Commentary: "Why American Children Stopped Believing in God"

[Gorgias]

Never had anyone from the gov. come into my house when I was as kid and tell my parents with their 11 children how to raise us or keep them from teaching us about God. Nor have I encountered such with raising my child.

Not what I said. However, the government does interfere in our behavior, if by their actions and laws, they designate sinful behavior as ‘legal’, and it thereby undermines parents’ abilities to teach virtuous behavior.

I don’t recall what you are referring to under Obama, you will have to explain that.

https://www.npr.org/2014/02/25/282523501/religious-freedom-bills-rooted-in-obama-era-fears

Recall that he attempted to force Catholic religious organizations to pay the costs of coverage for birth control for their members – including congregations of religious nuns!

I also recall that there was lots of discussion that Obama framed things up in terms of “freedom of worship” as opposed to the Constitutionally-guaranteed “freedom of religion”: https://www.wsj.com/articles/freedom-of-worship-isnt-enough-1465511901

 

[farronwolf]

The fact that something is legal which is morally wrong does not undermine a parents ability to teach virtuous behavior. Parents can teach away. If the child decides that something that is immoral but legal is a behavior they are going to start doing, the gov. had nothing to do with it. The child made the decision themselves. God gives us free will. He tells us what is right and lets us decide. No different than what a parent does for their child.

The sisters case has been resolved in the courts. This is the way that our American system of gov. is set up. They won.

Our laws in the US are what the people want them to be. If we don’t like it we can change them at any time, whether it be by legislation or Constitutional amendment. It really is that simple.

Regarding the ACA and the mandate for covering contraceptives, the laws state they are legal. Therefore any laws that have to do with health insurance coverage with the intent on providing all persons with the ability to get covered for medical care should include provisions for contraceptives. Without a standard for what coverage is going to be insurance companies would simply cover the least likely, least expensive measures and maximize profits. One reason there is a provision in the ACA for preexisting conditions.

It is up to the organization, ie the sisters, to challenge the law and provide a reason why it should not apply to them based on their religious beliefs. General Motors on the other hand can make no such claim.

But back to the original post and the notion that schools or the government are the reason children stopped believing in God, that is nonsense. That blame falls squarely on the parents and the upbringing of the children. People blaming others for the ills of society need simply to look the mirror.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

the notion that schools or the government are the reason children stopped believing in God, that is nonsense. That blame falls squarely on the parents and the upbringing of the children. People blaming others for the ills of society need simply to look the mirror.

I think the thinking is that if everyone else doesn’t model the behavior then the parent’s efforts are moot.

I wouldn’t say it’s purely on the parents. For some of us, some things taught by our parents just don’t stick.

 

[Gorgias]

The fact that something is legal which is morally wrong does not undermine a parents ability to teach virtuous behavior. Parents can teach away.

Certainly they can. But, when the culture in which they’re immersed, and the government which governs that culture, both assert that “up is down” and “black is white”, it’s quite difficult for parents to teach otherwise. That’s all I’m saying. The culture and our government acts at odds with the things that Catholic and Christian parents which to teach their kids to believe and to do.

The sisters case has been resolved in the courts. This is the way that our American system of gov. is set up. They won.

My assertion wasn’t that “Obama won”, but that Obama attempted to do these things. That assertion is true.

the laws state they are legal.

You’re familiar with the concept of ‘tautology’, right?

Yes, a law – by its very existence – is an assertion by the state about the legality of an act. Your point, then, is…???

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

the government which governs that culture

The direction of government is a direct consequence of the extremes of culture. I wouldn’t say it governs a culture.

 

[Freddy]

That was their promise, of course if we the people had some recourse to stop all of the lies that the politicians , use to gain power, that could change the country. Maybe if we saw justice prevail, more people would come back to God, and not just give up.

Can you point me to where this was declared a policy by someone?

 

[farronwolf]

Yes, a law – by its very existence – is an assertion by the state about the legality of an act. Your point, then, is…???

The law can state if something is legal or illegal, or it may be silent on an issue, especially if it is a new technology or medical procedure etc., or it could be ambiguous on an issue, which is where many of the lawsuits stem from.

If you didn’t get my point previously I am not going to try to lay it out again for you. I guess that is why you failed to address the issue of the ACA mandating contraceptives and why it should have done so.

My assertion wasn’t that “Obama won”, but that Obama attempted to do these things.

Obama didn’t attempt to do these things, the ACA which Obama signed did do these things, except for a very narrow segment of the population. There is no attempt for the rest of the populace, it is.

 

[farronwolf]

I wouldn’t say it’s purely on the parents. For some of us, some things taught by our parents just don’t stick.

Is that the fault of the gov. in some manner, or is that your choice to exercise your free will which God gave you?

Was it the gov. which made you not follow what your parents taught you or was it your friends, or others which you chose to associate with and were allowed to influence your behavior?

 

[JimG]

Things like ACA regulations are not necessarily “the law.” That is, they are not enacted by Congress. They are enacted by the bureaucracy and can be changed by the bureaucracy. But once promulgated they do have the force of law–until changed. Congress didn’t write the contraceptive rule for the ACA; the administration did, using the HHS bureaucracy.

 

[Peeps]

But back to the original post and the notion that schools or the government are the reason children stopped believing in God, that is nonsense. That blame falls squarely on the parents and the upbringing of the children. People blaming others for the ills of society need simply to look the mirror.

Parents?

In our city, 200 children are known to be homeless and without parents.

I don’t have the percentage, but a fairly large number of children are homeless along with their parent(s).

I do not have the exact percentage, but I know that it’s shockingly high–many children in our city live in a dwelling with only one parent. And a percentage of these parents are “not present” because they are involved with drugs, prostitution, or something else that prevents them from adequately parenting their child(ren).

A children’s shelter in our city provides after-school care until 9:00 p.m. for these children who cannot go home after school because their parent is “not there” or “there, but…working in a profession that is not suitable for children to witness.” Around 200 children find their way to this shelter after school.

We have several police stations scattered around our city, and these places also provide a refuge for children who do not have parents in their homes after school.

Our big (older) downtown churches also run after-school programs for children who can’t go home after school because of absent or “working” parents.

Are you getting the point that in our city, at least, there is a large number of children and teens who do not have adequate parenting available?

So…am I unrealistic to think that by now, schoolteachers should have figured out ways to work with these children to achieve good results (grade level learning)? Isn’t that their job, or more accurately, their profession?

Last week, in our hospital lab, our big (expensive) instrument that performs bacterial susceptibility testing (which antibiotics work and how much needs to be given) broke down, stopped working, went kaput.

So…did we lab techs say, “Sorry, we can’t possibly do this work without our instrument”…is that what we said?

No…we dug out the “manual (by hand) procedure,” re-read it several times, and started doing the testing the old-fashioned way–by hand.

It’s a big fat pain, but it works, and it gives the docs the results they need in a timely way–and we will keep doing it until our instrument can be repaired (sometime next week) or replaced (probably never unless we have a really successful bake sale that can raise around $100,000 to buy a new instrument!)

Everyone who works can tell a story about a time they had to jury-rig a process to get a job done–surely teachers could do the same to help kids who don’t have parents who impart to their children the basic skills and care that prepares the child to achieve good results in school.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Is that the fault of the gov. in some manner, or is that your choice to exercise your free will which God gave you?

Free will obviously.

Was it the gov. which made you not follow what your parents taught you or was it your friends, or others which you chose to associate with and were allowed to influence your behavior?

When you were little, did adults ever tell you “you’ll understand when you get older” as to why certain rules are in place? You accept that as a child and follow it of respect. Well, when I got older I understood and accepted some but rejected others and devised a workable framework for myself.

 

[farronwolf]

As we all do.

 

[farronwolf]

So you agree the primary failure is first and foremost on the parents. They had children who they either could not care for or got into a position at which time they could no longer care for them properly.

Yes we have all had to jerry rig something. As you stated in your lab example. That was short term. I can only assume that it was fixed or replaced in a relatively short amount of time.

The school system picking up the slack is a long term constant issue. If your machine broke every day mid day how would the lab function. How many extra employees would be needed.

The topic of the thread is that schools cause children to no longer believe in God. How does the school system miraculously solve the problem which you described, if they could, and then still get blamed for causing children to loose their belief in God. Or would the solution if found cause children to keep their belief in god.

 

[Freddy]

As we all do.

The biggest influence on children and adolescents? Peers. Pick your children’s friends and you’re half way there.

 

[Billy_Buescher]

I did not say it was a policy, just like the promise of forgiving student debt.

 

[Gorgias]

If you didn’t get my point previously I am not going to try to lay it out again for you.

Apparently, you didn’t get mine, since it flew right over your head. The mere assertion of a notion as “law” doesn’t make it morally valid. Sure, it’s “legal”; that’s what it means to be a law. However, it doesn’t mean it’s right.

But, to your point, there’s still an issue in play: the Catholic Church would claim that use of contraceptives is immoral. We would claim that folks shouldn’t use them at all, and certainly shouldn’t be forced to foot the bill for others to use them. I think that the ACA shouldn’t mandate the coverage of contraceptives.

So then, to your claim that the people can merely change law that they don’t like, how would the good sisters change that law? Answer: they couldn’t. The best that they could accomplish is getting out from the mandate to provide financial cover for immoral activities. (The fact that they’re celibate just makes the irony that much more rich.)

Obama didn’t attempt to do these things, the ACA which Obama signed did do these things

“Officer, I didn’t attempt to kill that man – the gun whose trigger I pulled did that!”

Pick your children’s friends

I’m not seeing the laughing emoji there, @Freddy…

 

[farronwolf]

But, to your point, there’s still an issue in play: the Catholic Church would claim that use of contraceptives is immoral. We would claim that folks shouldn’t use them at all, and certainly shouldn’t be forced to foot the bill for others to use them. I think that the ACA shouldn’t mandate the coverage of contraceptives.

That would be all well and good if our laws were based on the Catholic faith. They are not. Because you or I think the laws should or shouldn’t do a certain thing is irrelevant. We live in a democracy or representative republic, depending on how you look at it. The minority never gets to set the rules.

Yes, people can change the laws, if there are enough of them. The sisters were not able to change the law, but were able to change how the law was applied to them, or how it would not be applied to them.

The SCOTUS suggested that congress address this issue and change the law to prevent this from arising in the narrow scope based on its ruling. Congress has yet to address this issue within the ACA. That should tell everyone that the majority really doesn’t have an issue with the way the law is currently written.

 

[farronwolf]

The biggest influence on children and adolescents? Peers. Pick your children’s friends and you’re half way there.

We can’t really pick our children’s friends for them, but we certainly can guide them. Luckily our son has done a pretty good job of it. There were half a dozen of his friends out at the house last night, like most weekends.

Their idea of living on the edge is drinking sparkling grape juice or mixing up virgin margaritas while sitting on the deck and seeing what they can blow up in the yard with fireworks. On a wild night they will have batting practice with a pool noodle and lit firecrackers.

I guess having a kid who hangs out with a bunch of other band nerds has its advantages.

 

[Gorgias]

The minority never gets to set the rules.

So, we’ve got an interesting conundrum: on one hand, we’re citizens of a democratic republic, with a say in our governance. On the other hand, we don’t have an effective way to ensure that our moral stances are respected by our government. So… we’re exactly where I said we were (way back upthread): our government undermines Catholic parents’ ability to teach virtuous behavior.

 

[farronwolf]

And I will say again, the parents ability to teach virtuous behavior is not undermined.

Parents can teach all day long, the gov. does nothing to stop the teaching of what behavior is acceptable.

If you say that the gov. allows for children to disregard what their parents teach them, we can agree. Or if you say the laws regarding morality make it difficult for children follow the teachings that are given by their parents, we might can agree on that as well.