Comparing the Koran with the Bible

[sedonaman]

Why would Allah tell mohammad to verify his profithood by going to the scriptures of Jews & Christians when Allah knew them to be corrupted? …

He was trying to convert the Christians and Jews around him at the time. What better way than to appeal to scriptures they already accepted? Never mind his argument contained logical flaws not recognized by the average person of the time.

 

[jakasaki]

He was trying to convert the Christians and Jews around him at the time. What better way than to appeal to scriptures they already accepted? Never mind his argument contained logical flaws not recognized by the average person of the time.

The Jews of Arabia regected him because they knew their scripture.

Deuteronomy 13

1If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder,

2and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,”

3you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.

4It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.

5That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

The Jews of Arabia regected him because they knew their scripture.

Deuteronomy 13

1If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder,

2and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,”

3you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.

4It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.

5That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

 

[autdrew]

double

 

[elwill]

Actually, the bigger problem is, even after people have pointed a great intellectual dishonesty in your debate tactic, you have the gall to do it again. I can only assume you didn’t even read my post.

dishonesty becuase of what ? because i’m asking questions about verses you completly ignored in your bible ?

why i’m not allowed to question the bible unless i’m christian ?
why you request from me to believe in the bible first , then you can answer my questions about it ? ( then tell me that it’s me who is dishonest )

our discussion is about if jesus claimed divinity or not , how can i participate in such discussion without quoting the bible (even if i have beliefs it’s corrupted) ?

actually your request is impossible to be accepted , you can simply ignore my questions because simply i will not ever confirm that bible not corrupted

 

[autdrew]

If Christians changed/corrupted the Bible in order to remove any references to mohommad, as I have heard it said, and muslims do not think Jesus claims to be God in the Bible, wouldnt it make more sense for them to have changed/corrupted the bible to have Jesus say “I am God”? I mean, if you are going to do one, might as well do them all right?

Elwill,
I think the dishonest part is that you are trying to use “corrupted” scriptures to say that WE are wrong. There doesnt seem to be universal agreement on what muslims find true & untrue in the Bible. So, it doesnt seem logical to point to a corruption and say "See, it doesnt say what you think it says"If you believe it to be corrupted, how can it be evidence?

But again, I ask, why would Allah send mohammad to the Jewish & Christian scriptures if he knew they were corrupted? It just doesnt make sense for him to do that, it only caused enmity between them because mohammad wasnt in there. Since mohammad was a self proclaimed profit & the Jews & christians are told to test profits to see if they are from God, it doesnt make sense for Allah to send him there for proof. Since he wasnt in there, the Jews & Christians were right to reject him, in compliance with the instructions they had been given by God.Christians in particular, had had 600 plus yrs of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit & that was the understanding they received from Jesus. When he told them he would send someone, the advocate, they received the Holy Spirit & they BELIEVED that is what his message & gift were for 600 plus years. They had to reject him because, to them, he was a false profit. If today, someone came to the muslim world and insisted that they had a new revelation from God, they were the final final profit, check the koran & you will find him, no? well koran is wrong, god sent him! You would have to reject him as a false prophet right? Of course you would, just as the Jews & Christians did.

 

[sedonaman]

The Jews of Arabia regected him because they knew their scripture.

…

That’s true, but my point is they weren’t skilled enough in logic to see the fallacy of Islam.

 

[marigal]

dishonesty becuase of what ? because i’m asking questions about verses you completly ignored in your bible ?

why i’m not allowed to question the bible unless i’m christian ?
why you request from me to believe in the bible first , then you can answer my questions about it ? ( then tell me that it’s me who is dishonest )

our discussion is about if jesus claimed divinity or not , how can i participate in such discussion without quoting the bible (even if i have beliefs it’s corrupted) ?

actually your request is impossible to be accepted , you can simply ignore my questions because simply i will not ever confirm that bible not corrupted

When you read the Bible in its completeness, without taking verses out of context, when you open your mind and your heart to be enlightened by the Holy Spirit, when you sincerely search for the truth, you will humble yourself and begin to see and understand things in a different way. The Scriptures are not subject to individual interpretation. Did you know that he Bible put it together in the 3rd Century, by the primitive Christian Church of Jesus Christ? That is why we should accept the Church’s interpretation and teachings. The Magisterium of the Church is presented to us to guide our limited knowledge, and our inclination to think that we know more than the most learned and holy people who for 2,000 years have devoted themselves to study it.

Having said this, consider the following: Is it possible for any human being to be without sin from the moment of birth to the moment of death? We are ALL sinners. Only of Jesus, and of his mother Mary, who was preserved from sin because she was chosen to be the Mother of God incarnate, could be said this. Of nobody else. Go back and read about any prophet, any reformer, any pope, saint, or anyone you pick, including, of course, Muhammad, and you will confirm it. Moreover, Jesus himself said:

John 10:32-33 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God.”

Notice that the Jews could not find any fault or wrong doing in Jesus, except that they thought to be blasphemy what was indeed the TRUTH! Jesus, the Son of God, was the same, in essence, as His Father.

God bless you! +

 

[marigal]

dishonesty becuase of what ? because i’m asking questions about verses you completly ignored in your bible ?

why i’m not allowed to question the bible unless i’m Christian ?
why you request from me to believe in the bible first , then you can answer my questions about it ? ( then tell me that it’s me who is dishonest )

our discussion is about if Jesus claimed divinity or not , how can i participate in such discussion without quoting the bible (even if i have beliefs it’s corrupted) ?

actually your request is impossible to be accepted , you can simply ignore my questions because simply i will not ever confirm that bible not corrupted

When you read the Bible in its completeness, without taking verses out of context, when you open your mind and your heart to be enlightened by the Holy Spirit, when you sincerely search for the truth, you will humble yourself and begin to see and understand things in a different way. The Scriptures are not subject to individual interpretation. Did you know that he Bible put it together in the 3rd Century, by the primitive Christian Church of Jesus Christ? That is why we should accept the Church’s interpretation and teachings. The Magisterium of the Church is presented to us to guide our limited knowledge, and our inclination to think that we know more than the most learned and holy people who for 2,000 years have devoted themselves to study it.

Having said this, consider the following: Is it possible for any human being to be without sin from the moment of birth to the moment of death? We are ALL sinners. Only of Jesus, and of his mother Mary, who was preserved from sin because she was chosen to be the Mother of God incarnate, could be said this. Of nobody else. Go back and read about any prophet, any reformer, any pope, saint, or anyone you pick, including, of course, Muhammad, and you will confirm it. Moreover, Jesus himself said:

John 10:32-33 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God.”

Notice that the Jews could not find any fault or wrong doing in Jesus, except that they thought to be blasphemy what was indeed the TRUTH! Jesus, the Son of God, was the same, in essence, as His Father.

God bless you! +

 

[marigal]

dishonesty becuase of what ? because i’m asking questions about verses you completly ignored in your bible ?

why i’m not allowed to question the bible unless i’m Christian ?
why you request from me to believe in the bible first , then you can answer my questions about it ? ( then tell me that it’s me who is dishonest )

our discussion is about if Jesus claimed divinity or not , how can i participate in such discussion without quoting the bible (even if i have beliefs it’s corrupted) ?

actually your request is impossible to be accepted , you can simply ignore my questions because simply i will not ever confirm that bible not corrupted

When you read the Bible in its completeness, without taking verses out of context, when you open your mind and your heart to be enlightened by the Holy Spirit, when you sincerely search for the truth, you will humble yourself and begin to see and understand things in a different way. The Scriptures are not subject to individual interpretation. The Bible is a Catholic Book. The Church of Jesus Christ put it together in the 3rd Century, and that is why we should accept the Church’s interpretation and teachings. The Magisterium of the Church is presented to us to guide our limited knowledge, and our inclination to think that we know more than the most learned and holy people who for 2,000 years have devoted themselves to study it.

Having said this, consider the following: Is it possible for any human being to be without sin from the moment of birth to the moment of death? We are ALL sinners. Only of Jesus, and of his mother Mary, who was preserved from sin because she was chosen to be the Mother of God incarnate, could be said this. Of nobody else. Go back and read about any prophet, any reformer, any pope, saint, or anyone you pick, including, of course, Muhammad, and you will confirm it. Moreover, Jesus himself said:

John 10:32-33 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God.”

Notice that the Jews could not find any fault or wrong doing in Jesus, except that they took to be blasphemy what was indeed the TRUTH! Jesus, the Son of God, was the same, in essence, as His Father.

May God bless you. +

 

[elwill]

Good. Keep all of those verses. Keep them. Add to them the following list. I’ll say again: Keep all of those verses that you Google-searched, and add to them the following verses. Then reconcile all of them as a single group. You have to reconcile all of them, not just some of them, not just your Google-searched subset. All of them.

When you do that you’ll have the trinity of the Nicene Creed, which is utterly different than the trinity condemned in the Koran.

Matthew 14:33
contrast this worship with Acts 10:25-26, Revelation 22:8-9, and Deuteronomy 5:8-9

Matthew 26:64-66
the audience understood this as a claim of deity in violation of Deuteronomy 5:6-7

Matthew 28:18
Jesus claims to have the authority of the God of heaven

Mark 2:5-12
Jesus takes for himself a privilege and power that is reserved to God alone

Luke 24:52
contrast this worship with Deuteronomy 5:6-9

John 1:1-14
Compare this to Genesis 1-2. Jesus is the God that created the universe.

John 2:19-21
Jesus claimed to rise from the dead under his own power. Contrast this with 1 Kings 17:17-24, 2 Kings 4:32-37, and Acts 9:32-42, where men of God raised the dead not by their power but by God’s power.

John 7:37-38 and 8:12
In the context of the Festival of Booths (verse 7:2) claims to be the source of “living water” and the “light of the world” are naked assertions of deity.

John 8:48-59
Jesus claims to be God’s glory, and he claims for himself the name by which Moses knew God

John 10:30-33
“The Father and I are one” [Greek, “one thing”] was understood by the audience as a claim to be the God of the Old Testament in violation of Deuteronomy 5:6-7.

John 10:38
Jesus and the Father are one, not two

John 14:8-11
Jesus and the Father are one, not two

John 20:28
contrast this with Deuteronomy 5:6-9

Acts 4:12
If Noah, Abraham, Jonah, and Moses read this, they would conclude that Jesus is their God.

2 Corinthians 4:4
contrast this “image of God” language with Deuteronomy 5:8-9

Philippians 2:6-11
contrast this “being in very nature God” and “every knee shall bow” with Deuteronomy 5:6-9

Colossians 1:19 and 2:9
“fullness of the deity” implies that God did not hold back, which in turn implies that Jesus is God

Hebrews 1:1-14
creator, exact representation of God, radiance of God’s glory, sustainer, imprint of God’s very being, sits on the throne, accepts the worship of God’s angels, controls God’s angels, eternal – all of these imply that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament

James 2:19
there is only one God, not two

1 John 2:2
that Jesus died for the whole world implies that he is more than human, more than a prophet

1 John 2:13
existing from eternity past implies self-creation, a characteristic reserved to God alone

1 John 5:12 & 20
that Jesus is eternal life implies self-creation, a characteristic reserved to God alone

1 John 5:20
“Jesus is the true God”

i appereciate your post , but really that’s not clear for me , it like playing puzzles to conclude with some way or another that he claimed divinity

but i will not argue about your list again , for the sake of discussion i will assume that these verses refere to divinity of jesus
my question is , if you believe in all the bible , not just part of it

then you have to confess that jesus your God had a God
jesus your God , prayed to God
jesus your God , have God greater than himself
jesus your God , can do nothing of himself
jesus your God , fell on his face and prayed to his God

how can you deal with these verses , you can’t simply ignore them and just focus on your list , because these verses exists in your bible which you believe it’s not corrupted , which means that according to your beliefs jesus did and said these things
do you think that by these words about himself and by these acts he did toward his father was clearly means to tell them " i’m God "

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

dishonesty becuase of what ? because i’m asking questions about verses you completly ignored in your bible ?

why i’m not allowed to question the bible unless i’m christian ?
why you request from me to believe in the bible first , then you can answer my questions about it ? ( then tell me that it’s me who is dishonest )

our discussion is about if jesus claimed divinity or not , how can i participate in such discussion without quoting the bible (even if i have beliefs it’s corrupted) ?

actually your request is impossible to be accepted , you can simply ignore my questions because simply i will not ever confirm that bible not corrupted

Elwill, with all due respect, the point of why it is dishonest has been explained to you so ad nauseum and in detail (and not only here but in previous debates) that in your claiming to not understand our point, I can only assume you’re either being completely dishonest or you bare a completely irrational mind.

As we said, you are attempting to prove Islam by the Bible. You have to because Islam and the Quran claims to be in line with what came before. The problem is, ultimately, what you believe is contradicted within the Bible, which I showed in my previous post in an argument-chain which you not only ran out of, but have not been able to adequately address. Therefore, you have to claim that the text was corrupted, but therein lies your bigger problem: you’re trying to use what you believe is untrustworthy as something to be trusted.

The fact is, only one person is “ignoring” Bible verses, because he has to, because the minute Christians look at the Bible in toto rather than what the lens of the Quran tells someone to see, the Christian view becomes very plain. Not only that, but a person claims the Bible is the inspired word of God and yet at the same time claims it is corrupt. That is fallacious logic, it is intellectual dishonesty, and the only person guilty of committing that over and over again has been you, elwill.

 

[elwill]

Good. Keep all of those verses. Keep them. Add to them the following list. I’ll say again: Keep all of those verses that you Google-searched, and add to them the following verses. Then reconcile all of them as a single group. You have to reconcile all of them, not just some of them, not just your Google-searched subset. All of them.

When you do that you’ll have the trinity of the Nicene Creed, which is utterly different than the trinity condemned in the Koran.

Matthew 14:33
contrast this worship with Acts 10:25-26, Revelation 22:8-9, and Deuteronomy 5:8-9

Matthew 26:64-66
the audience understood this as a claim of deity in violation of Deuteronomy 5:6-7

Matthew 28:18
Jesus claims to have the authority of the God of heaven

Mark 2:5-12
Jesus takes for himself a privilege and power that is reserved to God alone

Luke 24:52
contrast this worship with Deuteronomy 5:6-9

John 1:1-14
Compare this to Genesis 1-2. Jesus is the God that created the universe.

John 2:19-21
Jesus claimed to rise from the dead under his own power. Contrast this with 1 Kings 17:17-24, 2 Kings 4:32-37, and Acts 9:32-42, where men of God raised the dead not by their power but by God’s power.

John 7:37-38 and 8:12
In the context of the Festival of Booths (verse 7:2) claims to be the source of “living water” and the “light of the world” are naked assertions of deity.

John 8:48-59
Jesus claims to be God’s glory, and he claims for himself the name by which Moses knew God

John 10:30-33
“The Father and I are one” [Greek, “one thing”] was understood by the audience as a claim to be the God of the Old Testament in violation of Deuteronomy 5:6-7.

John 10:38
Jesus and the Father are one, not two

John 14:8-11
Jesus and the Father are one, not two

John 20:28
contrast this with Deuteronomy 5:6-9

Acts 4:12
If Noah, Abraham, Jonah, and Moses read this, they would conclude that Jesus is their God.

2 Corinthians 4:4
contrast this “image of God” language with Deuteronomy 5:8-9

Philippians 2:6-11
contrast this “being in very nature God” and “every knee shall bow” with Deuteronomy 5:6-9

Colossians 1:19 and 2:9
“fullness of the deity” implies that God did not hold back, which in turn implies that Jesus is God

Hebrews 1:1-14
creator, exact representation of God, radiance of God’s glory, sustainer, imprint of God’s very being, sits on the throne, accepts the worship of God’s angels, controls God’s angels, eternal – all of these imply that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament

James 2:19
there is only one God, not two

1 John 2:2
that Jesus died for the whole world implies that he is more than human, more than a prophet

1 John 2:13
existing from eternity past implies self-creation, a characteristic reserved to God alone

1 John 5:12 & 20
that Jesus is eternal life implies self-creation, a characteristic reserved to God alone

1 John 5:20
“Jesus is the true God”

you simply gave me a list which supposed to be proofs that jesus is God
okey i got it , my second question

is your God jesus , have a God
is youe God jesus worshiped his God
is your God jesus have a God greater than himself
is your God jesus prayed to his God
is you God jesus can do nothing of his own initiative
is your God jesus felled in his face and prayed to his God

my discussion is simply like that
you people believe that jesus is God , not because he said i’'m God , rather because he said things about himself which you conclude from it that he is God
he is sinless , he is the resuurection and the life , he is the light , he is the bread of life , he did some miracles which merely man can’t do it by his own

that’s okey
but i see that jesus isn’t God because of some of his words and acts which he did which made me conclude that he denied the divinity from himself
he have God , prayed to God , can do nothing without his permession , God sent him … etc

my beliefs in the bible that it’s corrupted isn’t the problem
your beliefs that bible is truthfull book is the problem , because you need to find for yourselfs an answers about the second half from what he said about himself

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

OK, for some reason I can’t see the newer posts.

 

[rinnie]

dishonesty becuase of what ? because i’m asking questions about verses you completly ignored in your bible ?

why i’m not allowed to question the bible unless i’m christian ?
why you request from me to believe in the bible first , then you can answer my questions about it ? ( then tell me that it’s me who is dishonest )

our discussion is about if jesus claimed divinity or not , how can i participate in such discussion without quoting the bible (even if i have beliefs it’s corrupted) ?

actually your request is impossible to be accepted , you can simply ignore my questions because simply i will not ever confirm that bible not corrupted

I think you keep missing his point elwill.

We never deny the scriptures. We are explaining them to you the way that the Apostles taught them. It was passed down to the Church from generation to generation.

But here is the big problem. You are taught to believe them, but then you do not understand them. We are answering your questions, but you refuse to accept what we are telling you. I told you quite simply that Jesus did not want anyone to know he was the Truly Man and Truly God until the time came. He tells you why! In the scriptures as I quoted to you.

Why would Jesus say he would glorify God and after his resurrection from the dead he would be glorified. Simple there is only one God that can be glorified. That proves the divinity. You have to read the scriptures in context before you can understand them. You simply continue to take them out of context and do as Muhammad does and try to decide for yourself what they mean. We call that SS. That is why you as Muhammad have the same problem with Christians that Muhammad did with us and the Jews. We know our scripture and understand it.

The Qur’an speaks again as I said quite highly of the scripture and says you are to believe them. How is that possible if you claim they are corrupted.

Remember (4:I35/136) Remember that in your teachings? Whoever disbelieves is in great error.

The scripture seemed to be fine at first to Muhammad, until the Medinan Jews refused to follow Muhammad, the Qur’an gave the order to change the kibla, then the Muslims turned to the Ka’ba at Mecca in prayer.

Lets face it all was fine and dandy until Muhammad was calling upon the “people of the book” to believe and to follow him. They didn’t. Simply because they KNEW their scriptures and argued that their scripture did not announce the comming of the Ababian Prophet. They like us are not going to follow a false prophet. (you are not going to make scripture say something it does not) No matter how angry you get, or how many are killed we will not deny the word of God.

These Jews had the Torah in their possession. It all came in the interpretation of the text of the Torah and soon the Muslims could preceed questioning the correctness of the text saying forgeries. (What else could he do, he had no answer to them)

But here is a big fat problem. How could the Qur’an blame some Jews not living conformity to the text they read if that text was not regarded as correct???

This is what we once again have a problem with do we not?? And the same problem today that has never been solved. You are not going to teach a Christian and Jew the scriptures that are the true word of God. Especially when you do not understand them yourself which you continue to display.

 

[Tech_Admin]

Testing

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Ah there we go, I can see the comments again.

my beliefs in the bible that it’s corrupted isn’t the problem
your beliefs that bible is truthfull book is the problem , because you need to find for yourselfs an answers about the second half from what he said about himself

Actually, that IS the problem. You are attempting, again, to quote from the Bible to prove the Islamic viewpoint. If you cannot admit that it is uncorrupted, then you have no point at all to make. In order to use something as your evidence, you have to believe it’s reliable. Can you name me one lawyer who used a star witness in an important court case while at the same time admitting to the press that he knew the witness was a liar and not to be trusted? No sane lawyer would do this. Likewise, no sane theologian would claim a previous revelation was corrupted to the point of being unusable, then use that same revelation to prove his point. He would either be insane or incredibly stupid.

You say, “But Jesus said this and that!” All those concerns have already been addressed, if not here then in other threads. Repeating an argument is not demonstrating an argument. My friend, the reason we are having this conversation, again, is because you follow a false religion that demands you follow blind faith and forces you to lie to uphold that faith. That is why we are having this conversation.When you continue your intellectual dishonesty even after everyone has pointed it out to you, you are like the emperor with his new clothes, and despite the fact everyone has called you out for being naked and are now laughing at you, you continue marching on to finish the parade.

 

[scottm]

okey i got it , my second question

is your God jesus , have a God
is youe God jesus worshiped his God
is your God jesus have a God greater than himself
is your God jesus prayed to his God
is you God jesus can do nothing of his own initiative
is your God jesus felled in his face and prayed to his God

my discussion is simply like that
you people believe that jesus is God , not because he said i’'m God , rather because he said things about himself which you conclude from it that he is God
he is sinless , he is the resuurection and the life , he is the light , he is the bread of life , he did some miracles which merely man can’t do it by his own

that’s okey
but i see that jesus isn’t God because of some of his words and acts which he did which made me conclude that he denied the divinity from himself
he have God , prayed to God , can do nothing without his permession , God sent him … etc

I appreciate your confusion. You are finally seeing the Christian trinity.

With the possible exception of John the Apostle, I don’t think anyone has ever understood the trinity – but doesn’t the Koran itself say that nobody understands Allah/God? Yes it does. If the Koran is correct when it says that God is beyond human understand, then we cannot complain that we don’t understand the trinity.

The resolution for your problem is the resurrection of Jesus. That is not an intellectual resolution. It’s not a philosophical proof, it’s not a logical explanation, it’s not anything that the mind can understand. It is an experiential proof. Think of it perhaps as Sufi mysticism. Great mystics don’t have to understand God with their minds because they experience God in their very lives. For the better part of 2000 years Christian mystics all over the planet have been experiencing in their lives the reality of the resurrection of Jesus, just like Sufi mystics experience the reality of Allah. For us born too late to literally see Jesus with our eyeballs, that is our proof of Christianity. For Moslems born too late to literally see Mohammad, mystically experiencing Allah is their proof of Islam.

It’s really hard to criticize only one of them without being a hypocrite.

I completely disagree with Byz Wolf that the Koran itself disagrees with the Bible (it’s people who make disagreements where none need to be), but Elwill, Byz Wolf is right about how you, Elwill, have been reading the Koran and the Bible. You actually have been applying an inherently illogical and inconsistent method of interpretting the two books.

 

[elwill]

Ah there we go, I can see the comments again.

Actually, that IS the problem. You are attempting, again, to quote from the Bible to prove the Islamic viewpoint. If you cannot admit that it is uncorrupted, then you have no point at all to make. In order to use something as your evidence, you have to believe it’s reliable. Can you name me one lawyer who used a star witness in an important court case while at the same time admitting to the press that he knew the witness was a liar and not to be trusted? No sane lawyer would do this. Likewise, no sane theologian would claim a previous revelation was corrupted to the point of being unusable, then use that same revelation to prove his point. He would either be insane or incredibly stupid.

You say, “But Jesus said this and that!” All those concerns have already been addressed, if not here then in other threads. Repeating an argument is not demonstrating an argument. My friend, the reason we are having this conversation, again, is because you follow a false religion that demands you follow blind faith and forces you to lie to uphold that faith. That is why we are having this conversation.When you continue your intellectual dishonesty even after everyone has pointed it out to you, you are like the emperor with his new clothes, and despite the fact everyone has called you out for being naked and are now laughing at you, you continue marching on to finish the parade.

our discussion is about if jesus claimed divinity or not in the bible , how can i participate in such discussion without quoting the bible (even if i have beliefs it’s corrupted) ?

 

[elwill]

I think you keep missing his point elwill.

rinnie , thank you very much , you are the only one who touched my question and gave me the answers i seek , i noticed that from your last post
but actually i waited someone to comment or show any objections for your post
i will try to make sure that others agrees with you in your answer

We are answering your questions, but you refuse to accept what we are telling you. I told you quite simply **that Jesus did not want anyone to know he was the Truly Man and Truly God until the time came. ** He tells you why! In the scriptures as I quoted to you.

i want to know if our fellow christians here agrees with you in that ?
and which time was that ?