Conflicts sway world of fashion- Muslim-ization' of Women's Fashion

[inJESUS]

This isn’t about differing opinions. This is about harboring anger towards people with different opinions, ie, like the way you speak in angry terms about muslims and condemn everything they do. That is what is against Church teaching.

show me where i condemed everything muslim do and show me whats wrong with this : yes to modesty no to extremism. If you are talking about muslim men staring then it is my OWN experience…truth hurts.

See above. Neither muslims nor anyone on this forum is claiming that full tent-suits must be worn

it is you who talk about nakedness.and mini-skirts and open shirts…so i reply: either nakedness or tents?

. You yourself said you know Muslims who do not wear burqas. Most muslim women don’t; however, standards of dress in the muslim world are definitely more conservative than the US. If they can influence us to be a little more reserved, that’s a good thing.

in a muslim world you DONT have the choice of not wearing modestly…in US YOU HAVE.

 

[inJESUS]

JimG:

People will wear what they want to wear. It is quite possible to dress modestly without being completely covered up or wearing a shapeless garment. There is a lot of room between the extremes, in my opinion.

As to the driver’s license issue, I guess the question is whether the license photo will be able to serve it purpose of identification. That’s a legitimate state interest.

exactly…thats what we are saying.

 

[StMarkEofE]

pro_universal:

StMark, I think you are misreading BryP’s point. With the good comes the bad, and there is no denying that.

Sure, it’s great that we have freedoms, but we also have scandalously relaxed sexual and social norms. Do you think it’s good that the average European or American parent doesn’t find it unusual that a sixteen year old girl is having sex? Is it good that teens have almost unlimited freedom to spend time together while mom and dad are at work, and no one seems to have a problem with it?

Yes, we live in a great country here in the US and it gives us very good lives, but to put it beyond criticism is to concede defeat to the people who think it’s “backwards and oppressive” to forbid one’s teenage daughters from having “safe sex” with boys.

I dont like the relaxed sexual and social norms any more than you do. BUT, we do live in a democratic republic which has a Constitution and Bill of Rights. This means that there will be some who will take things to the extreme to the consternation of their neighbors but as long as its within the law and is on firm constitutional grounds it has to be protected. The good with the bad and we accept this as the price of freedom and democracy. The problem comes when a government is of men and not of laws which fail to apply equal rights to their citizens. There are many countries who get their laws from men but we here in the United States declare our rights come from God himself as is state in the constitution that ALL men (mankind) are created equal AND endownded by their CREATOR with certain inalienable RIGHTS include Life, Liberty and the Persuit of Happiness. Let us hope that no outside influences change this precious document.

 

[pro_universal]

JimG,

I agree on the license, and also on the clothing. My point is that if the designer styles become more conservative, that’s good, because then the “cool thing” will no longer be to show off every single possible piece of the body that law permits.

inJesus,

who said we accept this? or are you impying that “Christians” allow this? is the US a Christian country? do you want us to oblige them to live according to Jesus?

Yes, I’m implying that. The US is overwhelmingly Christian. No one bats an eye at two teens kissing in public, and I am called a dinosaur for being protective of female relatives.

If you are talking about muslim men staring then it is my OWN experience…truth hurts.

You need to get out more if you think only muslim men stare.

it is you who talk about nakedness.and mini-skirts and open shirts…so i reply: either nakedness or tents?

See above. You are the one claiming that all muslims and myself want women wearing tents. I’ve seen no claim that all muslims require this, nor am I claiming it myself. You supported my claim by mentioning your muslim friend. What I am saying is that having absolutely no rules as to what people can wear has led to more scandalous fashion in the west. That’s beyond dispute.

in a muslim world you DONT have the choice of not wearing modestly…in US YOU HAVE.

Well, you can’t go around naked or with breasts exposed in most parts of the US. Why is that limit any less wrong than one that says “you can’t go around with really tight, revealing clothing”?

We’ve bent over backwards for “individual choice” even when it’s harmful. I’m sorry, but community standards of decency should get some play too…I as a Catholic should not have to worry about having daughters who idolize half-naked pop stars, nor should I have to go to the store only to find skirts in 5 inch length for a 16 year old.

Taking a less tolerant stance towards casual sex and sexual displays in public is a good thing.

 

[inJESUS]

JimG,

I agree on the license, and also on the clothing. My point is that if the designer styles become more conservative, that’s good, because then the “cool thing” will no longer be to show off every single possible piece of the body that law permits.

agree…we all agreed on this. good.

inJesus,

Yes, I’m implying that. The US is overwhelmingly Christian. No one bats an eye at two teens kissing in public, and I am called a dinosaur for being protective of female relatives.

the US is Christian?? oh my…so if someone is called Mike or Jonathan he is Christian?? a Christian is someone who follows Jesus…if he doesnt, he is NOT Christian…thats the muslim propaganda that the West is Christian…

You need to get out more if you think only muslim men stare.

i never said ONLY muslim stare…i said : in my country, they stare even if they see modestly dressed women…

See above. You are the one claiming that all muslims and myself want women wearing tents.

show me where i said this.

Well, you can’t go around naked or with breasts exposed in most parts of the US. Why is that limit any less wrong than one that says “you can’t go around with really tight, revealing clothing”?

you know what modesty is don’t you?

We’ve bent over backwards for “individual choice” even when it’s harmful. I’m sorry, but community standards of decency should get some play too…I as a Catholic should not have to worry about having daughters who idolize half-naked pop stars, nor should I have to go to the store only to find skirts in 5 inch length for a 16 year old.

then either change country or go to shops where you find what you want…in the US you find everything and you can choose your own world…thats your merit in God’s eyes…i don’t think those who want to live according to Jesus have any problem.

Taking a less tolerant stance towards casual sex and sexual displays in public is a good thing.

agree.

 

[inJESUS]

gtg now…good night and Jesus’ blessings, love and peace be with all.

InJESUS.

 

[StMarkEofE]

pro_universal:

Yes, we live in a great country here in the US and it gives us very good lives, but to put it beyond criticism is to concede defeat to the people who think it’s “backwards and oppressive” to forbid one’s teenage daughters from having “safe sex” with boys.

Who is putting it beyond criticism? I see a lot of things wrong with this country, but by the same token I see a heck of a lot more good that this country is as well. The problem comes from those who have moved here from repressive countries such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran and the like and expects to see a similar form of government here. And when they dont they complain that the country should be more like theirs back home. Well we arent like them and hopefully never will.

Those people who you say are ‘backwards and oppressive’ will most likely continue to say that we are the great satan no matter what we do.

 

[Cyber_Knight]

BryPGuy89:

For starters I thought this was suppose to be a Christian forum. Friendly and open to people and their beleifs.

We are open to anything including dicussing their faith and ours.

Many here though often attack Muslims and the Islamic faith. Then they get angry and turn on those who defend or ask why they target Islam. There is a difference from making fun of something and sharing your opinions.

Attack Muslims? lol what did Justice2006 do with the OT?

Pro Universal, not being fair to Catholics? Please you people put shame to the Catholic faith. You openly and one sidedly attack the Islamic faith, which is against the Church, Her teachings, and above all Jesus’ will.

You think you are the only one who understand the church teaching? let me tell you gay, I was atheist and then protestant and then catholic and live in islamic state and I have seen they attack my church mentally and physically. Dont you think I have right to defend my faith here? by bringing some information that some of catholic may not know about Islam really is? get reall buddy!

The oppressed and attacked need defenders more then the accepted. Why discuss the protestants when they’re not so attacked as the Muslims.

I guess you should look for another protestants forums.

I for one have been very active in the protestant threads and use them often to make my points, which inJesus would know.

InJESUS and I think there is no problem with the protestants anywhere. Their reverends are not commaning to kill the infidels.

I am not a Muslim and would never consider being one, but I accept them as a people and live the way God/Jesus has told us to do, in loving and respect to others.

Agree with you

I have to ask how do you defend your attacks on Muslims, when it is contradictory to the Bible, the Church, and the teachings of Jesus?

Maybe you should be come a bit logic here. We are attacking the doctrines and its evil teaching not the person. We are not planning to kill the muslims, we are not planning to bomb the mosque, we are not threatening them.

 

[Eden]

Just on the driver’s license issue, I think a woman should not be allowed to wear a burqa for her photograph. I’m glad the case was dismissed. An image of the face is needed not just for state records but also to protect from identity theft. Imagine if you stole a purse of a woman who wore a burqa. You would have her checkbook, credit card and driver’s license. Let’s say that thief (man or woman) dressed in a burqa just with the slit showing their eyes. A criminal could cash a check that way and never be detected because they could easily look just like the image in the photograph.

Perhaps some women do choose to wear the burqa, but for many women it is oppression. In Afghanistan under the Taliban, women said that they routinely bumped into things in the street because it was difficult to see. The burqa there did not have a slit for the eyes; they have to look through a woven kind of fabric. Not sure what that’s called. It also gets very hot under there and you are not breathing fresh air. If a woman under the Taliban was caught on the street exposing their face even for a brief second to get air or to see better where they were going, they could be beaten on the street by men they don’t even know. In the hot weather it would be oppressive inside that garment with heat and stale air; not just figuratively oppressive.

Modesty in dress is one thing - but everything in moderation. You have nothing left to the imagination on one extreme and everything left to the imagination on the other. True modesty is somewhere in the middle.

 

[MugenOne]

It’s public safety. You have to show your face when you are getting a driver license or driving on the highway at 75 MPH. How the hell the police gonna know who is behind the driver’s seat if all you see is a black hole?

Cowardly terrorists had covered themselves up like ninja and blew up school kids and innocent people. That’s the police and goverment arguement. It’s public safety. Freedom has its limit.

MgenOne

 

[Cyber_Knight]

MugenOne:

It’s public safety. You have to show your face when you are getting a driver license or driving on the highway at 75 MPH. How the hell the police gonna know who is behind the driver’s seat if all you see is a black hole?

dont worry, most of them are deficient in intelligence so not many driving cars… (well if they follow the hadith)

Cowardly terrorists had covered themselves up like ninja and blew up school kids and innocent people. That’s the police and goverment arguement. It’s public safety. Freedom has its limit.
MgenOne

You got that right M1. Just wait a minute until somebody shouting out loud responding your post here.

 

[BryPGuy89]

StMarkEofE:

All well and good that they CHOSE not to get their license but again it is a choice not a obligation. I can respect that. Chosing what to wear is a lot more virtuous than being commanded to wear a certain uniform. Im sure there are Indian women who do get their license and do drive. I have seen them and continue to see them everyday.

No, Im not infering this at all. Freedom of religion is just that, but if you want to drive in the U.S. there is a resposibility to get your photo taken for identification. Your choice: Get a license and get your photo or dont drive. It is still your choice. We dont force drivers licenses on people here.

I honestly thought you lived in a muslim land because anyone living here in the U.S. and have been here a while wil surely see the points I was trying to make especially the democracy issues in previous posts. So you dont want to assimilate into our society? You want all the advantages of western democracies that are non existant in Muslim countries but yet you feel compelled to condem us while reaping the fruits of our republic. How interesting and sad.

Yes it is a choice, but why should we allow people to worship the devil at will, but when covering ones face is part of their religion we can’t make exceptions? Why do we have to impose restrictions on their beleifs, but lleave other things alone?

I don’t want to assimilate into a society of evil no. The American way of life is full of sin and greed and pride, I see it far too often to want to be part of it. I have lived in this country since birth and still don’t like it. Our history is full of evil and wrongs and our present is just as bad. I plan on leaving this country actually. Become a missionary and help others in needing countries. I reap only the benefits I sow, so I don’t fel bad about that.

 

[anna1978]

Personally, I think these fashion-designers like the ‘shock-value’ of Muslim-dress…it gets their merchandise in the papers, that’s all…

Anna x

 

[MugenOne]

The US and the West may be evil. The US and the West may be greedy, but there’s no other country that has the generousity and charity like the West. God would have destroyed the West already if it’s not for our kind hearts. The West gives more aids than any one country on Earth i.e. Tsunami 2005. Helps come in all forms not just money- military, civilian, public, and private people and organizations.

BryPGuy89:

Yes it is a choice, but why should we allow people to worship the devil at will, but when covering ones face is part of their religion we can’t make exceptions? Why do we have to impose restrictions on their beleifs, but lleave other things alone?

I don’t want to assimilate into a society of evil no. The American way of life is full of sin and greed and pride, I see it far too often to want to be part of it. I have lived in this country since birth and still don’t like it. Our history is full of evil and wrongs and our present is just as bad. I plan on leaving this country actually. Become a missionary and help others in needing countries. I reap only the benefits I sow, so I don’t fel bad about that.

 

[BryPGuy89]

inJESUS:

no one is talking about whether it is an obligation or not…as you have already read, we are all agaisnt extremism…modesty does NOT have to be like muslim outfit; as simple as this. If muslims say it is a muslim tradition then fine, but it is NOT about modesty.

It is about modesty though. We in America used to dress like this as well, but our freedom lead to extrmists and rights activists who got the rights and what not to wear more revealing clothes and other things. It is good to ahve a basis for your clothing type, a modest standard of clothing, not something that can change and shoreten/lessen with the changing generations, what is modest now in your eyes might seem opressive in the future when women wear practically nothing or something, no standard means it changes and can get very out of control.

 

[BryPGuy89]

inJESUS:

hateful? yea right…stop being either paranoic or pc…there is NOTHING hateful in : yes to modesty , no to extremism that is not about modesty.

You do have a malicious attitude towards the Islamic faith and their traditions in general. That is what I’m trying to say.

 

[BryPGuy89]

inJESUS:

BryPGuy89:

let her wear whatever she feels like…even her bed sheet…but if she wants to drive, she must have a photo…it’d be great if she killed someone with her car and no one could identify her coz of the burqa right??

She’d still be able to wear it if she were driving, what difference would it make.

 

[BryPGuy89]

pro_universal:

StMark, I think you are misreading BryP’s point. With the good comes the bad, and there is no denying that.

Sure, it’s great that we have freedoms, but we also have scandalously relaxed sexual and social norms. Do you think it’s good that the average European or American parent doesn’t find it unusual that a sixteen year old girl is having sex? Is it good that teens have almost unlimited freedom to spend time together while mom and dad are at work, and no one seems to have a problem with it?

Yes, we live in a great country here in the US and it gives us very good lives, but to put it beyond criticism is to concede defeat to the people who think it’s “backwards and oppressive” to forbid one’s teenage daughters from having “safe sex” with boys.

Right on target.

 

[BryPGuy89]

inJESUS:

show me where does the Church teach you not to give your opinion/experience…if you can’t find it, then do not bring the Church issue anytime you find a different opinion.

yes, in the church… correct, CUSTOM.
no…and it could apply now as well in a sacred place…furthermore, i dont think these people had a problem showing their face or hair to get a photo…thats the difference between modesty and non-sense extremism.

yea sure coz it is either nakedness or tents…you cant see in between…and as if these outfit is “Christian”…that how muslims are indoctrinated : don’t be like infidels who have no modesty ! thats sheer stupidity.

Yes to modesty…hair is not sexual…early Christian women used to cover a bit their hair in the church coz it is a sacred place…in the case of islam, hair is looked at as if it were sexual (ankles and arms as well)…thats pathetic extremism…these come out from someone who looked a women in a sexual way…

Your opinions are beyond opinions, you are to the point of schism with the CHurch, one can be racist in opinions, doesn’t mean that they should openly share and practice their opinion.
In Islam everyone is a part of the “church” and have the same religious restrictions as their leaders.
If I grew up in a society and grew acustom to covering my face or something I would not be willing to break that, for picture or not, I grew up in a family who said many things are wrong, so I don’t steal or curse or cheat, I wont just all of a sudden do that because someone says I needed to to get something I wanted.

I can see inbetween the two, but still I would prefere tents to sluts.

You forget culture differences, in some asian cultures hair is beyond sexual, or necks are protected, ankles are obsessions, groups here and there have differ ways of life something taboo for us is normal or extremely rare to them.

 

[BryPGuy89]

inJESUS:

who said we accept this? or are you impying that “Christians” allow this? is the US a Christian country? do you want us to oblige them to live according to Jesus?

For a country that is majoritaly CHristian it sure is more rampant here then other places, in the U.S. that is.