunday, 9 September 2007

God’s biblical rest day is the seventh day of the week, Saturday. It is not the first day of the week, Sunday. Scripture never designates the first day of the week as the Lord’s day, however, God calls the sabbath “my holy day” (Isa. 58:13) and refers to Himself as Lord “of the sabbath day” (Matt.12:8, Mk 2:28, Lk 6:5).
 
This is something… we both love God and love each other, yet we disagree on God’s word again of “blinding” Israel, but that’s ok with me because I’m learning. Why would a loving God want to blind anyone from His love. I will respond to this in a private message since this is not the topic of discussion.

For your thinking…“until the full allotment of Gentiles comes in”. That would mean Israel would be blinded until the end ( full allotment of the Gentiles) of the world. See you in private
Lets see what God’s words says:

"And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.” 9 And he said, “Go, and say to this people: ‘Hear and hear, but do not understand; see and see, but do not perceive.’ 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” 11 Then I said, “How long, O Lord?” And he said: “Until cities lie waste without inhabitant, and houses without men, and the land is utterly desolate, 12 and the LORD removes men far away, and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land. 13 And though a tenth remain in it, it will be burned again, like a terebinth or an oak, whose stump remains standing when it is felled.” The holy seed is its stump. "(Is 6:8–13).

Lest there be any doubt that God was talking here about Israel and supernatural blindness, Paul refers specifically to these verses and applies them to Israel (as a collective):

"as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear,
down to this very day.”
9 And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a pitfall and a retribution for them; 10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs for ever.”
11 So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! But through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole lump; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 You will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree.
25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, (Ro 11:8–26).

It is a great mystery, but God has in fact supernaturally blinded Israel (as a collective), though there is a remnant who accepted Him and who accepts Him now. But as God desires that all be saved (i) there is an end time plan to lift the veil from Israel in the end times and (ii) I believe that God will lift the veil on unbelieving Israelites in the moment before death - Jesus calls out to His sheep and His sheep know his voice. I believe the thief on the cross accepting Christ in the moment before death is an image of this.

In any event, the Church teaches the doctrine of invincible ignorance - that those who do not know Christ through no fault of their own will be held accountable to the level of revelation made available to them. I believe this - and also believe God will reveal Himself to each of us at some point in our lives (some earlier, some later).

Blessings,

Brian
 
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