Concepts that lead to God

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Dameedna

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Hey all,

I have a question for the people on this board, but it is a hard one to phrase so hopefully this makes sense.

This questioning has come from another thread, that indicated that as a materialist I make the assumption there is nothing more than the material. The real question then for people like me, is why would I make the assumption otherwise since that’s all the universe(and my sensory (name removed by moderator)ut devices) show me.

I would like to know what concepts, thoughts, ideas led you to concieve of a possibility of a God(and not just an infinite, impersonal universe in one form or another). I’m not going to ask for any specific answers(with intent), however I’m hoping something more than “The bible is the word of God, therefore it is accruate therefore God exists” kind of ideas. If you want to share that, then it’s fine, but it’s not really personal to the individual.

I’m looking more for ideas outside of a specific religion, and I’m not looking for proofs. Just what may have gotten you thinking about it.

Since this is a question, and not an attempt to begin an argument or try and convince people of my views I’ll share some thoughts I have that make me question. I’m agnostic(or label me really what you want, I’m not religious lets just say that), and there are a few ideas or concepts that make me question enough so that I’m not entirely sure of my athiestish views. So here’s mine.
  1. The universe itself. As much as it can or could be in the future explained by a “theory” of everything I’m still not sure this theory would suffice. It is the very simple fact that the universe exists that makes me stand a little bit in awe of it all and makes me question the absolute nature of my own existance. Doesn’t mean anything really, but it does make me stand back and take another look.
  2. Qualities of the universe - I can attribute certain qualities to the universe(I think) one being it’s capacity to create life. I accept the concept that since it did create life, it couldn’t be any other way again making the quality meaningless. BUT, I can’t get around the fact that life was still created and the universe appears to be rather primed for it(along with lifes desctruction as well)
  3. Within this capacity to create life, it creates a self-aware form of life(Humans, at the very minimum). A by-product most likely of it’s life-giving properties…but…we are still self-aware aren’t we? This makes me question.
  4. Knowlege - This is a bit more of a tricky one, because knowlege could really just be subjective to humans. Are there actual laws, or do we just percieve laws to make sense of things. That’s a possibility, but within this universe there is such refinement and extrodinary “luck” as to make it seem, that the universe is knowlege itself, rather than we have knowledge. It’s almost a paradoxical concept.
Anyway, as I said I’m a firm un-believer and I’m not really looking for anyone’s “proof” and would prefer people refrain from trying to convince me of anything . I just would like to hear your ideas.

Hope that makes sense.

Cheers
Dame 🙂

P.S If you want to share on what has occured that convinces you there’s nothing more to the universe, that’s fine too if you’d like, but it’s not the point of the post 🙂
 
My answer is my conversion story. Though I guess that dosen’t actually answer the question, since it wasn’t a concept but a reality.

Concept-wise, the Universe every day teaches me God exists. I learn it from seeing how beautiful and vast and ordered and complex everything is, how animals and scientific laws teach man morals by their behavior and actions, the morality and intelligence and consicence of man, evolution, the big bang, and many more discoveries which science makes every day. It is amazing that God has created a space-time continuum that mirrors His glory!
 
Take for instance quarks. We’ve never seen them but there are logical and experimental reasons to assume they are there and meanwhile we know everything is a variation on the up-quark, the down-quark and the electron.

Laws and constants. They surely must be for real for otherwise there wouldn’t be this universe and us in it, as a selfreflecting form of life, to wonder over it.

Is there only meaningless matter moving about?
Ernst Mach, a famous physisist end 19e century, thought atoms to be strange esoteric objects. And he considered Einstein to be a weird imposter.

God. There is a very educated story to tell on the coming about, culturally, historically, psychologically, of the concept ‘God’. For instance Achnaton, was the first to speak of the one God, in stead of the multitude of Gods one usually believed in. The Jews at that time lived in Egypt, and probably took over the notion.

In general science has come to the notion religion, whatever form it takes, is deep ingrained in the human system. It has to do with being able to have epiphanic experience, to consider ethics, to be creative, and to form complex societies.

And by the way, mystics from all sorts of traditions agree on the notion, God or the deity is a mystery, very much present but impossible to put into words.

And these days, looking at the ascent and organisation of this universe, it purely on rational and empirical grounds is hardly possible any more to not think something creative is the main author of all this being. Materialism needs a lot of investment of faith to uphold. And it seems it has a lot to do with ideology, resentment, bias, ignorence and subjective preference.
 
Benedict_Broere said:
God. There is a very educated story to tell on the coming about, culturally, historically, psychologically, of the concept ‘God’. For instance Achnaton, was the first to speak of the one God, in stead of the multitude of Gods one usually believed in. The Jews at that time lived in Egypt, and probably took over the notion.
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This is interesting, I’ve heard that the idea of the “one God” didn’t actually come from the Jew’s, who originally believed in multiple Gods.

Got any interesting online information about this?
And by the way, mystics from all sorts of traditions agree on the notion, God or the deity is a mystery, very much present but impossible to put into words.
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Mystical writings are interesting, if not some-times a little impossible to understand(at least for me)
And these days, looking at the ascent and organisation of this universe, it purely on rational and empirical grounds is hardly possible any more to not think something creative is the main author of all this being. Materialism needs a lot of investment of faith to uphold. And it seems it has a lot to do with ideology, resentment, bias, ignorence and subjective preference.
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I think athiesm(and it’s apparent cousin materialism) is a bit misunderstood, but I’ll leave that for now.

So for you, it is the universe that causes you to embrace the concept of God? or is it what we’ve now discovered about the universe?
 
Karen Armstrong for instance.

Atheism and materialism have a lot to do with modernity, how it evolved, with increasing individualism, subject-orientation, secularisation, increasing industrial processes, etc.

I don’t know what God is. Its beyond comprehension. But following the line of thought of Eucharisted, I think one can say that in the past century this universe increasingly turned into something game-like, a form of art, something alive, and away from the mechanistic and materialistic point of view. What makes it seems we inhabit something that in essence has to do with energy and mathematics, and motion and development, and – to me at least – creativity.

All atheistic and materialistic positions, and also all the more simplistic religious positions, increasingly are crumbling under the weight of ever larger amounts of scientific data, that suggest this universe in its nature might be reached by only the deepest mystical and philosophical intuitions.
 
I guess my post was about asking you why you think this, or feel this way.

I wasn’t asking what you believed, but what lead you to it. 🙂
 
Although this doesn’t come from personal experience, as I am a cradle Catholic, it is a very interesting argument, which originates (I believe) with John Henry Newman (see my sig for more info)

JHN’s own argument was based on the undeniable “spirit” within, meaning the conscience. There is something within us, that seems to indicate that there is a higher law or more properly AUTHORITY, that must be obeyed, or the conscience is troubled. Everyone has this, from aborigines to the most materialistic atheist. Why do ALL humans concur in certain BEHAVIORS? Everyone acknowledges the concept of heroism and valor, self-denial for the good of the community, love, appreciation for the good etc.

It may be something that geneticists would try to say evolved, but would be unable to prove anything, as it is an invisible force.

Still, from one’s own personal experience, one can see how the dictates of conscience rule our lives, whether we understand how or why. True, some have stifled or almost annihilated theirs, but it takes effort. There seems to be SOME INVISIBLE AUTHORITY that demands obedience. This is a strange and provocative argument to some. (unlike instinct, which acting against would not necessarily leave us troubled. E.G. risking one’s life to save another would be against instinct, yet obedient to conscience.)

I hope I haven’t made a hash of Newman’s far more articulate explanation. 😊
 
The observable order in nature, the seasons, the observable beauty that surrounds us. Why is it satisfying to behold? Is it not just as likely in a material world, that the environment would be hostile apprearing and inviniting? That the naturlal order would be chaos, entropy?

When you accomplish something satisfying, why do you feel satisfaction? Does a cow feel satisfaction as she chews? Are they contemplating as they stand in the field? Are they problem solvers? Contrast that with human cognition. Your ability to think and reason is not an adaptation to a material world, it is a gift that you were born with. But, where did you get it? And why don’t lower forms of life have it?

Love - it is not material, and yet each of us desires it, seeks it, we may even design out lives around it. It is not rational, as would befit a material world. It is emotion, a reflection of the creator’s emotion. This is not a product of a purely material world. Consider the devotion of elderly spouses to one another; the sacrifice of one person for another. This is not rooted in the material, as one or both persons act against their self-interest.

The signs surround us if we but look for them.
 
The concept that led me to believe in the existence of God was the existence of God.

-ACEGC
 
Benedict_Broere said:
God. There is a very educated story to tell on the coming about, culturally, historically, psychologically, of the concept ‘God’. For instance Achnaton, was the first to speak of the one God, in stead of the multitude of Gods one usually believed in. The Jews at that time lived in Egypt, and probably took over the notion.
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I disagree with the statement in bold. He was the first Egyptian, perhaps, to suggest a monotheism, but not the monotheism as revealed to the Jews via Abraham many many years before his reign. His was a preference for one of the many gods of the Egyptian pantheon, namely the sun god, as the only “real” god. And not only that, he also contradicted the long held belief in the god king, downgrading the role of pharaoh from deity to spokesman for deity. The evidence suggests that the faith of Achnaton (Akhenaten) was an idiosyncratic phenomenon. It did not affect the Egyptian public’s conception of polytheism; in fact, it died out as quickly as it was conceived shortly after Akhenaten’s mysterious death and secret burial. His ideas were far too revolutionary and they brought him contempt from the public and eventually even his own family.

A connection between the two faiths is a tempting project, but there isn’t a shred of specific evidence besides the parallel between the Aten hymn and the 104th Psalm, and no good explanation for how the king of Egypt and a group of slaves could have come together under any circumstances that would lead to the exchange of ideas. The religious spheres of the Egyptian royal hierarchy and the despised population of immigrant slaves operated in complete isolation.

I think it is more likely that Akhentaten was influenced by the novel idea of the Jewish population that had moved into the land of Goshem. An idea (revelation) predating his reign. Nothing at all we know of the teachings of Moses suggests Atenism, but it seems that elements of Atenism approach the religion of Israel.

God’s peace.
 
Why?

I think because of the whole package of what science is telling me, and what personal epiphanic experience is telling me, plus what all religion and a lot of philosophy is telling me.

But deep down the most convincing to me is the way this universe seems to exist, as a complex vibration of particles/waves, that can be and not be, and split and integrate, and go back in time, and communicate on a distance, and act like jelly, membranes, etcetera, and all this with in general this growth in complexity against the stream of decay, with on each new level of complexity the appearance of new emergent order, while all the time choosing the right direction in the midst of endless possibilities, and this according to a set of very fine-tuned laws and constants, with finally also the appearance of life and creative organisms, and humanity on the brink of star-travel, and all this within this limited stretch of time of 13.7 billion of years.

This universe is as snapping your fingers on some jazz-tune, with on each snap the appearance of the complete works of Shakespeare.
 
Hey Ben,

Your view’s sound a little clockmakerish , but…it seems that the universe looks amazing to you to.

I look at it, and observe it from time to time,with no thought of what is, or what can be…and I think…dang…this is big.

The universe itself, despite all our understandings of how it ended up in this place…it is what it is isn’t it?

No explanation changes it.

So apparently, my universe concept is a hit 😛
 
Hey Dame,
This questioning has come from another thread, that indicated that as a materialist I make the assumption there is nothing more than the material. The real question then for people like me, is why would I make the assumption otherwise since that’s all the universe(and my sensory (name removed by moderator)ut devices) show me.
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For me, its becuz the many “isms” out there turn out to be self-refuting, and as Plato long ago sed, a theory is always wrong which, at its very root, invalidates itself.

Just like postivism, relativism, determinism etc are self-refuting doctrines, so is materialism. Check out C.S. Lewis on this.
 
Oh dear,

I thank you for your correction, but out of curiosity I did my bit of research, and well, see what pops up:

“The concept of monotheism sees a gradual development out of notions of henotheism and monolatrism. In the Ancient Near East, each city had a local patron deity, such as Shamash at Larsa or Sin at Ur. The first claims of global supremacy of a specific god date to the Late Bronze Age, with Akhenaten’s Great Hymn to the Aten (connected to Judaism by Sigmund Freud in his Moses and Monotheism), and, depending on dating issues, Zoroaster’s Gathas to Ahura Mazda. Currents of monism or monotheism emerge in Vedic India in the same period, with e.g. the Nasadiya Sukta. Philosophical monotheism and the associated concept of absolute good and evil emerges in Classical Antiquity, notably with Plato (c.f. Euthyphro dilemma), elaborated into the idea of The One in Neoplatonism.”

Quote from WIKI: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God

It seems Freud is to blame. Sometimes stories and explanations are stubborn and stick like glue. Maybe here lies a task for you to correct the WIKI (?!?)

In general it doesn’t refute my point though, that the concept ‘God’ has a history, and that religion in general shows evolution. Very interesting in this respect is for instance this interview with professor John Haught that can be viewed on:

meaningoflife.tv/video.php?speaker=haught&topic=complete
 
Dameedna,
I think the universe is trying to tell us its story, and its up to us, to try to grasp what is told if we will survive in it or not. Because thats how tough it is. How fundamental. For instance Jared Diamond, a well respected historion, explained in his book ‘Collapse’ how easy it is for a civilisation to go extinct, when not having an adequete enough view on realty. Humanity widely opened the box of Pandora: lots of means for mass destruction, lots of means to kill off biodiversity, and turn climate into horror. This universe is doing its thing, while our trying to grasp it is not without consequenses. We could go extinct not having a good enough picture, of what it all is and is about we are part of, gradually turning planet Earth into hell for our children and childrens-children.
 
Benedict, when you said:“This universe is doing its thing, while our trying to grasp it is not without consequenses. We could go extinct not having a good enough picture, of what it all is and is about we are part of,” it shows a need for an open mind. The universe is what it is whether we understand it or not (at this time).

Like I thought the moon revolved around the earth, and now I find that the moon is so big for the size of the earth that the center axis for both is 1802 miles off the earths polar axis, always away from the moons direction. This looking from the sun and how the earth and moon rotate and revolve. Guess the tides are not the only pull the moon has on us…

What more is coming down the pike? And to think, the universe already knows all this, and is maybe laughing at our minimal knowledge of what we think we know of it. Is the universe expanding… or is our knowledge of it expanding? Is the earth alive… or does our knowledge of it give it life? Can life breed life… how did we get here? Did the earth breed us… or something else? Why do we look to the stars… when other creatures do not? Are we the ultimate creature… or is one-better coming after us? Evolution would have us believe we are just a link on the chain of life… perhaps… perhaps not? Why do animals run down a mountain before an eruption… as we watch and wonder? Are animals smarter then us… have we lost what they know? Did we ever have it? Who is more knowledgeable about the earth, the animals or us? We both live here! Yet, we are learning from them… very interesting indeed. We humans seem to like some sort of proof… while the animals say the proof will be behind me! This is the difference between simply knowing (as animals) and needing proof the volcano will erupt (as humans). Why are animals more in tune then we are? What are we in tune with… that pulls our attention away from the earth? Yes, we have things in our being that animals do not, but, they have things in their beings that we do not… which is better for earth life? Which is better for some other form of life? And, where would that other life be? One can only imagine…

It is these kind of things I ponder… and still ask why…
 
Jared Diamond is very clear on this: cultures that have a not adequate enough view on reality tend to go extinct. For instance, if we on planet Earth think Al Gore is just a freak with a freak story things will turn bad. Philosophy means having a view on man and world. If this view is wrong, this will have consequences.
 
Benedict_Broere said:
Dameedna,
I think the universe is trying to tell us its story, and its up to us, to try to grasp what is told if we will survive in it or not. Because thats how tough it is. How fundamental. For instance Jared Diamond, a well respected historion, explained in his book ‘Collapse’ how easy it is for a civilisation to go extinct, when not having an adequete enough view on realty. Humanity widely opened the box of Pandora: lots of means for mass destruction, lots of means to kill off biodiversity, and turn climate into horror. This universe is doing its thing, while our trying to grasp it is not without consequenses. We could go extinct not having a good enough picture, of what it all is and is about we are part of, gradually turning planet Earth into hell for our children and childrens-children.
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The universe is rather brutal. How a creature such as us that can begin to understand it came into being is…well quite an extrodinary feat. It boggles the mind really, and I tend to freak myself out if I look into the mirror too long(who is looking back…eek!!).

The question really is, do we actually have the capacity to view reality well enough to save ourselves. Is self-awareness the cruelest of all possible outcomes in terms of all life that has evolved? It’s this creating of life and self-aware life that really gets to me when I think about the universe.
 
You’re pressing on one of the deepest problems when considering this universe is wanted and invented and created. Because why then is it such a brutal and cruel place to be for us fragile, selfaware and highly sensitive organisms ?

And when considering this universe is just matter originated by itself, and for the rest is just pointless matter moving about, then it appears that we are just in bad luck, being there, making the best of it.

I don’t have definite answers. But personally I think this universe is part of a Life and that we and all planetary life are part of that, participating in this huge effort of being and exploring and inventing…

I remember a dream Freeman Dyson told in an interview. With two of his grandchildren he was visiting heaven, and he saw this huge chair on which apparantly God was seated. He couldn’t see God though, and for that he had to rise up to a higher level of point of view. Well, he did that, leaving behind the children. And when he finally arrived at the point where he could see God, he saw a kid of about three years old.

Jews where screaming out their age-old prayers while Cyclon B was sprayed over them, and no one came for help. Reality can be of an immens cruelty.

Kids are sometimes born with uncurable cancer, and they will die in horrible pain.

Jesus died on the cross… Was it for us? Was it saying: I know, I suffer, with you ?

Buddha tried to answer suffering.

Practically every religion and philosophy tried and tries to give an answer.

I think we are part of something that knows and suffers, with us, with our suffering.
 
I’ve been a believer from very early on, Having been sent to a Catholic grade school and HS. BUT I lapsed for a fairly long time, about 10 years.

What really brings God back to mind is the discovery of the big bang theory. The notion that this incredibly vast universe could almost instantly be bought about into existence from a single point in space and a single point in time. AND it is still accelerating even after more than 13 Billion years.

What kind of being can create such energy ? It can not be random because it has only happened ONCE. Surely after 13 billion years if such an event were random, it would have occurred again.

The amount of energy needed to generate billions upon billions of galaxies is unimaginable. No one but God could begin/create such a place. If God with a mere touch of power, can do this then surely anything and everything is possible with God.
 
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