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benedictus2
Guest
Great Post:thumbsup:
Congratulations To Pope Benedict For Having The Courage To State ("We Need To Save Ourselves From Self-Destructive Sexual Life Styles")
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JReducation
Guest
Those who see this message as anti gay person are reading into it what was not meant to be. The message was very clear.
We make great efforts to protect the planet, because we believe that creation is a gift. The Holy Father raises a very important question, “Do human beings deserve less?”
Human beings are part of creation, should we not be a matter of concern? He calls for a Human Ecology. In his call for Human Ecology, which actually is a real science that began at Cornell University with the writings of Urie Bronfenbrenner, the Holy Father points out that we attempt to take control of our lives and build them according to our plan, which is not always consistent with the Divine plan. He mentions gender as an example. But it was not mentioned as an attack on people with homosexual orientation. It was mentioned as a fact.
Gender plays an important role in creation and was created by Divine plan. We have obscured the role of gender and we have to protect it.
It is understandable that we began to protect the rights of those who were abused or ignored because of gender: woman, gays and transgender people. The Church is not denouncing our protection of these persons from abuse.
As usual, when man takes on a campaign without counting on the Divine plan, he often obscures his own vision. It is from this that we need to be saved. We have obscured our vision of gender as we try to protect people’s rights to live with dignity and have the same social, economic, political and educational advantages as others. These advantages are necessary and are God-given human rights. However, there are other agendas that have slipped into this movement that are not included in the Divine plan of creation.
Among those are homosexual acts, abortion, extramarital sex, promiscuity, and artifical birth control for starters. The promotion of these does not enhance the rights of the individual in society or protect his rights to eduction, economic progress, healthcare, political participation in society, participation in the sacramental life of the Church, and the right to salvation.
For those who may want to find a bone to pick with the Pope, they should also remember that the Holy See sent a message to the nations of the world regarding the criminalization of homosexuality.
Though she does not support the statement that is being prepared by the United Nations, because it goes futher than decriminalization, it promotes antagonism against those nations that do not approve same-sex marriage, the Church did say that it does not approve of criminalizing homosexuality.
If we’re going to look at the Church’s statements about gender and homosexuality, let’s be very objective and look at them all, rather than read more into this statement than was meant to be read.
Fraternally,
JR
We make great efforts to protect the planet, because we believe that creation is a gift. The Holy Father raises a very important question, “Do human beings deserve less?”
Human beings are part of creation, should we not be a matter of concern? He calls for a Human Ecology. In his call for Human Ecology, which actually is a real science that began at Cornell University with the writings of Urie Bronfenbrenner, the Holy Father points out that we attempt to take control of our lives and build them according to our plan, which is not always consistent with the Divine plan. He mentions gender as an example. But it was not mentioned as an attack on people with homosexual orientation. It was mentioned as a fact.
Gender plays an important role in creation and was created by Divine plan. We have obscured the role of gender and we have to protect it.
It is understandable that we began to protect the rights of those who were abused or ignored because of gender: woman, gays and transgender people. The Church is not denouncing our protection of these persons from abuse.
As usual, when man takes on a campaign without counting on the Divine plan, he often obscures his own vision. It is from this that we need to be saved. We have obscured our vision of gender as we try to protect people’s rights to live with dignity and have the same social, economic, political and educational advantages as others. These advantages are necessary and are God-given human rights. However, there are other agendas that have slipped into this movement that are not included in the Divine plan of creation.
Among those are homosexual acts, abortion, extramarital sex, promiscuity, and artifical birth control for starters. The promotion of these does not enhance the rights of the individual in society or protect his rights to eduction, economic progress, healthcare, political participation in society, participation in the sacramental life of the Church, and the right to salvation.
For those who may want to find a bone to pick with the Pope, they should also remember that the Holy See sent a message to the nations of the world regarding the criminalization of homosexuality.
Though she does not support the statement that is being prepared by the United Nations, because it goes futher than decriminalization, it promotes antagonism against those nations that do not approve same-sex marriage, the Church did say that it does not approve of criminalizing homosexuality.
If we’re going to look at the Church’s statements about gender and homosexuality, let’s be very objective and look at them all, rather than read more into this statement than was meant to be read.
Fraternally,
JR
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benedictus2
Guest
BRAVO!!!:clapping:Those who see this message as anti gay person are reading into it what was not meant to be. The message was very clear.
We make great efforts to protect the planet, because we believe that creation is a gift. The Holy Father raises a very important question, “Do human beings deserve less?”
.
.
.
If we’re going to look at the Church’s statements about gender and homosexuality, let’s be very objective and look at them all, rather than read more into this statement than was meant to be read.
Fraternally,
JR
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Fran65
Guest
Freud believed that homosexuality is abnormal and argued that it was the result of a failure to develop a normal gender identity. He also believed that children need two parents, one male and one female. In addition he felt that there are specific gender roles for men and women that are biologically determined.
Although he argued that childhood experiences are critical in the development of personality, he also believed in the major role of biology in influencing our behaviour.
He may have been a Jewish atheist, but in many ways he agrees with Catholic teaching!
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cristininha
Guest
The UN Declaration that the Pope hasn’t supported is the following:
*We have the honour to make this statement on human rights, sexual orientation and gender identity on behalf of Albania, Andorra, Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Brazil, Bulgaria, Canada, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chile, Colombia, Croatia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Ecuador, Estonia, Finland, France, Gabon, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Guinea-Bissau, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Mauritius, Mexico, Montenegro, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Paraguay, Poland, Portugal, Romania, San Marino, Sao Tome and Principe, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Timor-Leste, United Kingdom, Uruguay, and Venezuela.
1 - We reaffirm the principle of universality of human rights, as enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights whose 60th anniversary is celebrated this year, Article 1 of which proclaims that “all human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights”;
2 - We reaffirm that everyone is entitled to the enjoyment of human rights without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status, as set out in Article 2 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Article 2 of the International Covenants on Civil and Political, Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, as well as in article 26 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights;
3 - We reaffirm the principle of non-discrimination which requires that human rights apply equally to every human being regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity;
4 - We are deeply concerned by violations of human rights and fundamental freedoms based on sexual orientation or gender identity;
5 - We are also disturbed that violence, harassment, discrimination, exclusion, stigmatisation and prejudice are directed against persons in all countries in the world because of sexual orientation or gender identity, and that these practices undermine the integrity and dignity of those subjected to these abuses;
6 - We condemn the human rights violations based on sexual orientation or gender identity wherever they occur, in particular the use of the death penalty on this ground, extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions, the practice of torture and other cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment or punishment, arbitrary arrest or detention and deprivation of economic, social and cultural rights, including the right to health;
7 - We recall the statement in 2006 before the Human Rights Council by fifty four countries requesting the President of the Council to provide an opportunity, at an appropriate future session of the Council, for discussing these violations;
8 - We commend the attention paid to these issues by special procedures of the Human Rights Council and treaty bodies and encourage them to continue to integrate consideration of human rights violations based on sexual orientation or gender identity within their relevant mandates;
9 - We welcome the adoption of Resolution AG/RES. 2435 (XXXVIII-O/08) on “Human Rights, Sexual Orientation, and Gender Identity” by the General Assembly of the Organization of American States during its 38th session in 3 June 2008;
10 - We call upon all States and relevant international human rights mechanisms to commit to promote and protect human rights of all persons, regardless of sexual orientation and gender identity;
11 - We urge States to take all the necessary measures, in particular legislative or administrative, to ensure that sexual orientation or gender identity may under no circumstances be the basis for criminal penalties, in particular executions, arrests or detention.
12 - We urge States to ensure that human rights violations based on sexual orientation or gender identity are investigated and perpetrators held accountable and brought to justice;
13 - We urge States to ensure adequate protection of human rights defenders, and remove obstacles which prevent them from carrying out their work on issues of human rights and sexual orientation and gender identity.
Source: ilga.org/news_results.asp?LanguageID=1&FileCategory=44&ZoneID=7&FileID=1211
*
This declaration above is so basic, simple and fair that it’s difficult to understand why people wouldn’t support it. Perhaps what you are doing is exactly the same you are accusing other people of doing with the Pope’s declarations. Aren’t some people reading too much into it?
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estesbob
Guest
The devil is in the details. Heres a paragraph from the above mentioned resolution(interesting they refer to adopting it as part of this resolution but dont say what it supports)
That Member States recognize the existence of diversity in sexual orientation, gender identity and expression among young persons. This includes recognizing the rights to change name and sex in our legal documents without requiring genital mutilation.
Note that once a person changes their sex on their Birth certificate there is no way to deny them marriage as it would no longer be “same sex”. Other pats of the resolution you posted are so vague that there is no doubt that homosexual marriage proponents will ue them to claim it requires homosexual marriage. Wsiely the United States did not sign either of these resoloutions.
I found it very ironic that one of the signeess was Cuba where Homosexuals are beaten , imprisioned and sometimes executed for the sexual beahavior.
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cristininha
Guest
I cannot understand why the above declaration is evil, but I can understand why, and by the same token, some people see the Pope’s declarations as having evil messages in its details and inbetween the lines, since it’s based on scriptures interpreted as condemning homosexuals to death, and one could go no further than that with evil, and would also justify a non-supportive approach to the UN declaration.
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estesbob
Guest
I didnt say it was evil-I just pointed out there was more than ample reason for the Pope and the Untited States to reject this resolution.Neither rejected it for its call for ending vilolence and discrimination against homosexuals-they rejected it because of its tactic endorsement of same sex marriages.
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JReducation
Guest
The Vatican did not say that the declaration of the UN was evil. In fact, the Vatican did agree with every statement regarding abuse, brutality, and criminalization of homosexual people and homosexual activity. The Vatican said that the Church has already made this statement in the CCC. We may not exercise that kind of injustice.
The problem with the UN declaration is that it does not just promote decriminalization of homosexuality and homosexual activity. It also endorses same sex unions, change of name and gender for Transgender people, and by linking it to the Declaration of Human Rights, it makes the natons who do not sign it appear to be against human rights. In essence it stirs up a hornets nest.
If the UN declaration had been a condemnation of those laws against homosexuality and homosexual behaviour alone, the Church would have supported it. The Church is against those laws. They are unjust. They are the kind of law that allowed Hitler to kill more than one million gay people for their sexual orientation. That kind of law also allows Muslim nations to kill and torture homosexuals, as well as some Communist nations. Basically, those laws legalize hate crimes.
But the UN declaration went beyond legalized hate crimes. The Church could not cooperate with that.
JR
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centurionguard
Guest
In light of many thought provoking post’s here in this thread I think it’s very important NOT to lose sight of the overall message our Holy Father was trying to get across to ALL Catholics…Married, Single, Heterosexual, Homosexual, Lesbian, Transgendered, and Asexual human beings. Surely the Holy Father’s intention was not to single-out any particular group. Extremely few people in this world could stand before God Almighty and claim unequivocally that they have not been guilty of some form of sexual aberration whether in our past lives and even presently now. Humans by nature are creatures of sexuality…(Our Lower Nature). Human Sexuality has absolutely nothing to do with the human soul seeking spiritual union with God. (The Human Soul) opposes the ways of the Human Flesh and vice-versa. WE MUST (((“ALL”))) STRIVE TO SAVE OURSELVES FROM SELF-DESTRUCTIVE SEXUAL LIFE STYLES. Our Biggest Enemy Is Not Satan Himself…But Our Very Own Human Flesh and it’s attachment to feeding the lusts of five primitive human senses.
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cristininha
Guest
The declaration does not have anything to do with same sex marriages.
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edwest2
Guest
The United States certainly felt that the wording could allow for that and refused to sign.
nytimes.com/2008/12/19/world/19nations.html?_r=2&ref=todayspaper
Peace,
Ed
nytimes.com/2008/12/19/world/19nations.html?_r=2&ref=todayspaper
Peace,
Ed
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That_one_guy
Guest
I’m sorry.But,I find the title of this thread to be funny.As if it takes guts to say the same thing that they’ve been saying for 2000 yrs.
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benedictus2
Guest
Yes it does take guts. When you think of the opposition and pressure from within and without the Church, when you think that a lot of other Christian denominations have buckled under the pressure, then it takes guts to stay true to Christ’s message and not compromise.I’m sorry.But,I find the title of this thread to be funny.As if it takes guts to say the same thing that they’ve been saying for 2000 yrs.
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edwest2
Guest
There are too many Catholics who do not follow Church teaching regarding sexuality. That’s a fact. I don’t think the Pope enjoys catching flak for saying the right thing either.
Peace,
Ed
Peace,
Ed
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TShawn
Guest
It’s been awhile since I’ve posted because I’ve been off-line. My two cents regarding the Pope’s Christmas address is this;
I find it to be consistant with the Church’s tradition and teachings. However that does not mean that I agree with it.
I first wish to say that I deplore the angry and hostile reaction to the Holy Father. I personally bear him no ill will or thought. He is in my prayers as well as I’m most likely in his.
That being said, I do wish that he and the rest of the magisterium would enter into dialogue with transgendered people such as myself. I was born female and due to hormone treatments now live as male and am much better off for it. My earlies memories of myself (at around age 4) were that something was definately wrong or rather, not right about me. I was confused that I felt myself to be male and yet inhabited a female body. This led to great shame over my body for many, many years. I could not even bear the thought of seeing myself unclothed for even a minute for years as well. There is so much more to my story that I cannot post for lack of space or appropriateness to this thread. But what I just mentioned is only some of the reasons I pursued transition and I have been free from alcoholism ever since. Incidently, there is no way I could ever return to living as “female” ever again. There is scientific research that shows a difference in the brain structure of transgendered people like myself. I do not feel I chose the condition, only the solution. I cannot imagine this being immoral or against God. I do not believe that there is only “Male” or “Female”. These two categories are the majority and always will be whether I exist or not, and no, I do not believe my condition will destroy the human race as the Pope’s statement seems to imply. Rather, by not procreating, I am preserving it…
I struggle to live my faith in the Catholic Church every day and it gets harder but I’ve not given up yet. Ok, that’s more than two cents. I’m generous that way!
Shawn
I find it to be consistant with the Church’s tradition and teachings. However that does not mean that I agree with it.
I first wish to say that I deplore the angry and hostile reaction to the Holy Father. I personally bear him no ill will or thought. He is in my prayers as well as I’m most likely in his.
That being said, I do wish that he and the rest of the magisterium would enter into dialogue with transgendered people such as myself. I was born female and due to hormone treatments now live as male and am much better off for it. My earlies memories of myself (at around age 4) were that something was definately wrong or rather, not right about me. I was confused that I felt myself to be male and yet inhabited a female body. This led to great shame over my body for many, many years. I could not even bear the thought of seeing myself unclothed for even a minute for years as well. There is so much more to my story that I cannot post for lack of space or appropriateness to this thread. But what I just mentioned is only some of the reasons I pursued transition and I have been free from alcoholism ever since. Incidently, there is no way I could ever return to living as “female” ever again. There is scientific research that shows a difference in the brain structure of transgendered people like myself. I do not feel I chose the condition, only the solution. I cannot imagine this being immoral or against God. I do not believe that there is only “Male” or “Female”. These two categories are the majority and always will be whether I exist or not, and no, I do not believe my condition will destroy the human race as the Pope’s statement seems to imply. Rather, by not procreating, I am preserving it…
I struggle to live my faith in the Catholic Church every day and it gets harder but I’ve not given up yet. Ok, that’s more than two cents. I’m generous that way! Shawn
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Other_Eric
Guest
The Pope wisely refrains from “entering into a dialogue with transgendered people” for the same reason I decline to engage the babbling maniac on the corner of the street who insists that aliens run the federal government. There’s little point in attempting conversation with people who have allowed their own delusions and disorders to overtake them in such a fashion.It’s been awhile since I’ve posted because I’ve been off-line. My two cents regarding the Pope’s Christmas address is this;
I find it to be consistant with the Church’s tradition and teachings. However that does not mean that I agree with it.
I first wish to say that I deplore the angry and hostile reaction to the Holy Father. I personally bear him no ill will or thought. He is in my prayers as well as I’m most likely in his.
That being said, I do wish that he and the rest of the magisterium would enter into dialogue with transgendered people such as myself. I was born female and due to hormone treatments now live as male and am much better off for it. My earlies memories of myself (at around age 4) were that something was definately wrong or rather, not right about me. I was confused that I felt myself to be male and yet inhabited a female body. This led to great shame over my body for many, many years. I could not even bear the thought of seeing myself unclothed for even a minute for years as well. There is so much more to my story that I cannot post for lack of space or appropriateness to this thread. But what I just mentioned is only some of the reasons I pursued transition and I have been free from alcoholism ever since. Incidently, there is no way I could ever return to living as “female” ever again. There is scientific research that shows a difference in the brain structure of transgendered people like myself. I do not feel I chose the condition, only the solution. I cannot imagine this being immoral or against God. I do not believe that there is only “Male” or “Female”. These two categories are the majority and always will be whether I exist or not, and no, I do not believe my condition will destroy the human race as the Pope’s statement seems to imply. Rather, by not procreating, I am preserving it…
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TShawn
Guest
Other Eric,
I think you have a point. I have read many of your posts, and you seem to be suffering from the delusion of being a Christian. Please do not reply to any more of my posts. I do not wish to engage in conversation with people who are unkind and wish to show no understanding of other people’s sufferings. I can’t think of a more un-Christ like attitude. Understanding other people’s sufferings does not mean that one must agree with the person who suffers but a little charity goes a very long way and I see none of that reflected in any of your posts! - TShawn
I think you have a point. I have read many of your posts, and you seem to be suffering from the delusion of being a Christian. Please do not reply to any more of my posts. I do not wish to engage in conversation with people who are unkind and wish to show no understanding of other people’s sufferings. I can’t think of a more un-Christ like attitude. Understanding other people’s sufferings does not mean that one must agree with the person who suffers but a little charity goes a very long way and I see none of that reflected in any of your posts! - TShawn
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benedictus2
Guest
In Psalm 139 it says, God knitted us in our mother’s womb. So God made a drastic terrible mistake with you which you felt you yourself ought to correct?
You know better than God? That’s what Adam and Eve thought as well when they ate the forbiden fruit.
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Holly3278
Guest
The way the mainstream press has handled this just thoroughly disgusts me. They act as though we are bigots just because our pope has stood up against homosexuality and other deviant forms of sexuality. Personally, I applaud the pope and if I am going to be called a bigot for that then so be it.
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