concerns about freemasonry

[Brian_H]

tommorw Brian I will post the reason the Pope still forbids it and I believe it will become more clear to you. But remember my friend if the Pope teaches it, it is not error. We must obey.

And remember as I stated earlier we don’t have to agree, or really understand as far as that goes. But we must OBEY our Pope. We do not have the Authority to teach, he does. ''He got the KEYS

I’ve read a multitude of opinions setting forth the reasons some people feel Catholics shouldn’t be masons. I believe those opinion demonstrate a flawed understanding of the masons. Furthermore, if the rationale stated were consistently applied, other civic groups should be forbidden as well.

 

[EzraJacob]

By your logic, if the Pope says sausage pizza is the best and Catholics can only eat sausage pizza, then it is truth, infallible teaching. The Popes’ personal opinions are not infallible and cannot be presented as evidence of truth.

This is where you are tripping up.

The Pope does not just give an opinion. He gives a ruling. The Bishops follow in that** ruling**. This is* not* about a single opinion! This is about a ruling!

Have you even read any of the links? Such as the link and quotes I posted from the Catholic Encyclopedia? It goes in depth of the Why and When, masonry was ruled against and prohibited by the Church.

 

[gamewell45]

All the evidence I need is in the current society we live in.

That really isn’t an honest answer then; its more of an opinion on your part.

 

[Brian_H]

Lets see, I follow the Church teaching (The Church being ‘the pillar and ground of the truth’) and you follow whatever you want to believe at any given time, we can see which of these positions is more catholic.

You seem to believe that everything any bishop or Pope said is the truth regardless of what they are talking about. It isn’t. You pointed that out earlier when you mentioned that the Church’s position regarding the universe was wrong. When you meet Jesus, be sure and tell him how you are a better Catholic than everyone that has a different opinion than you, I’m sure he will be impressed by that.

 

[kinja]

A Catholic would make an oath on the Bible, the sacred scripture of a Catholic, and the oath would be to their God. There are oaths taken in Boy Scouts that aren’t specifically Christian because Boy Scouts is non-denominational, Jews, Muslims, etc are welcome in Boy Scouts. Freemasonry isn’t a secret organization, their meetings and signs of recognition are secret. A Catholic that isn’t a member of KofC couldn’t sit through the business meeting of a KofC meeting either.

Brainwashed?

 

[EzraJacob]

You seem to believe that everything any bishop or Pope said is the truth regardless of what they are talking about. It isn’t. You pointed that out earlier when you mentioned that the Church’s position regarding the universe was wrong. When you meet Jesus, be sure and tell him how you are a better Catholic than everyone that has a different opinion than you, I’m sure he will be impressed by that.

The Churchs teaching on the universe was appropriate for that time. This is much different of a situation then Masonry.

And yes, everything the Bishops and the Pope rule on, is the truth. Until they make a change in the ruling, we must obey.

 

[Brian_H]

This is where you are tripping up.

The Pope does not just give an opinion. He gives a ruling. The Bishops follow in that** ruling**. This is* not* about a single opinion! This is about a ruling!

Have you even read any of the links? Such as the link and quotes I posted from the Catholic Encyclopedia? It goes in depth of the Why and When, masonry was ruled against and prohibited by the Church.

I’m familiar with their arguments. They are personal opinions based on speculation and conjecture. They are not infallible teachings relating to doctrine. As I mentioned, Pope John Paul II’s ruling that women cannot be ordained was a ruling, papal infallibility did not attach to it though, that was explicitly stated.

 

[At_Trent]

from the Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita

“The Pope, whoever he is, will never come to the secret societies; it is up to the secret societies to take the first step toward the Church, with the aim of conquering both of them.

“The task that we are going to undertake is not the work of a day, or of a month, or of a year; it may last several years, perhaps a century; but in our ranks the soldier dies and the struggle goes on.

“We do not intend to win the Popes to our cause, to make them neophytes of our principles, propagators of our ideas. That would be a ridiculous dream; and if events turn out in some way, if Cardinals or prelates, for example, of their own free will or by surprise, should enter into a part of our secrets, this is not at all an incentive for desiring their elevation to the See of Peter. That elevation would ruin us. Ambition alone would have led them to apostasy, the requirements of power would force them to sacrifice us. What we must ask for, what we should look for and wait for, as the Jews wait for the Messiah, is a Pope according to our needs ...

“With that we shall march more securely towards the assault on the Church than with the pamphlets of our brethren in France and even the gold of England. Do you want to know the reason for this? It is that with this, in order to shatter the high rock on which God has built His Church, we no longer need Hannibalian vinegar, or need gunpowder, or even need our arms. We have the little finger of the successor of Peter engaged in the ploy, and this little finger is as good, for this crusade, as all the Urban II’s and all the Saint Bernards in Christendom.

“We have no doubt that we will arrive at this supreme end of our efforts. But when? But how? The unknown is not yet revealed. Nevertheless, as nothing should turn us aside from the plan drawn up, and on the contrary everything should tend to this, as if as early as tomorrow success were going to crown the work that is barely sketched, we wish, in this instruction, which will remain secret for the mere initiates, to give the officials in the charge of the supreme Vente some advice that they should instill in all the brethren, in the form of instruction or of a memorandum ...

“Now then, to assure ourselves a Pope of the required dimensions, it is a question first of shaping him ... for this Pope, a generation worthy of the reign we are dreaming of. Leave old people and those of a mature age aside; go to the youth, and if it is possible, even to the children ... You will contrive for yourselves, at little cost, a reputation as good Catholics and pure patriots.

“This reputation will put access to our doctrines into the midst of the young clergy, as well as deeply into the monasteries. In a few years, by the force of things, this young clergy will have overrun all the functions; they will form the sovereign’s council, they will be called to choose a Pontiff who should reign. And this Pontiff, like most of his contemporaries, will be necessarily more or less imbued with the Italian and humanitarian principles that we are going to begin to put into circulation. It is a small grain of black mustard that we are entrusting to the ground; but the sunshine of justice will develop it up to the highest power, and you will see one day what a rich harvest this small seed will produce.

“In the path that we are laying out for our brethren, there are found great obstacles to conquer, difficulties of more than one kind to master. They will triumph over them by experience and by clearsightedness; but the goal is so splendid that it is important to put all the sails to the wind in order to reach it. You want to revolutionize Italy, look for the Pope whose portrait we have just drawn. You wish to establish the reign of the chosen ones on the throne of the prostitute of Babylon, let the Clergy march under your standard, always believing that they are marching under the banner of the apostolic keys. You intend to make the last vestige of tyrants and the oppressors disappear; lay your snares like Simon Bar-Jona; lay them in the sacristies, the seminaries, and the monasteries rather than at the bottom of the sea: and if you do not hurry, we promise you a catch more miraculous than his. The fisher of fish became the fisher of men; you will bring friends around the apostolic Chair. You will have preached a revolution in tiara and in cope, marching with the cross and the banner, a revolution that will need to be only a little bit urged on to set fire to the four corners of the world.”7

 

[Brian_H]

The Churchs teaching on the universe was appropriate for that time. This is much different of a situation then Masonry.

And yes, everything the Bishops and the Pope rule on, is the truth. Until they make a change in the ruling, we must obey.

Then truth can change and truth is relative.

 

[At_Trent]

The Authenticity of the Alta Vendita Documents

The secret papers of the Alta Vendita, highest lodge of the Carbonari (an Italian secret society) that fell into the hands of Pope Gregory XVI embrace a period that goes from 1820 to 1846. They were published at the request of Blessed Pope Pius IX by Cretineau-Joly in his work The Roman Church and Revolution.4

With the brief of approbation of February 25, 1861 which he addressed to the author, Pope Pius IX guaranteed the authenticity of these documents, but he did not allow anyone to divulge the true members of the Alta Vendita implicated in this correspondence.

The full text of the Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita is also contained in Msgr. George E. Dillon’s book, Grand Orient Freemasonry Unmasked. When Pope Leo XIII was presented with a copy of Msgr. Dillon’s book, he was so impressed that he ordered an Italian version to be completed and published at his own expense.5

In the encyclical Humanum Genus, Leo XIII called upon Catholic leaders to “tear off the mask from Freemasonry and make plain to all what it really is”.6 The publication of these documents is a means of “tearing off the mask”. And if the Popes asked that these letters be published, it is because they want all Catholics to know the secret societies’ plans to subvert the Church from within so that Catholics would be on their guard and hopefully, prevent such a catastrophe from taking place.

 

[EzraJacob]

I’m familiar with their arguments. They are personal opinions based on speculation and conjecture. They are not infallible teachings relating to doctrine. As I mentioned, Pope John Paul II’s ruling that women cannot be ordained was a ruling, papal infallibility did not attach to it though, that was explicitly stated.

Prove it

 

[Brian_H]

from the Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita

Someone posted that yesterday. It isn’t a Masonic document. It is supposedly from the Italian Carbonari, but even that claim is suspect and unverified. The Italian Carbonari is not Freemasonry and has no ties to Freemasonry. Feel free to trot out some quotes from Leo Taxil if you are that desperate.

 

[gamewell45]

Yes, Masons put Masonic “freedom” and “enlightenment” principles above all, including God and His Church. When you toss out dogma you have humanist so-called “rights” that shun God and jeopardize souls. So Jesus takes a back seat in the Lodge and in the public square.

I have to disagree with you; being a Freemason, I can honestly tell you that Freemasonry encourages each Brother to be steadfast in the faith of his belief. Hence, there is no “dogma” in Freemasonry that shuns God and jeopardizes souls.

The lodges are not only comprised of Christians, but people of the Jewish, Muslim, Hindu and other faiths. Since we don’t discuss religion nor politics in open lodge, Jesus does not take a “back seat” in the Lodge as you appear to maintain.

 

[EzraJacob]

Then truth can change and truth is relative.

Would make sense, if masonry was something like a teaching on the universe. Which of course our knowledge gained.

Masonry must first change and adopt more Catholic-friendly ways. This is not something that we can just learn through advancement of technology.

Just like women becoming Priest. Such will not change.

You are trying to compare apples to oranges.

 

[At_Trent]

Someone posted that yesterday. It isn’t a Masonic document. It is supposedly from the Italian Carbonari, but even that claim is suspect and unverified. The Italian Carbonari is not Freemasonry and has no ties to Freemasonry. Feel free to trot out some quotes from Leo Taxil if you are that desperate.

Defend these satanic organizations at your own peril.

 

[At_Trent]

I have to disagree with you; being a Freemason, I can honestly tell you that Freemasonry encourages each Brother to be steadfast in the faith of his belief. Hence, there is no “dogma” in Freemasonry that shuns God and jeopardizes souls.

The lodges are not only comprised of Christians, but people of the Jewish, muslim, Hindu and other faiths. Since we don’t discuss religion nor politics in open lodge, Jesus does not take a “back seat” in the Lodge as you appear to maintain.

Blue Lodges aren’t the problem.

 

[TrentCath]

I’m familiar with their arguments. They are personal opinions based on speculation and conjecture. They are not infallible teachings relating to doctrine. As I mentioned, Pope John Paul II’s ruling that women cannot be ordained was a ruling, papal infallibility did not attach to it though, that was explicitly stated.

Did not cardinal ratzinger CLEARLY STATE later that papal infallibility did in fact apply? '**October 28, 1995

Dubium: Whether the teaching that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women, which is presented in the Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis to be held definitively, is to be understood as belonging to the deposit of faith.

Responsum: In the affirmative.

This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium 25, 2). Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith**.’

 

[gamewell45]

Blue Lodges aren’t the problem.

If they are not the problem, then I’m confused as to why the Church doesn’t allow membership in Blue Lodges with the understanding that they cannot join concordant bodies such as York Rite and/or Scottish Rite.

 

[At_Trent]

If they are not the problem, then I’m confused as to why the Church doesn’t allow membership in Blue Lodges with the understanding that they cannot join concordant bodies such as York Rite and/or Scottish Rite.

Perhaps Rome knows better

Read some Albert Pike.

 

[Brian_H]

Brainwashed?

I guess it’s easier to say nonsense like that than to objectively look at facts.