Conservative faction attempt to deflect sex abuse scandal

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I don’t think anyone has said that there aren’t more issues in this crisis. What is being said is that this is not solely a paedophilia issue. You have created a strawman argument to advance your opinion.
Have you listed to the homilies this past week? It’s not my argument. It’s not my strawman. There is a concerted effort by the conservative faction of the Catholic Church to paint this problem as a homosexual issue.

Are you saying you agree it is not a homosexual problem? If that is a strawman, I would love for you to knock it down.
But if you are saying homosexuality is a facet to the problem, why won’t you say heterosexuality is also a facet to the problem? 16% of these attacks were on female victims. No one says that.

And, let’s be fair here, how often are male priest actually alone around young girls compared to boys? I wouldn’t be surprised if that if you knew statistically the number of attacks relative to the OPPORTUNITY to commit those attacks, the rate of attacks on girls is just as high, maybe even higher. But that’s not even core to my point.
 
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I tried to say two things: 1. that this is a predator problem, not a homosexual problem, so I don’t know why you are arguing with me about that;

and 2. that the lax attitudes were not a “driver” of sexual abuse.

The perpetrators were in no way driven to do what they did by lax attitudes; they allowed themselves to be driven by their own inclinations to evil. They would have chosen some other environment if the hierarchy had followed the Church’s rules.
 
I’d like to give an example of why this angers me so much. Consider this example:

There are 100 cars in a parking lot. Half are red, half are blue. A percentage of all the cars are under a car port, say 40%.

That day, there is a hailstorm. 40 of the blue cars are damaged, but only 20 of the red cars are damaged.
Someone that hates the color blue shouts out “We have a blue car problem! If we allowed only red cars, there would be no problem, or it would be much less of a problem!”

Now it is certainly interesting that so many blue cars were damaged. It could be a coincidence, but maybe blue is in style so younger people buy blue, and the older people who own red cars can afford the car port. Who knows.

The point is that clearly, there is no “blue” problem. It could be not enough carports spots. It could be not enough bad weather warning. But it’s obviously not BECAUSE the cars are blue. Someone obviously has an agenda. Red cars still get damaged too.

Stop deflecting! Like I said above, the Bishops covering this up are not gay, right?
 
There were 500 sexual attacks by male priests on female children in the 6 Pennsylvania dioceses in the 30 years studied. That’s FIVE HUNDRED.
Is that (500) the number that the grand jury came up with or the number extrapolated from the estimate that the number the grand jury concluded with was only 1/3 of the crimes committed?

If the latter, please furnish the information which leads you to triple the number of crimes committed.
 
There were 500 sexual attacks by male priests on female children in the 6 Pennsylvania dioceses in the 30 years studied. That’s FIVE HUNDRED.
That is a horrific disaster. Why wasn’t something done about this? Children’s lives ruined by priests? And just recently we read in the news about police videotaping two priests in Miami having sex in full view of children? I haven’t heard of Protestant clergy doing perverted things like this while the police are video taping them and children are about? What is going on?
 
I have come to believe we are in the last days. These things are unbelievable. If Christians of elder days came back to life they’d get heart attacks. Is it that Jesus wants to prove the Church is the church by demonstrating the impossible? Ie saving her from a quagmire that nothing else can save her from? I have suffered so much about the church over the last three years. I nearly left. For a good while I stopped attending church. Whatever is going on, this is beyond us now. Godspeed. How unlucky we are that we have lived in an age like this, to witness these things.
 
The fact of the matter is, homosexuality presents a near occasion for sin in men living closely with other men trying to be celibate. We don’t send priests off to live closely with nuns. Why? Because that would be a near occasion for sin for most heterosexual men. Gay men should not be in seminary living 247 with other men, especially other gay men. Not if celibacy is something we or they take seriously. That’s just good sense.
 
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That is a horrific disaster. Why wasn’t something done about this? Children’s lives ruined by priests? And just recently we read in the news about police videotaping two priests in Miami having sex in full view of children? I haven’t heard of Protestant clergy doing perverted things like this while the police are video taping them and children are about? What is going on?
Protestant clergy do all the same stuff. It just gets less press because they usually aren’t part of some giant international high profile organization like the Church. You are living under a rock if you think Protestants and Jewish rabbis also do not commit sex abuse and sex crimes.




https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...he-evangelical-church/?utm_term=.4ae0e72e5315

https://ir.library.louisville.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3022&context=etd
 
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how often are male priest actually alone around young girls compared to boys?
There are more girl altar servers in my church than boys, and it’s been that way for a long time - pretty much ever since girls were allowed to be altar servers.

If you are trying to say that the targets are based solely on opportunity then I would have expected the overwhelming majority of assaults to have been on women, as just about every parish I have been in has been staffed mostly with women,.
 
Actually there are articles alleging that heterosexual Catholic clergy sexually abusing teen and adult women is a major problem, but is hushed up and “excused” because it is heterosexual.

I am aware of one case in the last few years where a priest (who later claimed to be a female lesbian in a priest’s body) was arrested for posing as a teen girl and soliciting teen girls online, and of another case where a priest was removed by the bishop for sexually harassing an adult female staff member.
 
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Well, I have read of some seminaries where overt openly homosexual conduct was both widespread and tolerated. I haven’t read of seminaries that tolerated widespread open heterosexual fornication. If the problem starts in seminaries, it seems that seminaries ought to be able to figure out whether they are dealing with widespread unchastity and put a stop to it.
 
There is no such thing as “heterosexuality” there is just normal. Homosexuality is gravely disordered and possibly evil in and of itself.
I see. So heterosexual rape is “normal”. Homosexual rape is “gravely disordered”. I rest my case with this one.

However, just to add another dimension -
If 80% of the attacks were oral sex, does the Church have an “oral sex” problem?

Were the bishops that covered up these attacks all gay too?
 
If you are trying to say that the targets are based solely on opportunity then I would have expected the overwhelming majority of assaults to have been on women, as just about every parish I have been in has been staffed mostly with women,.
This is why the Catholic Church is dying:
  1. 3000 times, a CHILD was attacked/raped by Catholic priests in part of Pennsylvania over about 30 years, primarily 1970-2000.
  2. The victims include both male and females. 500 of these attacks were on girls.
  3. Catholics claim it is a homosexual problem
  4. One Catholic says it is a homosexual problem because most workers in parishes are adult women, and therefore we should have seen more woman victims if it wasn’t about the homosexuals.
  5. Another Catholic sees a lot of altar girls Sunday morning, so it must be about the gay priests since there should have been more girls raped. This being stated despite altar girls not being approved by Holy See until 2001.
  6. Another Catholic says homosexual rape is deviant, but heterosexual rape is not.
Clearly, 500 attacks is not enough to consider it a “heterosexual” problem.

Personally, I realize that the problem is about the perverts that now infest the priesthood and prey on children, and the weak-minded, cowardly Catholics leaders that ignore, enable, and hide them.

If it makes you sleep better, go ahead and claim that source of the problem is a bunch of adult gay men having consensual sex in the seminary. But you won’t fix the problem, and you will just make the rest of the world despise Catholics even more - and deservedly so.
 
I disagree with that poster on what he said about homosexuality being possibly evil in and of itself. That is completely wrong in Catholic teaching. We are all disordered in some way because of the fall of Adam. That’s why we all sin and that’s why grace came to the world. It is better to see our earthly condition as a broken or ill condition rather than an inherently “evil” one. That’s not true at all and is not Catholic. Sin is the only evil.

But it is not true that he has said rape is normal either, whether heterosexual or homosexual rape. You do yourself a disservice when you blatantly put horrible things into the mouths of others, create a major strawman and not a benign one either. He said heterosexuality was normal, not heterosexual rape.

You also have not presented any facts or counterfacts supporting your claim about opportunity having been unequal or skewered towards young men: you implied the predators had more access to boys than girls, these posters disagreed and suggested they had more access to girls. None of you have presented any evidence for your assumptions however.

Secondly, 2,500 out of 3,000 indicates something to me, given most were young men rather than children and given the smaller percentage of same-sex attracted individuals, even with the highest estimates of 40% among the priesthood.

It is significant especially given that the church has had a standard rule excluding from the priesthood people still experiencing strong same sex attraction tendencies, which was thwarted at about the same period/decades as all these ugly scandals were brewing under our noses and waiting to blow up in the 2000s.

Lastly, it is simply an inconvenient truth that the Catholic teaching on homosexuality is that it is gravely disordered. You can’t therefore be surprised that people then see this greatly disproportionate outcome in the nature and targets of the attacks, and make the connection to the church teaching on homosexuality and the rule to not admit to seminaries people who suffered from it until they had greatly overcome it.

Your entire approach is based on your clear belief that homosexuality is perfectly normal, on par with heterosexuality, which of course is contrary to Catholic belief. These two different assumptions will frame how you and “the conservatives” approach the data coming out of these investigations.

You will continue to be exasperated because your position requires them to first adopt your basic epistemology on same sex attraction: that it is as normal and ordered as opposite sex attraction. That’s the fundamental disagreement here, so no use wasting time on the natural conclusions stemming from it.
 
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The only person deflecting anything here is you. Over 80% of victims were male, assaulted by males. This is clearly a problem dealing with homosexuality, and yes mixed with abuse of power, yet all you can do is point to the 19% as evidence that it can’t possibly have anything to do with homosexuality. That is plainly absurd and flies in the face of all the facts.

Your blue car -red car analogy has nothing to do with anything. A random sample of parishioners were not just randomly assaulted. For one, if this was true the male-female ratio would be considerably more even. Furthermore, as the majority of the priesthood is in fact “straight”, we would statistically expect more heterosexual abuse. And yet it is overwhelmingly homosexual. But most importantly, all of the victims were deliberately chosen, targeted, and assaulted. This was a deliberate act. You act like the whole abuse problem boils down to a Priest saying, “oh look who walked by my office, let me just jump out and rape them. Man I sure have had a lot of boys lately, weird”. Frankly the insistence that this is all just random opportunity is insulting.
 
You continue to use the inflated numbers you theorized in your first post despite not giving us any evidence for inflating the numbers this way.

1000 young people, fewer than 200 of them girls, were found to have been sexually assaulted by the PA grand jury.

That there were more is very likely. Gratuitously inflating the numbers only makes you seem unreliable and thus weakens unreliable.
 
You continue to use the inflated numbers you theorized in your first post despite not giving us any evidence for inflating the numbers this way.

1000 young people, fewer than 200 of them girls, were found to have been sexually assaulted by the PA grand jury.

That there were more is very likely. Gratuitously inflating the numbers only makes you seem unreliable and thus weakens unreliable.
The study said the ACTUAL numbers extrapolate to triple those presented because of lack of time required to document and investigate the cases. And that’s only including the cases that they had evidence for. It could be higher than even that. This was stated directly in the report.

In other words, the investigators were given a year, and they only got through a third of all the evidence and cases they had in possession. But they wanted it made clear that the actual numebrs were much, much higher.
 
The only person deflecting anything here is you. Over 80% of victims were male, assaulted by males.
You continue to use the inflated numbers you theorized in your first post despite not giving us any evidence for inflating the numbers this way.
For those of you still continuing this ridiculous idea that this is a gay problem, see link.


I’d like to note that this problem is so bad, 13 states now make it illegal for anyone to have a ‘consensual’ affair if religious counseling is involved. Some quotes you can respond to:

“a Pennsylvania grand jury noted finding “numerous other cases” of Catholic priests’ misconduct, but with adults. That was outside the scope of its investigation, but it’s a problem some experts say may be more pervasive than the abuse of children.”

“academic research shows that clergy sexual exploitation and abuse of women is pervasive, across religious denominations.”

“it appears clergy sexual abuse of women “is much more pervasive” than the abuse of children”

"predators use religious authority to manipulate minors or adults in ways that are “almost identical, but once someone reaches the age of 18, then society calls it an ‘affair.’ ”
 
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