Comparing Mary with the other Bible superstars. Who's more honorable?

[LilyM]

Oh what I meant was ‘every mother up on Jesus’ ancestral line’.

Mary did not really do anything extraordinary. Rather, everything was served to her on a silver platter. Born without original sin, therefore free from the everyday temptations that torments us all…which also means that she had no cravings for wealth & sexual desire. She was designed as a tool from the very beginning. And not someone who earned their way to the top…like the other bible superstars.

She was no more free of temptation than Christ Himself, or Adam and Eve who were also created without original sin - and we know Adam and Eve were sorely tempted and fell.

We also know He was extremely sorely tempted in the desert and in Gethsemane and seemingly on the cross itself - and probably every moment in between.

Why would Mary be free of temptation? And why would her spiritual life be any easier than than of Adam, Eve or Christ? EVERYONE who is ‘at the top’ spiritually well and truly earns their way there. And she DID give up her son, exactly as Abraham did. She is therefore at least his equal if not his superior.

 

[newbetx]

Thats really no big deal. With or without original sin, what woman out there would decline such an honor? Heck I’m a guy but if an archangel of God approached me with such an offer, i’d say YES! YES! YES! A pregnant man, who cares! har har har

And to show why it was important to God that this not happen, He gave us Mary. To say YOU could just as well have been worthy to be the ark of the new covenant… Now that’s funny! Again, your ability to laugh at these concepts inspires us to do the same.

I can’t thank you enough for this thread. Always an interesting debate with you AT. You once again give me a good subject to go pump up my faith! Thanks.

 

[kim3260]

Thats really no big deal. With or without original sin, what woman out there would decline such an honor? Heck I’m a guy but if an archangel of God approached me with such an offer, i’d say YES! YES! YES! A pregnant man, who cares! har har har

This maybe a joke to you, but I find this a bit offensive. Mary is the Mother of God, born without orginial sin. She had free will, grew up like any other little Jewish girl. But when the time came she said YES to God.
Eve had the same as Mary, in fact Eve had it better, living in the garden of Eden, yet she wanted the one thing God told her not to touch.

 

[po18guy]

Thats really no big deal. With or without original sin, what woman out there would decline such an honor? Heck I’m a guy but if an archangel of God approached me with such an offer, i’d say YES! YES! YES! A pregnant man, who cares! har har har

Aggie, you have lost all concept of culture and society in those days. Much as in some Islamic nations today, Iran in particular, women were stoned to death for adultery. She risked her very life. And how come she was not terror struck at the sight of Gabriel? Everyone else in scripture was fearful at the sight of an angel. I guess the advantage of being sinless does that for you…

 

[newbetx]

Well God had Eve tempted shortly after she was born (in fact she was so young that hadnt discovered sex yet!). At such a young age she had to deal with the ultra persuasive serpent. Its a no brainer, with or without original sin she was destined to be decieved.

I agree that this is most likely true. Certainly Eve could not have understood the danger of talking to a “stranger” in the Garden… Do most “kids”? You are not created with long list of experiences already programmed into your brain. Humans have to learn and learn to reason. Is there some indication where the fall of man would have been a surprise to God.

 

[i_have_no_names]

Who’s more extraordinary? More accomplished? More faithful? And the overall deserving of greater honor? Who sacrificed the most for God?

You make it sound like a competition. Which it is not. All the people you listed were only doing God’s will. If God had asked Mary to be the head of the Church, I’m sure she would have accepted. But He didn’t. He asked Peter. If God had asked Peter to marry and have a son and then kill him, I’m sure he would have accepted. But He didn’t. He asked Abraham. If God had asked Abraham to build a life-sized house out of peanut butter… well… He didn’t - and I’m pretty sure you get my point by now.

God in all his glory spoke directly to Abraham. Thats quite a personal touch, wouldnt you say?
Jesus is God, and He spoke directly to Mary. He also lived with her while He was growing up.

Well both Joseph, Mary and Jesus were decended from Abraham.

Every mother did.

the scriptures make no mention of such title.
Do the scriptures need to mention it in those exact words for it to be true? The scriptures do tell us that Mary gave birth to Jesus. Does that not make her Jesus’ mother? And isn’t Jesus God? Therefore, isn’t it obvious that Mary is the mother of God?

Abraham wins here by a long shot. Assuming that he was a normal dad who dearly loved his own son. Faith & Servitude.
Why is it a competition, anyway? Is it really that important to you? The reason we study the lives of the saints is because they’re good role models. I don’t think it matters which one is “better”.

Catholics dress her up as such. If Abraham can see you from heaven right now he would be screaming “ITS NOT FAIR!!!”
I’d bet you everything I have that he is doing nothing of the sort.

Oh what I meant was ‘every mother up on Jesus’ ancestral line’.

Mary did not really do anything extraordinary. Rather, everything was served to her on a silver platter. Born without original sin, therefore free from the everyday temptations that torments us all…which also means that she had no cravings for wealth & sexual desire. She was designed as a tool from the very beginning. And not someone who earned their way to the top…like the other bible superstars.

She was free from original sin. Not temptation. She had free will like the rest of us.
I don’t think Mary or the others were trying to earn their way to the top. I believe they were more humble than that, simply trying their best to do God’s will.

And why is it that only the new testament characters get the superstar treatment from the catholic church? tis not fair, i tell you.

Why does it matter? And why do you keep calling them superstars? The only other place I have heard that word used in reference to anything religious is Andrew Lloyd Webber’s “Jesus Christ, Superstar”. How come you assume that it is only Catholics who tend to think more about the people from the New Testament? It’s not like the other denominations pay more attention to the Old Testament characters.

Thats really no big deal. With or without original sin, what woman out there would decline such an honor? Heck I’m a guy but if an archangel of God approached me with such an offer, i’d say YES! YES! YES! A pregnant man, who cares! har har har

Would you really?
If one day while you were praying an angel appeared in front of you and asked you to be the “mother” of the saviour of the world that you, along with millions of others around the world, had been praying and waiting for for centuries, you’d say yes right away without hesitation? You’re sure you wouldn’t have a heart-attack when the angel appeared and started talking to you? You’re sure you wouldn’t start to seriously question your sanity when the angel asked you to be the one to bring Christ into the world? You’re sure you wouldn’t be a little scared?

Well God had Eve tempted shortly after she was born (in fact she was so young that hadnt discovered sex yet!). At such a young age she had to deal with the ultra persuasive serpent. Its a no brainer, with or without original sin she was destined to be decieved.

As Kim said, Eve was made woman, not infant. And yet, Mary was made infant, not woman - what makes you think she wasn’t tempted to disobey her parents when she was little? She was born free of original sin, but she had free will.

Anyway, as I and others have already said - it’s not a competition.

 

[Genesis315]

Who’s more extraordinary? More accomplished? More faithful? And the overall deserving of greater honor? Who sacrificed the most for God?

1. Mary or Abraham?
2. Mary or Sarah?
3. Mary or Moses?
4. Mary or Ruth?
5. Mary or David?
6. Mary or Solomon?
7. Mary or Peter?
8. Mary or Stephen the martyr?
9. Mary or Paul?

IMO, Mary beats Sarah, David & Solomon. She’s of the same rank as Ruth & Peter. She loses to Paul. And she loses to Abraham & Moses BIG TIME!

(and hey, how come there are no honorary statues of Abraham & Moses in Catholic establishments? Cant these folks offer prayers/ intercede for catholics too? )

Yes, we can ask their intercession. We have stained glass of both in my parish. Likewise, whenever the Litany of the Saints is sung (like Easter vigil or ordinations), the OT saints are invoked and their intercession asked.

However, great accomplishments does not make one great in the eyes of God (the least will be greatest), but humble sanctity (which may or may not be accompanied by great works).

All of those sinned, except for Mary who’s whole life is summed up in two of her statements. “Behold the handmade of the Lord, be it done unto me according to thy word,” and, “do whatever He tells you.”

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

And why is it that only the new testament characters get the superstar treatment from the catholic church? tis not fair, i tell you.

Because they are witnesses to Jesus and the christian way of living.

Wipe that grin off your face and get a clue as to who founded the Catholic Church.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Oh what I meant was ‘every mother up on Jesus’ ancestral line’.

Mary did not really do anything extraordinary. Rather, everything was served to her on a silver platter. Born without original sin, therefore free from the everyday temptations that torments us all…which also means that she had no cravings for wealth & sexual desire. She was designed as a tool from the very beginning. And not someone who earned their way to the top…like the other bible superstars.

Non-sense. Nobody feels the pain of a child more than their mother. (I’m sure any mothers on these forums will agree with me.)

Therefore, nobody felt the pain of Jesus on the Cross more than Mary. To deny this is to deny the prediction given in Luke 2:35 - (Simeon said to Mary) “And sorrow, like a sharp sword, will break your own heart.”

To say that Mary is a “tool” is an insult to all mothers.

Mary is the personification of the Church. Mary is our Mother. Mary has delivered the fruit which saves us from the fruit that Eve delivered. “Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” (see Luke 1:42)

 

[blossom02]

Your list is missing the real superstar of the Bible. Every part of the bible is about Jesus.

I do understand why though. I just thought I would mention that to tease.

I vote for Mary also because she was so humble that she wasn’t asking to be noticed as the Queen and the important one.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… Did an ArchAngel ever label anyone but Mary as blessed? …

And don’t forget the angel greeted her with a royal calling; “Hail!” Surely, this would imply that Mary is above the angels. (See Luke 1:28.)

 

[valient_Lucy]

Who’s more extraordinary? More accomplished? More faithful? And the overall deserving of greater honor? Who sacrificed the most for God?

1. Mary or Abraham?
2. Mary or Sarah?
3. Mary or Moses?
4. Mary or Ruth?
5. Mary or David?
6. Mary or Solomon?
7. Mary or Peter?
8. Mary or Stephen the martyr?
9. Mary or Paul?

IMO, Mary beats Sarah, David & Solomon. She’s of the same rank as Ruth & Peter. She loses to Paul. And she loses to Abraham & Moses BIG TIME!

(and hey, how come there are no honorary statues of Abraham & Moses in Catholic establishments? Cant these folks offer prayers/ intercede for catholics too? )

But many who are first shall be last, and many who are last shall be first.

 

[bpbasilphx]

As we sing:

More honorable than the Cherubim,
And more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim,
Who without corruption gave birth to God the Word
And are truly Theotokos, we magnify you.

So what do you think?

 

[bpbasilphx]

IMO, Mary beats Sarah, David & Solomon. She’s of the same rank as Ruth & Peter. She loses to Paul. And she loses to Abraham & Moses BIG TIME!

Your opinion in this matter doesn’t count for much. The point is, God (Incarnate) was subject to Mary–but was never subject to Abraham, Paul, and Moses.

(and hey, how come there are no honorary statues of Abraham & Moses in Catholic establishments? Cant these folks offer prayers/ intercede for catholics too? )

Apparently you know nothing of the Eastern Catholic Churches where the righteous of the OT are publiclly venerated. Moses’ feast day (and he appears on icons) is 4 September (see the Roman Martyrology). And there’s a Chaldean Catholic Church in my city named for Abraham.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Before I forget–ever hear of the famous statue of Moses by Michaelangelo in Rome?

 

[LilyM]

Well God had Eve tempted shortly after she was born (in fact she was so young that hadnt discovered sex yet!). At such a young age she had to deal with the ultra persuasive serpent. Its a no brainer, with or without original sin she was destined to be decieved.

And Mary was a teenage virgin who made a point of not having discovered sex yet either. Eve had every advantage that Mary (who did NOT succumb to temptation) had, plus the added advantage that Eve, from her creation, unlike Mary, saw God face to face and talked to Him face to face, which Mary did not. In spite of which she managed to fall into sin, unlike Mary.

Point being Eve wasn’t destined to be deceived. If she HAD been so destined, then her temptation and fall wouldn’t have mattered, not to you or I or God, any more than a dog peeing on my lawn (as dogs invariably do) would matter. Inconvenient and bad, yes, Earth and history-shatteringly WRONG, no.

 

[ralphinal]

As far as stautues of Old Testement figures go, the Benedictine School in Cullman, AL, has statues of the O.T. guys over the part of the church behind the alter where the brothers sit. These include Moses, Abraham, and David. After the alter, the statues are all of Benedictine saints. So there.

As an aside, the statues were carved after WWII by a German POW. He carved all of the Benedictines in Nazi boots because he claimed that they were just as difficult to deal with as the SS, only without the threat of death.

 

[AgnosTheist]

As far as stautues of Old Testement figures go, the Benedictine School in Cullman, AL, has statues of the O.T. guys over the part of the church behind the alter where the brothers sit. These include Moses, Abraham, and David. After the alter, the statues are all of Benedictine saints. So there.

Ive never seen nor heard any catholic pray to those biblical forefathers. Have you? Ive seen and heard feasts held in honor of various saints, was there any for those forefathers?

 

[AgnosTheist]

I vote for Mary also because she was so humble that she wasn’t asking to be noticed as the Queen and the important one.

What bible character did? Nobody asked for special benefits.

 

[ralphinal]

Ive never seen nor heard any catholic pray to those biblical forefathers. Have you? Ive seen and heard feasts held in honor of various saints, was there any for those forefathers?

Yes, I have. The Latin rite does not have it as prevelent as some of the other rites. I think that the E.O. have feasts for them, and even refer to them as St. Moses, etc. I do have them listed in some litanies of the saints as well.

Behold this site. It has a couple of feast days listed. Here is another.