Congratulations To Pope Benedict For Having The Courage To State ("We Need To Save Ourselves From Self-Destructive Sexual Life Styles")

[Kaninchen]

Yes, indeed, same old, same old. Same as in the olden times of Sodom and Gomorrha.

There are no new sins. Only newer people committing same old, same old

Repeating the message is not an answer to questions about the medium.

 

[benedictus2]

Repeating the message is not an answer to questions about the medium.

The issue was the message not the medium.

 

[Kaninchen]

The issue was the message not the medium.

But, if everybody is ignoring the message, there may be something wrong with the medium.

 

[benedictus2]

But, if everybody is ignoring the message, there may be something wrong with the medium.

But that is precisely where you are wrong. Not everybody is ignoring the message. David McDonald is a homosexual who converted and is a staunch defender of the faith. Go check his website http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/index2.htm and read his testimony. And there are others like him.

There is nothing wrong with the medium and a lot wrong with the receiver. They would rather follow the dictates of the devil. And as I said in previous post, that is what free will is all about.

That is why we damn ourselves. God does not do that for us.

 

[Kaninchen]

But that is precisely where you are wrong. Not everybody is ignoring the message. David McDonald is a homosexual who converted and is a staunch defender of the faith. Go check his website http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/index2.htm and read his testimony. And there are others like him.

There is nothing wrong with the medium and a lot wrong with the receiver. They would rather follow the dictates of the devil. And as I said in previous post, that is what free will is all about.

That is why we damn ourselves. God does not do that for us.

Well, you’re winning in your own mind so I guess that’s ok.

 

[benedictus2]

Well, you’re winning in your own mind so I guess that’s ok.

I didn’t realize this was a competition.

 

[Kaninchen]

I didn’t realize this was a competition.

Neither did I, I just turned up to ask whether the approach taken was any use or not.

 

[benedictus2]

Neither did I, I just turned up to ask whether the approach taken was any use or not.

Okay.

 

[centurionguard]

It seems to me that Exalt has inadvertently hit upon one of the major problems we have had in the whole “gay marriage” debate. That is, that the democratic majorities that have protected marriage thus far are eroding and eventually, should things maintain their current course, such unions will be a fact of life in each of the fifty states. It is this stark reality that renders the Pope’s message so timely.

Exalt would have us recognize an equivalence between same-sex attractions and opposite-sex attractions, drawing on facial similarities between the passions both drives arouse. In drawing such equivalence, he then goes on to posit a right to pursue whatever one thinks will make one “happy” relying on a sort of maniacal individualism. Such an argument has a high degree of acceptability in today’s culture and renders arguments against his position to seem harsh, indifferent and needlessly puritanical.

Modern man has forgotten what sex is for. It is, in the end, the means by which the species is propagated. Such a potent faculty can never be said to belong to the individual. Its primary beneficiary is the culture, not the individuals involved in the act, and therefore the act is justly regulated by the state. Opposite-sex unions can, by their very nature, do what it is impossible for a same-sex union to do: beget and raise offspring for the benefit of the state. Since same-sex couples cannot perform this basic function, their relationships need no form of public sanction, much less subsidy.

Nursed on this constant need to “feel good” and proclaiming one’s own gratification the ultimate aim of any moral code, man has created for himself a self-centered view of himself and of sex. Sex becomes only a drive meant for one’s own temporary good end. In reality, sex exists for the benefit of the state. When same-sex couples can offer anything approaching a return on the investment they mean the state to make in them, then it will be time to more seriously consider their request. Until then, none of us should care how bad they feel.

EXCELLENT POST… Thank You:thumbsup:

 

[estesbob]

I’m unhappy at the moment. That’s true. But it’s probably not because I’m gay. I was just as unhappy being a conservative Catholic like you.

By conservative Catholic do you mean one who actually believes the teachings of the church?

Short answer: “SLAVERY MUST BE GOOD! 3,000 YEARS OF TRADITION SAY SO!!!” ← That’s basically your argument. If that’s all you got, go away.

What does slavery have to do with homosexual behavior? Hopefully you are not suggesting that one’s preferred method of engaging in sex is in any way akin to the ones race . Slavery was something that was forced upon people without their choice . Homosexual behavior is freely engaged in by those who participate in it.

Long answer: Gay relationships aren’t a big deal. They are no different from heterosexual ones. They have same joys and sorrows, the same ups and downs. Some relationships are fickle and short, and others are long and rich. Some gay people are really messed up, others are quite secure - just like straight people. Gay people worry about their relationship, children, growing old, and all that - just the same as straight people do.

We worry about what our crush thinks. We get nervous when asking them out, just like straight do. We wonder what date to take them on first, and when we sit down at a table in a restaurant, we wonder about where to sit - so as to not make the other feel uncomfortable, just like straight people do.

When break ups happen, we cry. When things go well, we’re happy.

My argument is simple: Romantic relationships are something that every human should be able to experience, if he so desires. Aaaand it’s such a big part of being human that is cruel to forbid them that opportunity (and all it’s joys and sorrows) because they just so happen to like dudes instead of gals (or vice versa).

I am sure that those who engage in homosexual behavior experience the full range of emotions just like all humans do. That does not, however, mean that homosexual behavior somehow becomes licit . One has actually nothing to do with the other.

Do I have any big insights that are different from 1000 B.C.E. to 1950 C.E.? Yeah. We’ve got LOTS of big ideas that are WAY different from those times. Slavery rings a big bell, our understanding of war rings a big bell, as do the western view of marriage, our understanding of race - and I could go on and on. Aaand on top of all of that, our western understanding of sexual orientation has changed.

I asked what new insights you have that would cause one to discard 3,000 years of consistent teachings on the sinfulness of homosexual behavior? You responded with the angst of homosexuals when dating and a bogus comparison of homosexual behavior to slavery The fact that the Western view of marriage may have changed(which is debatable) begs the smae question What new insights has the Western world had that makes them more credible in this issue than all that went before them? I believe you are engaging in presentism, that is the idea that we are the most enlightened generation to ever walk the face of the earth., that we are wiser and then more intelligent than all that went before us. Of course we are not and fortunately God entrusted the truth is Church. It is not up to every generation to redefine the truth. You are of course are free reject the truth but you have rejected it in such a manner that there is no reason anybody else should buy into your rationalization to justify your behavior.

 

[cristininha]

The Pope is wrong.

But, I’m glad he has the courage to rail against homosexuals (and others who don’t “follow God’s perfect plan for man”) especially on the day before Christmas.

The more the Pope talks about these things, the more the general public will realize how out of touch the teachings of Catholicism are with the real world. People will take a more serious look at this religion.

They’ve always thought that going to Church was harmless. But then they’ll read words like, “when the Church speaks of the nature of the human being as man and woman, [she] asks that this natural order be respected… if disregarded, [that] would be man’s self-destruction. The tropical rain forests deserve our protection, yes, but man does not deserve it less.” (That’s from his address earlier this week.)

This kind of position, however, is not new to Mr. Ratzinger. In another document, he spoke about violence against homosexuals and said, “the proper reaction to crimes committed against homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual condition is not disordered. When such a claim is made and when homosexual activity is consequently condoned, or when civil legislation is introduced to protect behavior to which no one has any conceivable right, neither the Church nor society at large should be surprised when other distorted notions and practices gain ground, and irrational and violent reactions increase.” (Source)

You see, most people don’t really think about the Church’s official teachings very often. They just go about their daily lives, going to Church, going to work, spending time with their families. But, when the Pope makes headlines, they might start listening. And I really do hope that they take the Pope’s words seriously. I hope they do some research.

When they do, this is what they’ll find: They’ll find that the Church believes that gay people are fundamentally disordered. They have some kind of sickness. Though their inclinations aren’t sinful, they’re a “moral evil.” Furthermore, the Church holds that the acceptance of their lifestyle contributes to a ‘degredation’ of God’s plan for ‘gender’ - which will eventually result in man’s self destruction. Also, the Church condemns gay marriage (under the state) and gay civil unions (under the state). The Church condemns gay couples who adopt, and would and has supported the break up those families.

That’s what they’ll discover. When they do, they’ll have to think critically about if they want to believe in that or not. What kind of evidence is there support the idea that gay couples are morally evil? What kind of evidence supports the idea that children raised by gay couples are any worse off than children raised in heterosexual homes? Do we want to be compelled to deny gay couples civil unions or marriage in the eyes of the secular law? If they have a friend, child, brother/sister, or parent who is gay, they’ll have to answer this question, which I think is most difficult: Can I look my loved one in the eye and tell him or her that his relationship will send him to hell? Do I really believe that a loving God would do that?

I’m glad the Pope is doing this. I really want him to continue making headlines. Every headline he makes is another victory for us. Keep going, Ratzinger. Keep it coming. You’re opening people’s eyes to your Church’s beliefs on homosexuality. The more that people see it, the more they’ll probably reject it.

I agree with you. The tendence is for people to realize the nastyness of the homophobic rhetoric. By focusing on homosexuals, the Pope can momentarily seem nasty, but give it some time, and after all the suffering his message instigates, homosexuals will be set free, and love will prevail.

 

[edwest2]

I can see the point of ‘preaching to the choir’ but, in what sense, does this sort of thing go beyond that?

I mean it just annoys gays (who, one would think, would be people who he would want to think again about their campaigns) and leaves the rest of us wondering why some Catholics seem quite so obsessed about naughty, naughty people having naughty, naughty sex in naughty, naughty ways.

Prior to only a few decades ago, the idea of Homosexual Marriage was not yet popularized. If it was an issue, it existed outside of mainstream culture. So, in a relatively short time, gay people want society to accept gay sex acts as normal. Further, in Massachussetts, they are exposing kids in grade school to state sponsored propaganda that is not “a parental notification issue” and parents cannot opt out their kids.

The gay agenda for what they call marriage has only been on the ballot recently. There are also plans to end discrimination based on the false and misleadingly labeled “gender identity.” So, if you’re your a guy and you want to go to work in a dress and high heels, no one can give you a hard time about it.

The Pope is aware of this and other issues associated with what homosexuals call “rights” but which go against the natural order. There are also plans for multiple conjugal partners once something called homosexual marriage is forced on people, especially the young.

The Pope rejects the idea that a person’s sexual identity is plastic and formed primarily by external societal forces. Freud is dead.

Peace,
Ed

 

[benedictus2]

I agree with you. The tendence is for people to realize the nastyness of the homophobic rhetoric. By focusing on homosexuals, the Pope can momentarily seem nasty, but give it some time, and after all the suffering his message instigates, homosexuals will be set free, and love will prevail.

The only bondage practicing homosexuals are in are or their own making. They are enslaved to lust. And should what you say come about, it will not be love that prevails but perversity. All courtesy of the devil, the enemy of LOVE.

 

[estesbob]

I agree with you. The tendence is for people to realize the nastyness of the homophobic rhetoric. By focusing on homosexuals, the Pope can momentarily seem nasty, but give it some time, and after all the suffering his message instigates, homosexuals will be set free, and love will prevail.

Homophobia is a dubious term that was created solely to try and stop any discussion of the sinfulness of homosexual behavior in its tracks. As we have seen in this thread those who believe that homosexual behavior is not sinful give no other reason than to claim that those who say it is are homophobic bigots. Of course if one is to buy into that argument that means for the last 3000 years all people of faith from Judaism on through Christianity(including the adherents of just about every other religion in the history of mankind) were bigots and it took the enlightened people of the latter part of the 21st century to figure this out. The arrogance of this position is stunning.

 

[RobertLGarrett]

Homophobia is a dubious term that was created solely to try and stop any discussion of the sinfulness of homosexual behavior in its tracks. As we have seen in this thread those who believe that homosexual behavior is not sinful give no other reason than to claim that those who say it is are homophobic bigots. Of course if one is to buy into that argument that means for the last 3000 years all people of faith from Judaism on through Christianity(including the adherents of just about every other religion in the history of mankind) were bigots and it took the enlightened people of the latter part of the 21st century to figure this out. The arrogance of this position is stunning.

I agree…it’s downright heterophobic.

 

[cristininha]

The only bondage practicing homosexuals are in are or their own making. They are enslaved to lust. And should what you say come about, it will not be love that prevails but perversity. All courtesy of the devil, the enemy of LOVE.

Love and Lust are equally available to everyone. They are not intrinsic traits of any sexual orientation. Homosexuals will be set free from the mistreatment given to them and their way of life. Everyone should be preparing to accept their freedom if love is to prevail.

 

[benedictus2]

Love and Lust are equally available to everyone. They are not intrinsic traits of any sexual orientation. Homosexuals will be set free from the mistreatment given to them and their way of life.

And I never said that heterosexuals are immune to lust.

Hey you are free to participate in perversion. That you are free to engaged in disordered sex does not make it any less disordered. And calling it love is a distortion of the word.

In the same way that it is common for people today to have extra marital sex, does not make extra marital sex right. Heterosexuals who engaged in extramarital sex are as enslaved by their sin as homosexuals are.

What you want to happen is for the Church to say it is no longer a sin. Morality is not subjective. We are not the moral arbiters. That recides firmly and solely under God’s domain.

It is immoral and disordered because God says it is.

Everyone should be preparing to accept their freedom if love is to prevail.

The day everyone accepted homesexual practices as the norm is the day that devil has prevailed. And the devil is the exact opposite of God who is LOVE.

 

[benedictus2]

Homophobia is a dubious term that was created solely to try and stop any discussion of the sinfulness of homosexual behavior in its tracks. As we have seen in this thread those who believe that homosexual behavior is not sinful give no other reason than to claim that those who say it is are homophobic bigots. Of course if one is to buy into that argument that means for the last 3000 years all people of faith from Judaism on through Christianity(including the adherents of just about every other religion in the history of mankind) were bigots and it took the enlightened people of the latter part of the 21st century to figure this out. The arrogance of this position is stunning.

True, true!

 

[AveSantaMaria]

**MIGHT IT BE ****SELF-HATE
OR LOVE?

Might not the massive HIV/AIDS crisis among gay men, the high suicide rates among gays and lesbians, the extreme promiscuity, and the effect of the gay lifestyle of the equal treatment of women suggest that homosexuality is linked to self-hate, not love?

David McWhirter and Andrew Mattison conducted a non-random study of 156 stable committed male homosexual couples. They found that more of the over 100 couples that had been together for more than 5 years had been sexually monogamous or exclusive. The authors, themselves a gay couple, argued that for male couples, sexual monogamy is a passing stage of homophobia and that many homosexuals separate emotional fidelity and sexual exclusivity. What matters for male couples is emotional not physical faithfulness. D McWhirter and A Mattison, “The Male Couple: How Relationships Develop” (Englewood Cliffs, Prentice-Hall)

According to San Francisco municipal STD clinic, gay-bisexual men report 7.9 different partners in 2 months in 2003. A graph with the average number of sex partners of gay/bisexual men, heterosexual men, and heterosexual women is there. Average number of partners for heterosexuals is around 5 in 12 months. Average number of partners for gay/bisexual men is around 20 and gay/bisexual men w/ HIV/AIDS have many more average partners than gay/bisexual men w/o HIV/AIDS. sfdph.org/dph/files/reports/StudiesData/STD/STD0408.pdf

NYC Study: Center for Disease Control and Michael-Callen-AUdre Lorde Community Health Center. Gay men w/ syphilis had about 16 partners in the prior 6 months while gay men w/o syphilis had about 11. *“What we found was that many MSM (Men who have sex with Men) both case and controls, were engaging in high risk sexual behaviors,” said Dr. Susan Blank, assistant commissioner of the city department’s Bureau of STD Control. “Specifically that meant sex with multiple, anonymous partners, unprotected anal intercourse, barebacking, recreational drug use before sex, and not discussing HIV status prior to sex with a partner.” thebody.com/content/art28966.html

Bell and Weinberg reported evidence of widespread sexual compusion among homosexual men. 83% of the homosexual men surveyed estimated they had had sex with 50 or more partners in their lifetime, 43% estimated they had sex with 500 or more partners; 28% with 1,000 or more partners. Bell and Weinberg p 308

The same study revealed that homosexual men have to a great extent separated sexuality from relationship. The survey showed 79% of the respondents saying that over half of their sexual partners were strangers. Seventy percent said that over half of their sexual partners were people with whom they had sex only once. Bell and Weinberg pp. 308-309.

In their study of the sexual profiles of 2,583 older homosexuals published in the Journal of Sex Research, Paul Van de Ven et al. found that “the modal range for number of sexual partners ever [of homosexuals] was 101-500.” In addition, 10.2 percent to 15.7 percent had between 501 and 1000 partners. A further 10.2 percent to 15.7 percent reported having had more than 1000 liftime sexual partners. Paul Van de Ven et al., “A Comparative Demographic and Sexual Profile of Older Homosexuality Active Men,” Journal of Sex Research 34 (1997): 354

A survey conducted by the homosexual magazine Genre found that 24 percent of the respondents said they had had more than 100 sexual partners in their lifetime. The magazine noted that several respondents suggested including a category of those who had more than 1,000 sexual partners. “Sex Survey Results,” Genre (October 1996) quoted in “Survey Finds 40 percent of Gay Men Have Had More Than 40 Sex Partners,” Lambda Report, January 1998, p. 20

Reference Materials Used to Compile Research Evidence on the Gay Lifestyle
exodusglobalalliance.org/ishomosexualityhealthyp60.php
catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0086.html
catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0003.html

May the Holy Spirit through Mary grace us with the gifts that we desperately need! May the LOVE and MERCY of the Sacred Heart of Jesus be known, loved, believed, adored, and respected by all, in all creation, for all time!! May the WONDERS of the Immaculate Heart of Mary be known, loved, venerated, believed, and respected throughout all time, in all places, by all souls!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. **

 

[AveSantaMaria]

Furthermore, societies that have legalized gay marriage have seen a decrease in traditional marriage so that 60% of children are born to unwed mothers and more alternative forms of marriage are pushed for such as polygamy and the addition of a “surrogate mother” to a marriage. catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/ho0079.html

In 1973, Robert Spitzer was the psychiatrist behind removing homosexuality from a list of mental disorders. He now believes that gay people can change through the results of his research. He is Chief of Biometrics Research and Professor of Psychiatry at Columbia University. catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/ho0042.html

May the Holy Spirit through the Immaculate Heart of Mary grace us with the gifts that we most desperately need such as wisdom and courage!! May the LOVE and MERCY of the Sacred Heart of Jesus be adored, glorified, loved, revered, believed, known, respected, and venerated both now and forever, for all time, in all places, by all souls!! May the WONDERS of the Immaculate Heart of Mary be loved, respected, known, believed, and venerated in all creation, by all souls, throughout all time!! AMEN!! AMEN!! AMEN!!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *