Comparing the Koran with the Bible

[elwill]

I appreciate your confusion. You are finally seeing the Christian trinity.

With the possible exception of John the Apostle, I don’t think anyone has ever understood the trinity – but doesn’t the Koran itself say that nobody understands Allah/God? Yes it does. If the Koran is correct when it says that God is beyond human understand, then we cannot complain that we don’t understand the trinity.

as long as i remember , quran just said that God is unique and nothing comparable to him , these beliefs is logic and understandable to everyone .

but trinity not mentioned in the bible and not understandable to anyone

 

[Reuben_J]

i want to know if our fellow christians here agrees with you in that ?
and which time was that ?

** Mt 16:16-20**

Simon Peter answered, “**You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” **

17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

 

[elwill]

is theire any other verses you depends on to proof trinity from the bible ?

 

[elwill]

yes offcourse , you refuted my claims
i’m happy you did

but i was seek to know more proofs to feel more convinced that trinity concept is understandable from the bible

is their any other verses refer to trinity in the bible ?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

our discussion is about if jesus claimed divinity or not in the bible , how can i participate in such discussion without quoting the bible (even if i have beliefs it’s corrupted) ?

Repeating a question that has been answered is still repeating a question even if you put it in bold.

This is something you should be really asking yourself. The title of the thread is “Comparing the Koran with the Bible,” and the topic of the divinity of Christ came up, but the problem is we’re dealing with a major presupposition on your part on account of your faith - something you admitted indirectly in another thread (which I quoted earlier) was simply blind faith. I think you know deep down that quoting a source you think is corrupted is nonsensical, especially as you didn’t even answer me regarding if you know any lawyer in a court case that used a witness while at the same time admitting he couldn’t be trusted.

In the relation between the Bible and the Quran, you and I are in different positions. I know the Quran is a false book, but I don’t have to quote it to prove my faith, and therefore remain consistent in my apologetics. You, on the other hand, because of the language of the Quran and Islamic beliefs regarding what came before, have to quote the Bible to prove Islamic beliefs - yet you then spin around and tell us that it’s corrupted. Therefore, if you want to quote the Bible, you have to first work out this major intellectual dishonesty which your apologetics is deep in. As I said before, even if you wanted to pretend no one knows this, you will see from the comments that everyone knows you are performing this, and therefore you are like the emperor continuing the parade naked.

 

[rinnie]

yes offcourse , you refuted my claims
i’m happy you did

but i was seek to know more proofs to feel more convinced that trinity concept is understandable from the bible

is their any other verses refer to trinity in the bible ?

elwill, here is something you have to remember. Now I am speaking for myself here okay. Now I am a Roman Catholic. Now I believe when Jesus said to Peter that you have the keys to the kingdom. Now not to de-rail the Trinity, but my point is we do not HAVE to use the bible. Do you understand what I am saying. Not that it is NOT the true word of God, IT IS. But the bible itself tells you it is NOT the pillar of all truth THE CHURCH IS.

Now Jesus left us the Church, not the scripture. He left us HUMAN BEINGS to TEACH and PREACH his word. And all we need to know IS NOT in the bible. The bible even tells you that.

So what I am saying is even if people could change scripture, which they could, it would not matter. Because Jesus said he is sending the ADVOCATE the HOLY SPIRIT to lead us to ALL TRUTH. That is where the Trinity comes back into play. The Church never used the bible. Does not need it. There was no bible back then The Holy Spirit will GIVE YOU THE WORDS.

Now the Holy Spirit is more powerful because without the Holy Spirit you could not even understand scripture.

See elwill I MYSELF cannot define scripture to you. Or you to I. We do not have the gift of the Holy Spirit to do so. It had to be passed on by the LAYING OF HANDS.

That is how we KNOW that it came from God.

Now here is something you will see in scripture, in time. If you really study it. If you want the real definition of scripture you will see scripture cannot contradict scripture. It can’t. If it does you do not understand it. Simply because God does not lie, which I am sure you agree with me there.

But God revealed himself in 3 ways. Through the Father, through the Son, and through the Holy Spirit.

In the O.T it was by the Father, in the N.T it was by the Son. Even in your scripture you see it written the WORD BECAME FLESH. Now the WORD was GOD. You have to admit that. Then the WORD became FLESH. That means GOD became flesh. Jesus Christ. Now when Jesus left he said I will not LEAVE you orphans. I am sending the ADVOCATE the HOLY SPIRIT to guide you to all truth. No one can guide us to all truth except GOD. So now we are led by God by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[elwill]

elwill, here is something you have to remember. Now I am speaking for myself here okay. Now I am a Roman Catholic. Now I believe when Jesus said to Peter that you have the keys to the kingdom. Now not to de-rail the Trinity, but my point is we do not HAVE to use the bible. Do you understand what I am saying. Not that it is NOT the true word of God, IT IS. But the bible itself tells you it is NOT the pillar of all truth THE CHURCH IS.

Now Jesus left us the Church, not the scripture. He left us HUMAN BEINGS to TEACH and PREACH his word. And all we need to know IS NOT in the bible. The bible even tells you that.

So what I am saying is even if people could change scripture, which they could, it would not matter. Because Jesus said he is sending the ADVOCATE the HOLY SPIRIT to lead us to ALL TRUTH. That is where the Trinity comes back into play. The Church never used the bible. Does not need it. There was no bible back then The Holy Spirit will GIVE YOU THE WORDS.

Now the Holy Spirit is more powerful because without the Holy Spirit you could not even understand scripture.

See elwill I MYSELF cannot define scripture to you. Or you to I. We do not have the gift of the Holy Spirit to do so. It had to be passed on by the LAYING OF HANDS.

That is how we KNOW that it came from God.

Now here is something you will see in scripture, in time. If you really study it. If you want the real definition of scripture you will see scripture cannot contradict scripture. It can’t. If it does you do not understand it. Simply because God does not lie, which I am sure you agree with me there.

But God revealed himself in 3 ways. Through the Father, through the Son, and through the Holy Spirit.

In the O.T it was by the Father, in the N.T it was by the Son. Even in your scripture you see it written the WORD BECAME FLESH. Now the WORD was GOD. You have to admit that. Then the WORD became FLESH. That means GOD became flesh. Jesus Christ. Now when Jesus left he said I will not LEAVE you orphans. I am sending the ADVOCATE the HOLY SPIRIT to guide you to all truth. No one can guide us to all truth except GOD. So now we are led by God by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

somehow ,i used to hear the same answer for un_answered questions

thank you for your time , i really appreciate your effort
may be in the second time , the holy ghost will enter inside me . hence may be i will understand

i need your prayer guys , i think my mind and my intellegent are useless in such issues

 

[rinnie]

Also you will not find the word Trinity in the bible. The word Trinity came from the Church which was revealed to us by Jesus. You must be baptised in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (TRINITY).

Now No one fully understands the Trinity. So don’t let anyone full you there. But it is by faith that it comes slowly to us. So don’t even try to fully understand what I am telling you now. Just Please remember what I am saying here.

It is impossible to understand the mystery of Jesus without faith in the Trinity.

Now here is the revelation of the Trinity.

Remember it began WITH Christ. He told us he is Gods son. Now keep this in your mind all week. Jesus teaches us God is NOT ONLY the CREATOR of the Universe, but also the Father of the ETERNALLY BEGOTTON SON. who became ONE with us as the GOD-MAN Jesus Christ. That is revealed in Matt11;27. Now think about this.

Now Jesus is Gods SON and his revelation to us is that the great name of God is Father.
Think about this, Jesus told us this!!

Now Jesus revealed to us also that the Son of God took flesh, that he renewed the world through the grace of the Holy Spirit and again that he was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

Now think about this God is the Word, and Jesus is the Word made flesh, and the word made flesh Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. Now we could never believe that Jesus is the Son of God and True God sent by the Father is we did not believe in the plurality of the persons in ONE GOD.

Now just think about his for a moment. Now in the RCC we worship ONE GOD in the Trinity, and the Trinity in UNITY. Now lets stop there in unity? Yes. The Father is a distinct PERSON but the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have ONE DIVINITY, EQUAL GLORY and Co-Eternal majesty.

The Trinity was not revealed with full clarity in the beginning of Gods revelation to us. Think about it even the Apostles did not fully grasp this at first. (remember the scripture I gave you of Philip?). Now think about this.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

somehow ,i used to hear the same answer for un_answered questions

thank you for your time , i really appreciate your effort
may be in the second time , the holy ghost will enter inside me . hence may be i will understand

i need your prayer guys , i think my mind and my intellegent are useless in such issues

Sarcasm is the greatest betrayer of ignorance.

 

[rinnie]

somehow ,i used to hear the same answer for un_answered questions

thank you for your time , i really appreciate your effort
may be in the second time , the holy ghost will enter inside me . hence may be i will understand

i need your prayer guys , i think my mind and my intellegent are useless in such issues

Trust me my friend, it will come. But you have to remember there are thousands of Christians who can’t explain it. It will take years. And please understand it is so hard to understand. But everyday something will begin to make sense to you, then you will think you figured it out, then you won’t. It will come from you deep faith in God though. But in time. I will continue to pray for you, and you pray for me that maybe somehow I can share in some small way what has been revealed to me. But remember it took me 48 years of study to get it. But as long as you Trust God it will come.

 

[dolphinlove]

somehow ,i used to hear the same answer for un_answered questions

thank you for your time , i really appreciate your effort
may be in the second time , the holy ghost will enter inside me . hence may be i will understand

i need your prayer guys , i think my mind and my intellegent are useless in such issues

The problem is you are, as a Muslim, not allowed to question the quran. As a Catholic, we r allowed to question, and with those questions answered, deepens my faith. When you just go along blindly for the ride and just have to accept ‘because Allah or muhammad said so’, you become like a machine who won’t accept any other explanation, if you open your mind to the possibilities, you might learn the truth rather than relying on your current tactics.

 

[gmcbroom]

I must ask Elwill. Are you asking us to compare the Bible to the Koran? Or are you comparing them. I must give you kudos if your the one doing the comparing for I know your not really supposed to read the Bible if your a Muslim. Don’t get me wrong its a free country and you can do as you wish but the more zealous of the muslim world would probably frown at it. So I honor your courage in reading it. As I don’t speak or read arabic I could not read the Koran as you say it is meant to be. I did read a translation of it and must say that its interesting. I will say its unique. It does stand as a strong religion, and the fact that it glorifies God is extremely important. However, as I’m a Christian it disturbs me. I do find some parallels in the Koran and the Old Testament and that is part of the Bible. Both dealt with a religious life and both were somewhat cruel. However, this is key, Elwill, the New Testament which was prophesied by the Old Testament, is also confirmed by the Old Testament writings. That is why it’s included in the Bible. The Koran though awe inspiring I feel doesn’t meet the same test that the New Testament does. In the Old testament and Koran violence is meted out easily almost mercilessly. But God is love and he loved us so much he sent his only begotten son to be the perfect sacrifice to save us all. I realize to muslims Jesus is nothing more than a prophet. But to Christians Jesus is Lord and God and to us he is the one who will come to judge the living and the dead not Mohammed. Because of this difference in our religions ie Islam and Christianity neither one can truly understand the other. We can only agree to disagree. To us Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. I Don’t expect you to understand this Elwill, just accept that it is what Christians believe. As for you comparing certain passages in the Bible and Koran you did a decent job in pulling out some passages, yet each that you cited were also explained from the Christian perspective here. I realize this didn’t meet you expectations but that can’t be helped. You either believe it or you don’t. But there is one thing you can do. Pray on it. God Bless you Elwill.

 

[elwill]

I must ask Elwill. Are you asking us to compare the Bible to the Koran? Or are you comparing them. I must give you kudos if your the one doing the comparing for I know your not really supposed to read the Bible if your a Muslim. Don’t get me wrong its a free country and you can do as you wish but the more zealous of the muslim world would probably frown at it. So I honor your courage in reading it. As I don’t speak or read arabic I could not read the Koran as you say it is meant to be. I did read a translation of it and must say that its interesting. I will say its unique. It does stand as a strong religion, and the fact that it glorifies God is extremely important. However, as I’m a Christian it disturbs me. I do find some parallels in the Koran and the Old Testament and that is part of the Bible. Both dealt with a religious life and both were somewhat cruel. However, this is key, Elwill, the New Testament which was prophesied by the Old Testament, is also confirmed by the Old Testament writings. That is why it’s included in the Bible. The Koran though awe inspiring I feel doesn’t meet the same test that the New Testament does. In the Old testament and Koran violence is meted out easily almost mercilessly. But God is love and he loved us so much he sent his only begotten son to be the perfect sacrifice to save us all. I realize to muslims Jesus is nothing more than a prophet. But to Christians Jesus is Lord and God and to us he is the one who will come to judge the living and the dead not Mohammed. Because of this difference in our religions ie Islam and Christianity neither one can truly understand the other. We can only agree to disagree. To us Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. I Don’t expect you to understand this Elwill, just accept that it is what Christians believe. As for you comparing certain passages in the Bible and Koran you did a decent job in pulling out some passages, yet each that you cited were also explained from the Christian perspective here. I realize this didn’t meet you expectations but that can’t be helped. You either believe it or you don’t. But there is one thing you can do. Pray on it. God Bless you Elwill.

actually not , i’m not the one who comparing bible with quran , i participated in this thread lately when other questions and other discussions are raised up
it was about if jesus realy calimed divinity or not on the bible ?

i have to thanks everyone answered my questions
i agree with you that i don’t have to believe it , it’s enough to know it and accept what christians believe
i have no problems with what you request from me

but actually , i have one question , just one question which not answered yet ( only Rinnie did ) and i’m not sure if other christians agrees with him , no one of them comment on his respond although i emphasized that i need to know if his answer is in agreement with all my debaters or not )

 

[scottm]

but actually , i have one question , just one question which not answered yet ( only Rinnie did ) and i’m not sure if other christians agrees with him , no one of them comment on his respond although i emphasized that i need to know if his answer is in agreement with all my debaters or not )

This one?

Quote:
I told you quite simply that Jesus did not want anyone to know he was the Truly Man and Truly God until the time came. He tells you why! In the scriptures as I quoted to you.

Ya, that’s probably right. Sometimes Jesus told people to be quite so as to avoid a riotous scene. Other times he told people to be quiet because “it wasn’t yet his time,” meaning it wasn’t the right time yet to go to the cross, and if he said, “I’m God” the Jewish leaders would try to arrest and kill him for the blasphemy. I think that’s what Rinnie was talking about.

 

[elwill]

This one?

Quote:
I told you quite simply that Jesus did not want anyone to know he was the Truly Man and Truly God until the time came. He tells you why! In the scriptures as I quoted to you.

Ya, that’s probably right. Sometimes Jesus told people to be quite so as to avoid a riotous scene. Other times he told people to be quiet because “it wasn’t yet his time,” meaning it wasn’t the right time yet to go to the cross, and if he said, “I’m God” the Jewish leaders would try to arrest and kill him for the blasphemy. I think that’s what Rinnie was talking about.

mmmmmmm
in mathew 26
39And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.”

was this prayer happened after or before his claiming for divinity ?

 

[anjoh66]

mmmmmmm
in mathew 26
39And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.”

was this prayer happened after or before his claiming for divinity ?

Elwill!
You must understand that Jesus meanwhile troding this world was 100% human, but he was also 100% God.

He was concieved by the Holy Spirit, from there comes his divinity, and was born by the Virgin Mary from whom came his humanity, his body and his blood.

This prayer in Getsemane, is a wonderful piece from God, teaching humans how they should behave, and even more important it gives a clear example that it is perfectly alright for a person to be afraid of something but still it is most important to submit to the will of God.

The same thing happened on the cross, when Jesus questions the father why He has forsaken him.

After all this what does Jesus do?
Same as in Getsemane, he testifies that all has been fullfilled and then he says humbly: Father, into thine hands do i commit my spirit.

Just as we should do, even if we question God why he has forsaken us still in the end we commit our spirits in His hand and accept the will of God, that is surely not easy.

We can say that indirectly Jesus claimed divinity before the crucifixion but after his resurrection it is clear:

Matt:28
[18] And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.
[19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
[20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

([18] “All power”… See here the warrant and commission of the apostles and their successors, the bishops and pastors of Christ’s church. He received from his Father all power in heaven and in earth: and in virtue of this power, he sends them (even as his Father sent him, St. John 20. 21) to teach and disciple, not one, but all nations; and instruct them in all truths: and that he may assist them effectually in the execution of this commission, he promises to be with them, not for three or four hundred years only, but all days, even to the consummation of the world. How then could the Catholic Church ever go astray; having always with her pastors, as is here promised, Christ himself, who is the way, the truth, and the life. St. John 14.)

 

[scottm]

mmmmmmm
in mathew 26
39And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.”

was this prayer happened after or before his claiming for divinity ?

Both, actually. He affirmed his divinity more than once.

 

[rinnie]

mmmmmmm
in mathew 26
39And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.”

was this prayer happened after or before his claiming for divinity ?

Yes he did my dear, And do you know why. Simple Very Simple. Jesus was showing us they he was truly God and Truly HUMAN. He had to show us that he also experienced human fears just like us. Guess what else happened his human fear was so real, that not only did he say those words, his sweat turned into BLOOD!!

Here is another one, My God My God why have you forsaken me. Then go and read psalms. He was not talking to God, it was his last effort to show the jews he was who he said he was. When he said My God My God why have you forsaken me they knew then that he was indeed who he said he was. That is the first line of Psalms. It is the O.T it predicted every single thing they did to him. To the T!! Who knew scripture better then the Jews.

 

[anjoh66]

What a wonderful promise this is!!!

Has anyone ever promised you something like that?

That he will be with you always.

Muhammad didnt do it, nor Buddha or even Moses or any other prophet, of course they didnt because they couldnt, nobody could keep such a promise.

Only Jesus has ever made such a promise and he explained how, as the Father was with Jesus, and through him with us, Jesus is now with us through the Holy Spirit.

Jesus made another wonderful promise, he promised the Holy Spirit to anyone who ask for it sincerelly and what was the condition? No condition, you just have to ask and it will be given to you.

Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door will be open to you.

The Holy Spirit is here to abide with us forever and through the Spirit also the Father and the Son since these three are inseparable.

 

[rinnie]

Both, actually. He affirmed his divinity more than once.

I would say before though, would you not agree. Especially when they asked him point blank if he was God and he said I AM!! Before Abraham I AM!!