Maybe you could explain the context of the verse, “If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” John 20:23.
Well, with all due respect, whether you agree or not, the verse (in conjunction with 9:6) says that God gave the authority on earth to forgive sins to men. Is the Sacrament of Confession not about men having authority on earth to forgive sins? Indeed it is. So, to say that Matt 9:8 is not about the Sacrament of Confession is kind of like saying the Sacrament of Confession is not about men having authority on earth to forgive sins.
If the sale of Indulgences was the main thing that brought about the reformation, the basic Protestant Faith would resemble the Catholic Faith a whole lot closer. It was actually nothing more than an excuse to bring about the Reformation.
Besides, the sale of Indulgences has nothing to do with Forgiveness of Sins. Nothing. This is off-topic.
thank you for the education. I honestly had no Idea that the Catholic Church had ever condemned the practice that Luther objected to. it is just to bad it took 46 years for the Church to respond.
hold up a minute, I think you judge to quickly, most Protestants even preachers, don’t know that much about Catholics, so how are we supposed to know something that we have never been taught? I wish you guys were more evangelical
the “basic” Protestant Faith does resemble the Catholic Faith.
If Luther had nothing to Protest, the Catholic Church would have never had to condemned the misuse of Indulgences at the Council of Trent.
I did not intend to take this discussion “down a rabbit hole”
So back on topic if you tried to convince me; as Protestant, using Matt 9:8 as a proof text, I would say you are talking the verse out of context, this verse is saying that Jesus has the right to forgive sins
thank you for the education. I honestly had no Idea that the Catholic Church had ever condemned the practice that Luther objected to. it is just to bad it took 46 years for the Church to respond.
Ecumenical councils don’t spring up overnight. There have been only 21 or so in 2000 years of Church History. This is not a startlingly long time for the Council of Trent to act. The Church typically tries to resolve disputes without having to resort to councils. Councils should only be called when other means have been exhausted.
IMO, this seems to be the case with the first Ecumenical Council, the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. The Judaizers and the local Christian Church in Antioch could not resolve the circumcision issue - or “Skin-Gate” as I call it.
Where is the Altar? Where is the Sacrifice offered up at Mass? Where is the Real Presence in the Eucharist? Where is the Sacrament of Confession? Confirmation? I could go on.
Amen!!! This wasn’t the first problem that Mother Church had faced. But other issues were resolved from within. None others had to take their ball and go play elsewhere. That’s not what Luther originally intended, but that’s what happened.
I didn’t think that you were. I was simply pointing out that Indulgences and Forgiveness of Sins are apples and oranges. There is no overlap in the two practices or the Graces that they bring about.
But that is not what this verse says. The Holy Spirit inspired Matthew to write, When the crowds saw this they were struck with awe and glorified God who had given such authority to human beings. That’s pretty plain-speak. And the methods of this “gift of authority” is detailed in John, chapter 20.
You’re welcome! It takes a while for councils to come together and they usually have more than one issue to address when they do. I posted a link to all the council documents. Meander through them to see what issues they addressed.
You may be right and if this is true in my addressing your misunderstanding, then please forgive me and accept my apologies. However, I know that there are others who have learned the truth and still behave that way.
Actually, I think that the beginning of the ecumenical movement can be traced to the Second Vatican Council and the document UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO.I wish you guys were more evangelical
maybe they don’t come about that fast , but 46 years is a long time, and it resolved after Luther died so the protestant movement had already split off, it’s just a shame really.
That is so great, Praise God, I’ll tell you, I have been into Baptist churches (considering I’m a Baptist), Methodist,Episcopal, Penocostal and Non Demoninational Bible churches, I even went to a funeral at a MORMON church (that was …interesting), but I’ve never even seen the inside of a RC Chruch. but I have never been invited
that doesn’t mean we are outside of Grace.
well the NIV says given such authority to men, still in the plural I understand that; however, if the point of this verse was giving men the authority to forgive sins you would expect the sister verse in Mark to say the same thing, but it doesn’t it, it just says that they said we have never seen anything like this. where the verses are the same is really the point of this passage, in Matt. 9:6 and Mark 2:10
Respectfully, you are thinking with the speed and time of modern internet man.
I tend to agree with you.
.and…
The Church extends an OPEN INVITATION to all. I therefore invite you to attend a mass in the near future.
It is easy to recognise the work of the Holy Spirit in most Protestant forms of Christianity.
Correct again, only God can forgive sins. The priest performs a ministry, acting as the “eyes, ears and hands” of Christ, so to speak. The faith of this is expressed in the prayer said during the administration of the sacrament. Notice that the priest is not asked for forgiveness, God is.
In the early church confession was much more public, but a minister was required. From James, chapter 5…
The sacrament did not become private until the sixth century. Imagine getting up in church and declaring that you having an affair with someone! Imagine the scandal!
I don’t believe I said you were outside of Grace. I simply said you have turned away from the Church that distributes some of the Graces that Jesus established. But that, in and of itself, does not put you out of Grace.
No. JTBT, you are well aware that the Holy Spirit gifts individuals different ways.
James 5:16 Thereforen confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
Except that you are giving the everyday Christian the authority to withhold the forgiveness of sins. That’s a very grave authority that you have allowed just anybody to have. Think about it. If I steal your car, and you refuse to forgive me, my heavenly Father won’t forgive me?
To add to the above, while it may appear to you in your mistaken interpretation of scripture, that is not the understanding of the Catholic Church nor the early church as seen in scripture.
John and James is where I can see the justification for confession, but according to others on this blog confession in the early church was not what we see today; confession was indeed more public, and not just to a Priest. which is actually what I would expect from reading John and James
I have not allowed just anybody to have this authority, only Christians.
well look at Luke 5:24 it says the samething as Mark it is the same story in three different books, and the intent is the same in all three to show that the Son of Man has the Authority to forgive sins,