Conservative faction attempt to deflect sex abuse scandal

[LateCatholic]

Because there were heterosexual predators too.

Then why aren’t you saying we have a heterosexual problem in the priesthood?

the mere existence of female victims does not negate the fact that the overwhelming majority of the victims were male.

Please give me the number of female victims where you will now declare we have a “heterosexual” problem in the priesthood instead of a “homosexual” problem. If your criteria is “more male victims=homosexual problem” versus “more female victims=heterosexual problem”, please read the following:

The Church’s Hidden Shame: Priests Abused Grown Women, Too

The author of the leading study on the topic warned that clergy sexual abuse of women “is much more pervasive” than that of children. And the Church still hasn’t reckoned with it.

www.thedailybeast.com

 

[LateCatholic]

Again, the mere existence of female victims does not negate the fact that the overwhelming majority of the victims were male.

And again, I challenge anyone that disagrees me to go to the female victims that were raped by male priests and to their face tell them this is homosexual problem.

 

[MikeInVA]

So why get rid of gay priests?

Maybe because a minority of the priest population is responsible for the majority of the assaults. Unless you have a better way to identify and remove predators, I think it’s a good start.

 

[LateCatholic]

So why get rid of gay priests?

This is how racism and bigotry is justified.
I’d say 95% of the predators are white. Let’s get rid of all Caucasian priests.
Heck, 100% of the predators are men. Let’s get rid of male priests and have all female priests.

My point stands independently of this, but it is interesting to note that studies show that 40% of all child molesters identify as NEITHER gay nor straight. This is why some claim pedophelia is a distinct, third sexual orientation. In fact, in the study I am referring to, NONE of the molesters claimed to be homosexual:
40% “focused on children”, 13% bisexual, 47% heterosexual.

 

[MikeInVA]

I’d say 95% of the predators are white. Let’s get rid of all Caucasian priests.

Being white isn’t a sin. Being an active homosexual is a sin.

 

[niceatheist]

There seems to be an almost willful desire to ignore one common thread; all these men have taken vows of celibacy. Perhaps asking people to ignore a fundamental human need is the problem.

 

[LateCatholic]

There seems to be an almost willful desire to ignore one common thread; all these men have taken vows of celibacy. Perhaps asking people to ignore a fundamental human need is the problem.

That doesn’t explain why they attack children. You can say celibacy is the problem regarding adult consensual sex in the priesthood, but not child molesters.

 

[MikeInVA]

Perhaps asking people to ignore a fundamental human need is the problem.

Sex is not a fundamental need; it may be a fundamental desire, but it is not needed for survival.

Why the scandal is huge, the perpetrators were a minority of the priestly population. Celibacy isn’t the problem.

 

[LateCatholic]

Why the scandal is huge, the perpetrators were a minority of the priestly population. Celibacy isn’t the problem.

8% of the priesthood is either under indictment, been found guilty, or credibly accused of sex abuse.
That’s 80 out of 1000 priests.
To put that in perspective, the number of registered sex offenders (and that includes non-pedophiles) in the US population is less than 4 per 1000.

And that is not including priests that attack adult women and men, which some studies claim is even higher than 8%.

Do NOT minimize this problem by implying it is a small number of priests. It’s not.

 

[niceatheist]

No sex, no life. Reproduction is a fundamental requirement of life.

 

[MikeInVA]

Reproduction is required for continuance of the species, not the individual.

 

[MikeInVA]

Ok, you need to read in context. I was addressing a statement that celibacy is an issue. I said that the majority of priests are able to live a chaste celibate life. Your numbers support my statement, as 92% of priests are not under investigation of have been found guilty of violating their vow/promise of celibacy.

I did not minimize the problem. It is a major problem that affects the entire Church, but its root cause is not celibacy.

 

[Annie]

8% of the priesthood is either under indictment, been found guilty, or credibly accused of sex abuse.
That’s 80 out of 1000 priests.
To put that in perspective, the number of registered sex offenders (and that includes non-pedophiles) in the US population is less than 4 per 1000.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

The PA grand jury examined reports back to 1947, allegations of any type of sexual misconduct. The national sex offender registry has only existed since 1992, around 1/3 of the time involved.

They found 300 individuals involved, not all of whom were priests, so your percentage is off since it includes all those against whom allegations were recorded, but not all the totals of the groups from which the people were drawn.

The registry includes only those who been convicted of crimes. you are comparing the registry total against the records of the archdiocese, which potentially include false allegations as well as allegations of actions which might not have been considered crime during the entire periods of time involved.

Further, the sex offender registry does not include people whose crimes were not prosecutable due to lack of evidence or other factors.

While all sex crimes are horrible, and those against vulnerable people particularly heinous, making completely invalid comparisons harms the case you are trying to make.

 

[LateCatholic]

You are comparing apples to oranges.

True - but in many ways the statistics benefit your side, not mine. And if you want to try to say the problem is not as bad as it looks, you are going to lose.

The PA grand jury examined reports back to 1947, allegations of any type of sexual misconduct. The national sex offender registry has only existed since 1992, around 1/3 of the time involved.

We are dealing with percentages, not raw numbers, so the above point does not apply. The current estimate for number of priests is 4-8% of the population. The diocese of Milwaukee in their bankruptcy filing LISTED 1 out of 12 priests. The Spotlight investigators found 1 in 25. The number of 8% is not far off considering that this only applies to those priests that have been caught. How many do you think got away with it?
Consider that 19 out of every 20 cases of child sex abuse goes unreported.

They found 300 individuals involved, not all of whom were priests, so your percentage is off

This would be a decent point (deacons are included) but my percentages do not come from the PA report.

The registry includes only those who been convicted of crimes.

This is a valid to a degree, but there are also points against you that outweigh your point.
First, the percentages includes the possibility of ‘false’ accusations. It would be higher if you included all accusations. The PA report only includes accusations they found credible, AND they also claim the actual number is much higher. At least triple, if not higher. They simply ran out of time to keep investigating.
Second, the public registry includes those convicted of ANY sex crime. This far, far weighs in your favor, as adult to adult sex abuse is the majority of sex crimes. Your side benefits here, not mine. By a lot.

Further, the sex offender registry does not include people whose crimes were not prosecutable due to lack of evidence or other factors.

This applies to priests as well. It is a wash.

making completely invalid comparisons harms the case you are trying to make.

This comparison far benefits your side, and it still shows the Church is a disaster. PLUS - these statistics only apply to the perps. We haven’t even discussed the enablers.
I just read an article today that says greater than 50% of all priests KNOW of an instance of sex abuse of a child and have not reported it. Did you know prior to recent changes the OFFICIAL position of the Church was to NOT report these events to the authorities? This is why RICO laws are in play.
We’re not even discussing the Bishops that hid these horrible atrocities. What about them???

Trust me - as bad as these statistics are - the reality is far, far worse.

 

[AlNg]

Celibacy isn’t the problem

Even if celibacy were not the problem, it could still be one factor that contributes to the problem.

 

[Shakuhachi]

Does the celibacy requirement attract a higher percentage of gay men? I think it does because a gay Catholic man is more likely not to be married. Priesthood offers a lifestyle that validates a life of celibacy.

So I think celibacy is a contributing factor.

 

[niceatheist]

My argument is that celibacy denies a basic human impulse and that there are psychological ramifications to a set of rules that deny a certain group of people the ability to act upon that which is a perfectly natural and normal impulse. I’m sure many, indeed most priests are capable of dealing with the requirement, though historically, at least, priests have not always stuck to their vows in this matter.

 

[MikeInVA]

We are all called to chastity, which some would say denies our impulses. We as Christians are called to rise above our impulses. The failures of a few to live up to their vows does not mean that the vows are wrong/unfair.

 

[LateCatholic]

We are all called to chastity, which some would say denies our impulses. We as Christians are called to rise above our impulses. The failures of a few to live up to their vows does not mean that the vows are wrong/unfair.

The whole chastity thing obscures the true problem. This is fundamentally about power, not sex. these perverts would find somewhere else if the Church tried to stop it.

The problem is the Church thinks it is above the law. And these predators see a pool of victims, and a foundation of belief that denies facts and evidence. I am being abused? Well, that must be what God wants. Only in religion is can the combination of so many evil factors coalesce to create such a widespread and despicable scandal.

 

[MikeInVA]

Once again, you need to look at the comment I was addressing. The poster stated that celibacy is the root of the problem. I replied that it is not. Again, your statement reinforces my point. Thank you.