Commandments

[Vince1022]

Please note that I did not say they could not worship nor did not worship but I said that they DID NOT worship as they ONCE did. They no longer had sacrificial worships. Today they still worship God but they do not worship the same way as when they had the Temple.

Thanks for the clarification. Sorry for any misunderstanding. Still, you were referring to the 1st century A.D., so my point was that the Temple had also been destroyed centuries earlier. And so, the claim you presented was not unique to the first century A.D. for Jews.

 

[adrift]

Thanks for the clarification. Sorry for any misunderstanding. Still, you were referring to the 1st century A.D., so my point was that the Temple had also been destroyed centuries earlier. And so, the claim you presented was not unique to the first century A.D. for Jews.

I didn’t mean it to be. My point is that unlike the destruction of the first temple the temple has not been restored. There are plans but I don’t think it will ever be. The type of worship has been changed just like the worship day.

 

[Robbinson]

This is a public forum it is not for you to carry on a private coversation.

If you have something to say to an individual member that is not of general interest to the board, use the private messaging system. Otherwise it is open to anyone who wishes to comment.

Craig - I agree with Adrift (both on this response), and on his substantive response to your question: “It is a hint of what is to come”.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Vince1022]

I didn’t mean it to be. My point is that unlike the destruction of the first temple the temple has not been restored. There are plans but I don’t think it will ever be. The type of worship has been changed just like the worship day.

The worship day has not changed for Jews.

The type of worship has, yes, in the 6th century B.C. as well as the first century A.D.

 

[adrift]

The worship day has not changed for Jews.

The type of worship has, yes, in the 6th century B.C. as well as the first century A.D.

I was referring to Christians changing the day of worship not the Jews. I was unclear sorry.

Catechism

2055
When someone asks him, "Which commandment in the Law is the greatest?"8 Jesus replies: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the prophets."9 The Decalogue must be interpreted in light of this twofold yet single commandment of love, the fullness of the Law:

What Jesus says is the first commandment really is a summarization of the first three and the second the last seven.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. Which means He decides how it is to be honored. I don’t see anywhere that Jesus says that it must be the seventh day but I do see Him giving authority to His Church.
Jesus said The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27). We are not to be a servant to the day. Sabbath means rest and man does need rest from worldly things. To say a particular day has to be that rest is making man a slave to Sabbath.

Tertullian

“[L]et him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day . . . teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered ‘friends of God.’ For if circumcision purges a man, since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did he not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? . . . Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering him sacrifices, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, was by him [God] commended [Gen. 4:1–7, Heb. 11:4]. . . . Noah also, uncircumcised—yes, and unobservant of the Sabbath—God freed from the deluge. For Enoch too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, he translated from this world, who did not first taste death in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God” (An Answer to the Jews 2 [A.D. 203]).

The New Testament speaks of the Christian community gathering on Sunday. They were beginning to have gentile converts who were not required to be circumcised and there is nothing to suggest that they kept the Sabbath.
One more pertinent quote

Justin Martyr

“[W]e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . [H]ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . .” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]).

“But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead” (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).

 

[diggerdomer]

My support is the bible. Why does it have to be supported by the Catholic Church?

written with love

So are you saying Paul, as a Christian, worshiped on the sabbath or not? You didn’t answer that question.

 

[diggerdomer]

Ok, lets take this one step at a time.

Show me/indicate the verses in the bible that show Paul preached/worshiped on Sunday?

thank you

written with love

There is nothing in Scripture that says Paul worshiped on either day. That’s my point.

Nice job answering a question with a question!

 

[BTTG]

There is nothing in Scripture that says Paul worshiped on either day. That’s my point.

Nice job answering a question with a question!

Paul did worship on Sabbath (Saturday);

(Act 18:4) And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

• “reasoned” according to Strongs, is “preached unto”.

(Act 13:42) And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

written with love

 

[adrift]

7 And upon the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and prolonged his speech until midnight.

Acts 20:7

Discoursed is the same word used in Act 18:4

Paul Worshipped on Sunday.

 

[BTTG]

Acts 20:7

Discoursed is the same word used in Act 18:4

Paul Worshipped on Sunday.

what bible would you be using?

thank you

 

[BTTG]

IB] read one scripture, on one occasion in which Paul gathered to preach on Sunday: (Act 20:7) And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Then I read the following verses in Acts where Paul preached on the Sabbath/Saturday:

(Act 18:4) And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

(Act 17:2) And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

The evidence of the Bible strongly indicates that the Sabbath/Saturday was the day of worship.

written with love

(Act 13:14) But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

(Act 13:44) And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

(Act 13:45) But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

(Act 16:13) And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

 

[adrift]

what bible would you be using?

thank you

I am using a Greek translation.

 

[pablope]

IB] read one scripture, on one occasion in which Paul gathered to preach on Sunday:

(Act 20:7) And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Then I read the following verses in Acts where Paul preached on the Sabbath/Saturday:

(Act 18:4) And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

(Act 17:2) And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

The evidence of the Bible strongly indicates that the Sabbath/Saturday was the day of worship.

written with love

(Act 13:14) But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

(Act 13:44) And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

(Act 13:45) But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

(Act 16:13) And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

Let me ask you a question:

If you wanted to convert Catholics, and you know they went to worship on Sundays, would you try to talk to them on a Monday, Saturday, Friday? Or would you rather maximize your time effort and go talk to them on Sundays, after Mass?

Paul, in wanting to convert Jews, would of course do it on the day of Jewish worship, where he could reach the widest audience. He was being smart, wasn’t he.

But, as you quoted in Acts 20, he broke bread, meaning went to worship or went to Mass, the new form of worship, with the Apostles on sunday.

 

[realpatience]

Let me ask you a question:

If you wanted to convert Catholics, and you know they went to worship on Sundays, would you try to talk to them on a Monday, Saturday, Friday? Or would you rather maximize your time effort and go talk to them on Sundays, after Mass?

Paul, in wanting to convert Jews, would of course do it on the day of Jewish worship, where he could reach the widest audience. He was being smart, wasn’t he.

But, as you quoted in Acts 20, he broke bread, meaning went to worship or went to Mass, the new form of worship, with the Apostles on sunday.

Hi! May I join in on the discussion?

You pointed out that Paul broke bread/worshipped on Sunday in Acts 20. But the account says this happened on “the first day of the week”, not Sunday. Isn’t this “first day of the week” reckoned from Saturday sunset to Sunday sunset? That would place their meeting to be on Saturday night and Paul’s preaching happening the whole night Saturday until midnight of that same day. Paul did not preach on Sunday here but instead stopped preaching when Sunday arrived.

Then we see that in the morning (Sunday morning) they all left for Assos with Paul going on foot while his companions sailing/rowing a boat. Rather than show us the apostles are now worshipping on Sunday, I think Acts 20 instead shows that Sunday was a normal working day for these people.

 

[Robbinson]

Hi! May I join in on the discussion?

You pointed out that Paul broke bread/worshipped on Sunday in Acts 20. But the account says this happened on “the first day of the week”, not Sunday. Isn’t this “first day of the week” reckoned from Saturday sunset to Sunday sunset? That would place their meeting to be on Saturday night and Paul’s preaching happening the whole night Saturday until midnight of that same day. Paul did not preach on Sunday here but instead stopped preaching when Sunday arrived.

Then we see that in the morning (Sunday morning) they all left for Assos with Paul going on foot while his companions sailing/rowing a boat. Rather than show us the apostles are now worshipping on Sunday, I think Acts 20 instead shows that Sunday was a normal working day for these people.

While it is true that the Jewish/Hebrew calendar measured (and measaures) days from sundown to sundown - so the “first day of the week” would include both saturday evening and all day Sunday until Sunday evening (i) writings of the earliest christians (going back to the first and second century and historical writings of Jewiish non-believers from that same period, show us that the “Christians” met on “sunday” - the first day of the week and (ii) the Catholic Church also has masses on Saturday evening in satisfaction of the Sunday mass (because it is the “same day”) as you point out.

What BTTG was suggesting was that Christians worshiped on the “Sabbath” (and not on the “first day of the week” (Saturday evening or Sunday) - In either case, Saturday evening or Sunday would not be the “Sabbath” (7th day Sabbath) -but rather, the “first day of the week”.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[pablope]

Hi! May I join in on the discussion?

You pointed out that Paul broke bread/worshipped on Sunday in Acts 20. But the account says this happened on “the first day of the week”, not Sunday. Isn’t this “first day of the week” reckoned from Saturday sunset to Sunday sunset? That would place their meeting to be on Saturday night and Paul’s preaching happening the whole night Saturday until midnight of that same day. Paul did not preach on Sunday here but instead stopped preaching when Sunday arrived.

Then we see that in the morning (Sunday morning) they all left for Assos with Paul going on foot while his companions sailing/rowing a boat. Rather than show us the apostles are now worshipping on Sunday, I think Acts 20 instead shows that Sunday was a normal working day for these people.

Sunday was/is the first day of the week, being the day of the Resurrection. The Jewish Sabbath starts sundown/sunset on a Friday and ends on sundown/sunset Saturday.

Here is the vers 7:

7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

8And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.

I think you are assuming too much in inferring they met on Saturday night.

Here is a transliteration:

We met on Sunday to worship and celebrate the Master’s Supper. Paul addressed the congregation. Our plan was to leave first thing in the morning, but Paul talked on, way past midnight. We were meeting in a well-lighted upper room.

Looks like they met anytime on a Sunday, with Paul speaking way past midnight. They still left the next morning, with little sleep.

But the point is, they met on a Sunday to worship. BTTG is, I believe a SDA, and believes the day of worship should be Saturday.

 

[BTTG]

Let me ask you a question:

If you wanted to convert Catholics, and you know they went to worship on Sundays, would you try to talk to them on a Monday, Saturday, Friday? Or would you rather maximize your time effort and go talk to them on Sundays, after Mass?

Paul, in wanting to convert Jews, would of course do it on the day of Jewish worship, where he could reach the widest audience. He was being smart, wasn’t he.

But, as you quoted in Acts 20, he broke bread, meaning went to worship or went to Mass, the new form of worship, with the Apostles on sunday.

Paul just wasn’t talking to them, he was preaching the true word of God. How can Paul preach the truth of God’s word, on the wrong day of worship.
Paul preached **every **Sabbath to the Jews and Gentiles. That means that Paul preached for at least 84 Sabbaths.
Why would Paul preach to the Greeks on the Sabbath both in the synagogue and by a river side if Sunday was the day of worship. If Sunday was the day of worship, why preach to the Gentiles on the Sabbath, if God wanted Sunday as a day to honor Him. By continuing to preach on the Sabbath this would be disobeying God. When Paul was persuading the Greeks, why would he teach them about the truth of Jesus on the wrong day of the week to worship.

The breaking of bread was a daily custom amongst the Jews. I think you are assuming in this verse that the breaking of bread means that it meant Mass.

 

[BTTG]

Sunday was/is the first day of the week, being the day of the Resurrection. The Jewish Sabbath starts sundown/sunset on a Friday and ends on sundown/sunset Saturday.

Here is the vers 7:

7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

8And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.

I think you are assuming too much in inferring they met on Saturday night.

Here is a transliteration:

We met on Sunday to worship and celebrate the Master’s Supper. Paul addressed the congregation. Our plan was to leave first thing in the morning, but Paul talked on, way past midnight. We were meeting in a well-lighted upper room.

Looks like they met anytime on a Sunday, with Paul speaking way past midnight. They still left the next morning, with little sleep.

But the point is, they met on a Sunday to worship. BTTG is, I believe a SDA, and believes the day of worship should be Saturday.

With respect, we have one verse in the bible which talks about the disciples coming together on Sunday to hear Paul preach. There are no other verses in the bible about the disciples preaching or worshiping to Jews, or Greeks on Sunday. Luke records that the Sabbath day of worship is observed during his time ( at least 40 years after the crucifixion of Jesus). (Luk 23:56) And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke does not say and rested on the Sabbath “that was” according to the commandment.

written with love

 

[pablope]

Paul just wasn’t talking to them, he was preaching the true word of God. How can Paul preach the truth of God’s word, on the wrong day of worship.
Paul preached **every **Sabbath to the Jews and Gentiles. That means that Paul preached for at least 84 Sabbaths.
Why would Paul preach to the Greeks on the Sabbath both in the synagogue and by a river side if Sunday was the day of worship. If Sunday was the day of worship, why preach to the Gentiles on the Sabbath, if God wanted Sunday as a day to honor Him. By continuing to preach on the Sabbath this would be disobeying God. When Paul was persuading the Greeks, why would he teach them about the truth of Jesus on the wrong day of the week to worship.

The breaking of bread was a daily custom amongst the Jews. I think you are assuming in this verse that the breaking of bread means that it meant Mass.

Because Paul, having converted to Catholicism by this time, was not worshipping on the Sabbath. He is a full blown catholic by this time, having been called by Christ years earlier.

As is evidenced in Acts, he was preaching the Gospel of Christ to the Jews on Sabbath because this was the day he could reach the most Jews. He was trying to covert the jews and gentiles.

If he was worshipping, then he would be reading the Torah or some part of the Jewish Septuagint. But the accounts state he was proving to the jews that Jesus was the messiah and the preaching the new Gospel of Christ.

As for the Gentiles, why would they necessarily be worshipping on the Sabbath? They were not Jews.

Preaching is not worshipping. This is your 21st century mindset and an after effect of the Reformation and your denomination, where Protestents, in order to be not very catholic, wanted to deviate from Catholic practice, so they changed the form of worship. And this is what you are seeing. I suggest you read up on the early Christian form of worship and you will see that it is not very far from the Mass today. Look and study this objectively, and without your Protestant mindset. Keep an open mind.

The new form of worship was instituted by Christ at the Last Supper, a new form of breaking of the bread, if you will-now called the Mass.

I would suggest you re-read the accounts of the Last Supper.

Luke 22:19 (King James Version)
19And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Matthew 26:26 (King James Version)
26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

Breaking of the bread is another name or description of what happens at the Mass. So yes, the verse stating the breaking of bread refers to the Mass. And the fact that they also did this on a Sunday.

 

[adrift]

A: Jesus exercised his sovereign power to abrogate the sabbath law in at least some way. This is why he states, “For the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath” (Mt 12:8). Both “Son of Man” and “Lord” are references to Christ’s sovereign power. The footnote in your Confraternity Version is wrong. Footnotes in Catholic Bibles are not infallible. (See “Dragnet” in the January 1994 issue of This Rock for a place where we caught one such footnote in an outright historical error).

The sabbath command is the only one of the Ten Commandments which can be altered in any way, because only it is a part of the ceremonial law. This is taught by the Roman Catechism issued after the Council of Trent:

The other commandments of the Decalogue are precepts of the natural law, obligatory at all times and unalterable. Hence, after the abrogation of the Law of Moses, all the Commandments contained in the two tables are observed by Christians, not indeed because their observance is commanded by Moses, but because they are in conformity with nature which dictates obedience to them.

This Commandment about the observance of the sabbath, on the other hand, considered as to the time appointed for its fulfillment, is not fixed and unalterable, but susceptible of change and belongs not to the moral, but the ceremonial law. Neither is it a principle of the natural law; we are not instructed by nature to give external worship to God on that day, rather than on any other. And in fact the sabbath was kept holy only from the time of the liberation of the people of Israel from the bondage of Pharaoh.

The observance of the sabbath was to be abrogated at the same time as the other Hebrew rites and ceremonies, that is, at the death of Christ. . . . Hence St. Paul, in his epistle to the Galatians, when reproving the observers of the Mosaic rites, says: “You observe days and months and times and years; I am afraid of you lest perhaps I have labored in vain amongst you” (Gal 4:10). And he writes to the same effect to the Colossians (Col 2:16).