Condemned before or after hearing the gospel of Christ?

[neweyes]

We are condemned from the moment we are born into this world. It’s only through Christ that we are saved. But make no mistake, those who do not abide in Him will not enter His Kingdom.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”

 

[sandusky]

Maybe you need more time. (Hint: Remember that you’re not saved until God says your saved. And that happens the split second after you kick the bucket. Haven’t we been through this before?)

Sounds like “tradition” to me. Where, in scripture, is stated that one is not saved until one dies.

 

[Reformed]

Further irony about this thread: on the macro- level, Reformed agrees with the Catholic Church: no one enters eternal life with God without going through Jesus Christ.

The issue is on the micro- level: how and when does one come to know and believe in Jesus Christ as Savior.

I will try hard to answer your questions. Consider the Scriptures for the answer to your question. Those who were predestined are lost and condemned unitil they hear the gospel and the Spirit enables them to receive it. Like the rest of humanity, the elect were once children of disobdience and children of wrath until God rescuse them through the means of hearing and receiving the gospel. We all enter this world as children of Satan and are in the kingdom of darkness until God moves us to the kingdom of light through his sovereign grace alone.

Ephesians 1

Greeting
1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful [1] in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us [2] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known [3] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee [4] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, [5] to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 2

2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body [1] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But [2] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

2 Corinthians 4:6

For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[cfrancis]

I will try hard to answer your questions. Consider the Scriptures for the answer to your question. Those who were predestined are lost and condemned unitil they hear the gospel and the Spirit enables them to receive it. Like the rest of humanity, the elect were once children of disobdience and children of wrath until God rescuse them through the means of hearing and receiving the gospel. We all enter this world as children of Satan and are in the kingdom of darkness until God moves us to the kingdom of light through his sovereign grace alone.

Ephesians 1

Greeting
1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful [1] in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us [2] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known [3] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee [4] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, [5] to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 2

2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body [1] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But [2] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

2 Corinthians 4:6

For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

These are beautiful verses and I heartily agree with them; however, I may not agree with your interpretation of them.
I digress.
You miss my point when I say:

The issue is on the micro- level: how and when does one come to know and believe in Jesus Christ as Savior.

The issue is: for those who never hear the Gospel, how may they be saved?
You stated the merits of Christ’s passion, death and resurrection can be applied before the event.
This means the merits of Christ’s passion, death and resurrection are a-temporal, or, better stated, not tied to time as we know it.

 

[Reformed]

These are beautiful verses and I heartily agree with them; however, I may not agree with your interpretation of them.
I digress.
You miss my point when I say:
The issue is: for those who never hear the Gospel, how may they be saved?
You stated the merits of Christ’s passion, death and resurrection can be applied before the event.
This means the merits of Christ’s passion, death and resurrection are a-temporal, or, better stated, not tied to time as we know it.

By whom did God apply the work of Christ in the OT? It sure seems there was a worlwide flood to start with. And in general, it sure seems God chose and set apart a tiny tribe to be His vessel of mercy. And within that tiny tribe (visible church), not all were chosen to be true sons of Abraham (invisible church). Please study Romans 9, 10, and 11 to understand the remnant chosen by grace in the OT.

The Remnant of Israel
11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, [1] a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”

Gentiles Grafted In

 

[tdgesq]

Ohh… I never stated that all infants that die go to Hell. Please go to the thread someone created in regards to infants. My answer to infants who die is on post 32 and 53.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=68587

Then you contradict yourself. On the one hand, you insist that a sinner is condemned before hearing the gospel, including unborn children. See:

A person is condemned in Adam, before we are even born. A person is also condemned for his personal sins too. Therefore, a sinner is condemned before he hears the gospel, and never after.

On the other hand you post me to a link where - lo and behold - you state that, “Elect infants who die in infancy will be in Heaven because the Spirit applies the work of Christ on the elect infant’s behalf before he dies.” According to you an infant whether born or unborn may escape condemnation without hearing the Gospel. All that matters is if he is one of the “elect.” This is inconsistent with your claim in this thread.

Actually, I believe all Old Testament saints were saved by the person and work of Jesus Christ that was applied to them prior to the cross.

So do I, but this is also inconsistent with you claim that a sinner is condemned who does not hear the Gospel.

It also seems that you think condemnation is not a biblical doctrine.

I never said that. In fact, I very clearly in my earlier posts state that one can be condemned both before and after hearing the Gospel. You must be thinking of another poster.

Romans 8

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [1] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you [2] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, [3] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. - Rom 8

Yes, I agree with the teaching of Romans 8 that there is no condemnation for those who are in Jesus Christ. It doesn’t solve your contradictory assertions though that those who do not hear the Gospel are condemned, yet somehow infants and the Old Testament peoples are saved.

 

[Reformed]

Then you contradict yourself. On the one hand, you insist that a sinner is condemned before hearing the gospel, including unborn children.

Oh my friend, we all have to make some type of position on infants and OT saints. We don’t need to make everything so neat in our theological positions. Infants are quite a mystery…
including those infants who have not participated in the Roman Catholic sacrament of infant baptismal regeneration. If infants are regenerated at infant baptism, then how about those infants who die without partaking in the conversion sacrament of Rome? Do you believe in the age of accountablity and why? If you read my 2 postings on infants, I do state that elect infants are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. I believe John the Baptist was converted and saved in his mother’s womb, don’t you? Now if you agree, John did not participate in the OT infant sacrament or the NT infant sacrament.

 

[cfrancis]

By whom did God apply the work of Christ in the OT? It sure seems there was a worlwide flood to start with. And in general, it sure seems God chose and set apart a tiny tribe to be His vessel of mercy. And within that tiny tribe (visible church), not all were chosen to be true sons of Abraham (invisible church). Please study Romans 9, 10, and 11 to understand the remnant chosen by grace in the OT.

You have still missed my point, though such does not surprise me, as your agenda is more attemtping to prove the Catholic Church wrong than an attempting to understand.
As you stated:

Actually, I believe all Old Testament saints were saved by the person and work of Jesus Christ that was applied to them prior to the cross.

This statement carries the implication that Christ’s saving work is a-temporal, not bound by time - a position with which the Catholic Church agrees.

 

[sambos671]

Oh my friend, we all have to make some type of position on infants and OT saints. We don’t need to make everything so neat in our theological positions. Infants are quite a mystery…
including those infants who have not participated in the Roman Catholic sacrament of infant baptismal regeneration. If infants are regenerated at infant baptism, then how about those infants who die without partaking in the conversion sacrament of Rome? Do you believe in the age of accountablity and why? If you read my 2 postings on infants, I do state that elect infants are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. I believe John the Baptist was converted and saved in his mother’s womb, don’t you? Now if you agree, John did not participate in the OT infant sacrament or the NT infant sacrament.

 

[Reformed]

Reformed;4305259:

Reformed,
what makes you reformed? What is your theology because sometimes I think you’re going out on a limb. What is your view of Calvin? Or the Presbeterians? What kind of Reformed person are you?

I only made a screen name as Reformed so that the reader could understand that I was not Catholic, nor mainstream contemporary Protestant. I would change my screen name if I could. I really don’t put that much emphasis on John Calvin to define truth. I can believe in both padeo baptism and believer’s baptism at the same time. There are issues that we cannot be completely certain on this side of glory. Infants are one of those topics. We can know that Old Testament Saints were redeemed by the blood of Christ. We can know that elect infants were too saved by the blood of Christ. However, nobody knows who are the elect infants. Are they infants from a houshold of faith (1 Cor 7, Acts 2) only? I don’t know.

If you want a good idea of my summary of beliefs, you can look to both the Westminster Confession of Faith alongside with the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

 

[sambos671]

sambos671;4305304:

I only made a screen name as Reformed so that the reader could understand that I was not Catholic, nor mainstream contemporary Protestant. I would change my screen name if I could. I really don’t put that much emphasis on John Calvin to define truth. I can believe in both padeo baptism and believer’s baptism at the same time. There are issues that we cannot be completely certain on this side of glory. Infants are one of those topics. We can know that Old Testament Saints were redeemed by the blood of Christ. We can know that elect infants were too saved by the blood of Christ. However, nobody knows who are the elect infants. Are they infants from a houshold of faith (1 Cor 7, Acts 2) only? I don’t know.

If you want a good idea of my summary of beliefs, you can look to both the Westminster Confession of Faith alongside with the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

I look at baptism as a covenant issue like circumcision. I view things from a covenant perspective.

 

[Reformed]

Reformed;4305317:

I look at baptism as a covenant issue like circumcision. I view things from a covenant perspective.

I thought that Catholics had a form of covenant theology like Reformed Christians. Reformed theology also sees the parallel between circumcision and baptism. Do you agree?

 

[sambos671]

sambos671;4305410:

I thought that Catholics had a form of covenant theology like Reformed Christians. Reformed theology also sees the parallel between circumcision and baptism. Do you agree?

Well, I’m not Catholic. And they do. But I would phrase that differently Reformed takes after Catholicism. But reformed seems to see only part of the picture the Catholic view is wider.

 

[Reformed]

Reformed;4305507:

Well, I’m not Catholic. And they do. But I would phrase that differently Reformed takes after Catholicism. But reformed seems to see only part of the picture the Catholic view is wider.

Could you please share your Protestant denomination with me? Or, if you are not Protestant, what is your belief?

 

[sambos671]

sambos671;4305552:

Could you please share your Protestant denomination with me? Or, if you are not Protestant, what is your belief?

I go to a Southern Baptist Church. However, to be fair here I’ll let you know this. I was a cradle Catholic and left the Church when I was 15 and I’ve studied the scriptures for years from a non-denominational point of view. I studied for awhile Pentacostalism and ended up in the baptist church because of the emphasis on Bible study. However, I’ve lately taken on certain studies of world, and Christian history trying to find out how it all fits together. And guess what. I find that the earliest church writings outside of the NT reflects what the earliest christians believed which primarily in the Eucharist. I’ve also found out that the liturgy held an important role for christian believers. And it’s affected my views of the Catholic church. Just for your information I started by reading penguin classics Early Christian writings which has the letters of Clement, Ignatius, The Martyrdom of Polycarp, letter of Barnabas, and the Didache. I suggest always reading the introductory information. I also picked up Against Heresies by Ireaneus, the 1st and 2nd Apologies of Justin Martyr. I picked up a translation of a coptic text called on the Apostolic Tradition by Hyppolytus, I’ve read Josephus the Antiquities, I’ve read Eusibius Ecclesiastical History, I’ve read JND Kelly’s Early Christian Doctrine, Which lead me to pickup the Oxford English edition of the Apocrypha (which really isn’t Appocrypha or hidden) I’ve picked up a CAB Catholic Study Bible, which is excellent. Again always read the Introductory stuff. I’ve picked up a Zondervan Church history study guide. I’ve always had an NIV study bible as well as a KJB. I’ve picked up a penguine classic The City of God by Augustine. And to get a view of what might have been happening at the time of Jesus I picked up Penguine classic Dead Sea Scrolls translated texts. To help with this reading I also picked up Flussers 2nd Templer Period Literature. All of this lead me to getting a copy of the LXX greek and english. And Christian Anthology books which have selected early church writings. Just lately I’ve picked up a book on the first 7 eccuminical counsils by Davis and am making my way through that. But to get a real feel for what Catholic devotion is I picked up the liturgy of the hours. It took me a little while to get use to it but found it inspirational and good. Strangely enough there is more materials I want to read.

As a protestant I’ve gone through Foxes Book of Matyrs. Read Parts of the Institutes by Calvin (tough reading) read selections from Martin Luther, I’ve read many many books by different protestant authers like RC Sproul, Philip Keller, Francis Shaffer,Chuck Coleson, Charels Swindoll, AW Tozer, Elisabeth Elliot. I’ve read pilgrims progress. These are just those off the top.

Does that tie things down a bit for you?

 

[tdgesq]

Oh my friend, we all have to make some type of position on infants and OT saints.

Yes, but hopefully the position we take isn’t one that it is self-refuting.

We don’t need to make everything so neat in our theological positions. Infants are quite a mystery…

Everybody who existed prior to the New Covenant, those who never heard of Jesus or had the Gospel preached to them. Are they all a mystery too? There is nothing mysterious going on here. Condemnation or salvation can occur either before or after hearing the Gospel, just as the Catholic Church teaches. Your personal interpretation of Scripture is wrong.

including those infants who have not participated in the Roman Catholic sacrament of infant baptismal regeneration. If infants are regenerated at infant baptism, then how about those infants who die without partaking in the conversion sacrament of Rome?

The RC view on infant baptism and original sin doesn’t somehow make your view on condemnation before hearing the gospel any more cogent. Baptism is necessary for salvation. Baptism can take place other than in its sacramental form. This has always been the teaching of the early Fathers of the Church. And it is consistent with the teaching of the RCC on baptism. It certainly doesn’t lend any credence to the inconsistency to which you hold.

Do you believe in the age of accountablity and why?

Sure. The short answer is because the CC to which the deposit of faith was entrusted teaches it. It also stands to reason that one who does not have the requisite state of mind to sin cannot sin - the question of original sin aside. Perhaps you can show me scripturally where the age of accountability is explicitly taught, and then show how it comports with your notion that those who do not hear the gospel are condemned.

If you read my 2 postings on infants, I do state that elect infants are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ.

I not only read them, I quoted one of them in my last post. Yes, you state that some infants are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ - only the elect. You also state that every sinner who does not hear the gospel is condemned.

I believe John the Baptist was converted and saved in his mother’s womb, don’t you? Now if you agree, John did not participate in the OT infant sacrament or the NT infant sacrament.

I agree that the original sin of John the Baptist was removed in his mother’s womb because that is the overwhelming consensus of Catholic teachers and theologians and because it is supported by Luke 1:13-15. Of course, I am interested in the title of this thread. Whether people are condemned before hearing the Gospel, and if not, what are the exceptions and where are they scripturally justified. I don’t think you can show me, primarily because your analysis of condemnation being a function of not hearing the gospel is flawed.

 

[Ag_not]

Reformed;4305617:

I go to a Southern Baptist Church. However, to be fair here I’ll let you know this. I was a cradle Catholic and left the Church when I was 15 and I’ve studied the scriptures for years from a non-denominational point of view. I studied for awhile Pentacostalism and ended up in the baptist church because of the emphasis on Bible study. However, I’ve lately taken on certain studies of world, and Christian history trying to find out how it all fits together. And guess what. I find that the earliest church writings outside of the NT reflects what the earliest christians believed which primarily in the Eucharist. I’ve also found out that the liturgy held an important role for christian believers. And it’s affected my views of the Catholic church. Just for your information I started by reading penguin classics Early Christian writings which has the letters of Clement, Ignatius, The Martyrdom of Polycarp, letter of Barnabas, and the Didache. I suggest always reading the introductory information. I also picked up Against Heresies by Ireaneus, the 1st and 2nd Apologies of Justin Martyr. I picked up a translation of a coptic text called on the Apostolic Tradition by Hyppolytus, I’ve read Josephus the Antiquities, I’ve read Eusibius Ecclesiastical History, I’ve read JND Kelly’s Early Christian Doctrine, Which lead me to pickup the Oxford English edition of the Apocrypha (which really isn’t Appocrypha or hidden) I’ve picked up a CAB Catholic Study Bible, which is excellent. Again always read the Introductory stuff. I’ve picked up a Zondervan Church history study guide. I’ve always had an NIV study bible as well as a KJB. I’ve picked up a penguine classic The City of God by Augustine. And to get a view of what might have been happening at the time of Jesus I picked up Penguine classic Dead Sea Scrolls translated texts. To help with this reading I also picked up Flussers 2nd Templer Period Literature. All of this lead me to getting a copy of the LXX greek and english. And Christian Anthology books which have selected early church writings. Just lately I’ve picked up a book on the first 7 eccuminical counsils by Davis and am making my way through that. But to get a real feel for what Catholic devotion is I picked up the liturgy of the hours. It took me a little while to get use to it but found it inspirational and good. Strangely enough there is more materials I want to read.

As a protestant I’ve gone through Foxes Book of Matyrs. Read Parts of the Institutes by Calvin (tough reading) read selections from Martin Luther, I’ve read many many books by different protestant authers like RC Sproul, Philip Keller, Francis Shaffer,Chuck Coleson, Charels Swindoll, AW Tozer, Elisabeth Elliot. I’ve read pilgrims progress. These are just those off the top.

Does that tie things down a bit for you?

:hypno:

:hypno:

:coolinoff:

That’s pretty comprehensive and logical - I’m going to snag it

I’ve always enjoyed reading - but this is getting rediculous

:manvspc:

 

[sambos671]

sambos671;4306032:

:hypno:

:hypno:

:coolinoff:

That’s pretty comprehensive and logical - I’m going to snag it

I’ve always enjoyed reading - but this is getting rediculous

:manvspc:

I haven’t even mention Anselms works or The Summa of the Summa by Aquinas. I read too much but hey I could have worse hobbies.

 

[Usagi]

Reformed:

Elect infants who die in infancy will be in Heaven because the Spirit applies the work of Christ on the elect infant’s behalf before he dies.

Could the same not apply to elect adults who die without having heard the Gospel?

You mentioned earlier that God would provide a minister of the Gospel to all whom He chooses to save, and that is possible (some stricter Catholics believe the same). It would have to be awfully miraculous in some cases, though, such as the entire hemisphere of the Earth that did not receive the Gospel for the first 1500 years of Christianity.

Would you accept the possibility of God granting a miraculous private revelation to such people, rather than providing a human minister to preach the Gospel?

When Catholics say that some non-Christians may be saved, we still believe it happens via the righteousness and sacrifice of Christ, not through the beliefs or actions of those people. We do allow a small role for the openness of the recipient, as we do not accept the conclusion that God chooses some to be damned and withholds His grace from them. Thus, we must believe that He works in some way even with those who are unable to hear the Gospel in the usual way.

Usagi

 

[Reformed]

Perhaps you can show me scripturally where the age of accountability is explicitly taught, and then show how it comports with your notion that those who do not hear the gospel are condemned.
.

I don’t believe in the age of accountability. If a Christian believed in the age of accountability, they should take out their kids out of this world before they reach that apparent age of accountability. Now, that we be an act of love since eternity is forever.