Consubstantiation/Lutherans

[andrewstx]

Do you never reserve the Precious Blood? I have heard that you reserve the two together (I heard that once during a tour of an Orthodox Church, and at least once online). I believe we Melkites do the same.

When the Lambs are being prepared for reservation they have a small part of the Precious Blood placed on them. Then they are dried and then placed in the tabernacle. So they are reserved together but not separately. Hope that is a better answer. You will not find a bottle of the blood in an Orthodox tabernacle.

I have seen Episcopalians reserve them seperatley a ciborium for the Body and a bottle for the Blood, if they run out of either they get more from the tabernacle.

 

[andrewstx]

:bigyikes: I would hope not! As others have said, if you find a Lutheran teaching this, please correct them and turn them toward their own Confessions!

Well, let’s take a looksee.

This is not quite accurate. Lutherans typically do not reserve the Sacrament (some -perhaps many- do).

Lutherans who do not practice reservation of the Sacrament do not refrain from doing so because of any particular doctrine against it, but because they take very seriously Christ’s command to “Take, eat. Take, drink.” Christ doesn’t say anything about “Take, eat some now, and save some for later,” so in typical Lutheran fashion, they don’t put a comma where they understand God to have put a period. Instead, they simply avoid having any leftover altogether. Churches I’ve worshiped at have a simple practice - the elders count how many members are present so no more bread or wine than necessary is consecrated.

If a member is in the hospital or otherwise unable to make it to Divine Service, the pastor typically visits and consecrates the elements on-site, both so as not to subject His Body and Blood to being rather unceremoniously carted around all day as they visit shut-ins (and potentially spilled or dropped! ), and so that the consecration takes place in the presence of the communicant. This is thought to be more in line with Christ’s command, not to mention more pastoral (who doesn’t like a one-on-one visit from their pastor? ).

In short, the traditional Lutheran practice of not reserving the Sacrament is done totally out of reverence for His Body and Blood.

If I ever met such a person who claimed to be Lutheran, we would have words.

At churches where I’ve worshiped, any remaining Blood in the chalice is either consumed by the pastor or properly disposed, and anything remaining of His Body is either stored separately from the unconsecrated hosts or properly disposed. I know when my father’s congregation (he’s an LCMS pastor) was building a new church a few years ago, members made a particular point to add a piscina, which had been lacking from the original church (a terrible oversight of that hideous 1980’s bunker-church construction! ).

I typically steer clear of Wikis, but this actually explains Lutheran thought fairly well (be sure to read the footnotes, as well): lutheranwiki.org/How_Long_are_Christ%E2%80%99s_Body_and_Blood_Present_in_the_Consecrated_Bread_and_the_Wine_of_Communion%3F

Will you please say what “properly disposed” means? Thank you.

 

[benjohnson]

Will you please say what “properly disposed” means? Thank you.

In my church - most of the time it is reverently consumed. If a spill happens, the Blood is diluted and washed in the Piscina. Really large crumbs are consumed. Small crumbs are diluted and washed into the Piscina.

I will say that we’re not quite as reverent (we would say scrupulous) as some Catholics - for example, we have an older visiting Pastor that has a palsy and he makes a shaky mess of things. We cheerfully do our loving duty to Him, and thank God for this Pastor despite his affliction. Our church uses loves baked by the ‘little-old-ladies’, so there’s a potential for crumbs.

My little children (8 years and 5 years old) sometime put on white gloves and help remove the items from the altar. I cringe thinking about them spilling the chalice, but I know if they drop it we’ll reverently clean, dispose, and pray.

As one Pastor reminded me when I began to get a bit too worried about such things - “We can’t do anything more to Jesus. We already murdered Him once.”

 

[steido01]

Will you please say what “properly disposed” means? Thank you.

As Ben mentioned earlier, this is typically done via the traditional usage of a piscina and sacrarium. From The Altar Guild Manual: Lutheran Service Book Edition (wording unchanged, emphasis mine):

If any of the Lord’s body and blood remains, they can be disposed of in a number of ways. The best way is to consume the remaining elements, since the Lord said, “Take and eat … Take and drink,” and did not provide for anything that was left over. There is historic precedent for reserving the remaining elements against the next communion. The hosts can be stored in a pyx or ciborium (apart from unconsecrated hosts), the blood of the Lord in a suitable cruet or flagon (apart from unconsecrated wine). What remains in the chalice, however, should either be consumed or poured into the piscine or onto the ground, since there may be crumbs or other foreign matter in it. The reserved elements may then be kept in the sacristy or placed on the altar or credence and covered with a white veil. It is un-Lutheran and irreverent to place unused elements in the trash or to pour the remainder of what is in the chalice or flagon into the common drain.

And from the “Theology and Practice of the Lord’s Supper,” as prepared by the LCMS Commission on Theology and Church Relations:

B.2.c. Post Communion Reverence
The consecrated elements which remain after all have communed should be treated with reverence. This reverence has been expressed by Lutherans in various ways. Some have followed the ancient practice of burning the bread and pouring the wine upon the earth. Others have established a basin and drain-piscina-specifically for disposal for the wine. The elders or altar guild may also return the consecrated bread and wine to specific containers [a pyx or ciborium, separate from unconsecrated elements] for future sacramental use, or the elders and pastor can consume the remaining elements. All of these practices should be understood properly.

 

[andrewstx]

As Ben mentioned earlier, this is typically done via the traditional usage of a piscina and sacrarium. From The Altar Guild Manual: Lutheran Service Book Edition (wording unchanged, emphasis mine):

And from the “Theology and Practice of the Lord’s Supper,” as prepared by the LCMS Commission on Theology and Church Relations:

I think that is both reverent and sensible, and far from the horror stories I had heard.

 

[Peter_J]

When the Lambs are being prepared for reservation they have a small part of the Precious Blood placed on them. Then they are dried and then placed in the tabernacle.

Thanks for clarifying. Yes, that agrees with what I’ve heard in the past.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The reservation of the Sacrament in Lutheran parishes is influenced by a view that the Mass is meant to be the collective celebration of the faithful. Either all the holy Elements are consumed during or directly after Mass or disposed of by the altar guild [holy Blood poured down piscine or in a garden outside the sacristy]. Some churches have the unconsecrated hosts on a table in the back of the nave where communicants, coming into the church, can place a host onto a paten or host box. The idea is to limit the amount of bread consumed; the pastor and altar servers eat what is left over. The same with the consecrated wine; it is either consumed during or after Mass or poured into the earth.

Luther was uncomfortable with Benedictions of the Blessed Sacrament or Corpus Christi processions though both devotions can be found in some Lutheran parishes.

An ambry or tabernacle is also found in Lutheran churches with sanctuary lights signaling the Body of Christ. It seems this custom is more common in evangelical-catholic parishes. For example, in metro New York it is a customary among Lutherans. There is a parish in New Jersey where the tabernacle sits behind the altar in a stained glass window so that people can see the Reserved Sacrament both inside and outside the church building.

Probably most Lutheran churches in the U.S. reserve the holy Sacrament in the sacristy as it is done in Lutheran seminaries with an ambry light

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Here are a few examples of how the Blessed Sacrament is reserved in Lutheran churches:

 

[EvangelCatholic]

More photos of tabernacles in Lutheran parishes:

 

[hn160]

As Ben mentioned earlier, this is typically done via the traditional usage of a piscina and sacrarium. From The Altar Guild Manual: Lutheran Service Book Edition (wording unchanged, emphasis mine):

And from the “Theology and Practice of the Lord’s Supper,” as prepared by the LCMS Commission on Theology and Church Relations:

Our church follows those practices. When items are rinsed, the water is poured on the ground.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

This 1st photo is of a particularly beautiful tabernacle at St Augustine’s Monastery in Oxford Michigan. The second is St Matthew Church [LCMS] Bronx NY

 

[ufamtobie]

I must yield to Jon on the issue of consubstantiation. Attempting to explain how Christ is present in the sacrament is impossible. Luther taught us that Christ “is” there in that piece of bread and cup of wine.

American Lutherans mostly refer to the sacrament as either Holy Communion or Eucharist. European Lutherans call it Mass.

EvangelCatholic,

I asked JonNC, which he leaned toward Consubstantiation or Transubstantiation. JonNC said: “Sure, pinned down to respond in metaphysical terms I would clearly lean toward Transubstantiation.” You can find this Thread under “The Protestant Communion” post # 93, where JonNC, states he leans toward Transubstantiation.

EvangelCatholic, now I ask you the same question, which do you lean toward Consubstantiation or Transubstantiation?

EvangleCatholic, you say Martin Luther taught the Lutherans that “Christ “is” there in that piece of bread and cup of wine”? this is confusing, because when you worship your Lutheran Eucharist you are worshiping the bread along with Christ, or which part is Christ and which part is the bread, that you are looking at or worshiping and partaking of?

It seem that martin Luther and the Lutheran church believe that Jesus Christ, does not have the Power to turn the Bread into His Body 100%, the Wine into His Blood 100%

We Catholics know who we worship and partake of because the Catholic Eucharist, there is no confusion, the bread is no longer Bread but the Body Of Christ,100%!!! The wine no longer wine, but the Blood of Christ 100%!!!

Jesus Christ “is” not in the Bread, He is the Bread of Life 100% there Present. Amen

Jesus Christ, called Himself the Bread of Life aka the Most Holy Eucharist, when He said this, I’m sure without a doubt He was not mixing or saying I’m in the piece of bread.

EvangelCatholic, which did Jesus Say: I am the Bread of Life! Or, I am in that piece of the bread that gives life.?

Ufam Tobie

 

[steido01]

Ufam, do we accuse you of being a ‘Mary-worshiper?’ No. So please stop accusing us of “worshiping bread.” We worship Christ Alone. It’s one of our ‘Solas.’

 

[benjohnson]

there is no confusion, the bread is no longer Bread but the Body Of Christ,100%!!! The wine no longer wine, but the Blood of Christ 100%!!!

That’s very Lutheran! We take Jesus at his Word. “This is my body.”

It seems that the verbose definitions of various origin that can introduce slivers of doubt. Of those definitions, Transubstantiation (my opinion) is fine for teaching, but it doesn’t replace (nor measure up to) the reality of what Jesus told us.

 

[ufamtobie]

Ufam, do we accuse you of being a ‘Mary-worshiper?’ No. So please stop accusing us of “worshiping bread.” We worship Christ Alone. It’s one of our ‘Solas.’

Steido,

You can’t accuse me of being a "Mary-worshiper no more than you can accuse St. Gabriel, for saying “Hail Mary, Full of Grace,” St. Joseph Her Spouse for taking care of the Holy Family, or Elizabeth for saying “who am I that the Mother of the Lord should come to me” Nor St. John the baptist, for leaping for Joy in Elizabeths womb when he heard Mary’s voice, as well as St. John for taking Virgin Mary into his home, for she had no where to go, nor the Holy Spirit for the inspiration of them to say what they said, do what they did, re: Virgin Mary.

Our Lord said Woman behold thy son, John behold thy Mother, That’s is what we Catholics do, we behold Mary as our Mother, worship Her, no we don’t.

I am just pointing out the facts of what EvangleCatholic said re: Martin Luther’s teaching “Luther taught** us** that Christ “is” there in that piece of bread and cup of wine.”

Luther teaching here is wrong! Jesus Christ is not in the bread, He is the 100% the Bread, the Bread of life, when consecrated by a Priest.

Evangel Catholic has a beautiful picture of a Lutheran Priest raising up the Lutheran Eucharist, but then again, if you believe in what Martin Luther taught, then the Lutheran priest is also lifting up, the earthly bread that you lutherans say Jesus Christ is in

The definition of “Coexist” = exist at the same time or in the same place.

Therefore the Body of Christ can not, I repeat cannot “Coexist” at the same time with earthly bread, when consecrated, Well, then again, it is in the Lutheran church per the teaching of Martin Luther. As for the Catholic Church the earthly bread is no more, but now the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, when consecrated. Amen

Stiedo, Jesus Christ said: I am the Bread of Life. Jesus Christ did not say: I am in that piece of the bread that gives life.?

I believe what you say that you worship the Body of Christ in that piece of earthy bread. During your Lutheran adoration which piece is Jesus and which piece is the earthly bread how do you differentiate the two breads

I ask you the same question that I asked both JonNC, & EvangelCatholic and that is: which do you lean towards to Consubstantiation or Transubstantiation?

JonNC, already answered and said Transubstantiation.

Ufam Tobie

 

[ufamtobie]

That’s very Lutheran! We take Jesus at his Word. “This is my body.”

It seems that the verbose definitions of various origin that can introduce slivers of doubt. Of those definitions, Transubstantiation (my opinion) is fine for teaching, but it doesn’t replace (nor measure up to) the reality of what Jesus told us.

Benjohnson,

The Catholic Church! We take Jesus Christ at His Word Literally “This is my Body”

Benjohnson, Do you believe that Jesus is the Bread, or Jesus “is” in the earthly bread?

Ufam Tobie

 

[pablope]

That’s very Lutheran! We take Jesus at his Word. “This is my body.”

It seems that the verbose definitions of various origin that can introduce slivers of doubt. Of those definitions, Transubstantiation (my opinion) is fine for teaching, but it doesn’t replace (nor measure up to) the reality of what Jesus told us.

So…Ben…when Luther says the following analogy:

Consubstantiation” is a term commonly applied to the Lutheran concept of the communion supper, though some modern Lutheran theologians reject the use of this term because of its ambiguity. The expression, however, is generally associated with Luther. The idea is that in the communion, the body and blood of Christ, and the bread and wine, coexist in union with each other. “Luther illustrated it by the analogy of the iron put into the fire whereby both fire and iron are united in the red-hot iron and yet each continues unchanged” (The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, F.L. Cross, Ed., London: Oxford, 1958, p. 337).

What is Luther trying to do? Isn’t he trying to replace the reality of what Jesus taught? Isn’t what Luther trying to do is explain the mystery?

 

[pablope]

Ufam, do we accuse you of being a ‘Mary-worshiper?’ No. So please stop accusing us of “worshiping bread.” We worship Christ Alone. It’s one of our ‘Solas.’

Is this the part you are talking about on Unfam’s post:

*EvangleCatholic, you say Martin Luther taught the Lutherans that “Christ “is” there in that piece of bread and cup of wine”? this is confusing, because when you worship your Lutheran Eucharist you are worshiping the bread along with Christ, or which part is Christ and which part is the bread, that you are looking at or worshiping and partaking of?
*

So where does he accuse Lutherans of worshipping bread? He asked in the form of a question…

 

[benjohnson]

So…Ben…when Luther says the following analogy:

Consubstantiation” is a term commonly applied to the Lutheran concept of the communion supper, though some modern Lutheran theologians reject the use of this term because of its ambiguity. The expression, however, is generally associated with Luther. The idea is that in the communion, the body and blood of Christ, and the bread and wine, coexist in union with each other. “Luther illustrated it by the analogy of the iron put into the fire whereby both fire and iron are united in the red-hot iron and yet each continues unchanged” (The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, F.L. Cross, Ed., London: Oxford, 1958, p. 337).

What is Luther trying to do? Isn’t he trying to replace the reality of what Jesus taught? Isn’t what Luther trying to do is explain the mystery?

This is a perfect question!

Luther is illustrating the mystery for those that have questions as to how this mystery may be and yet the bread and wine look the same.

This illustration is just Luther trying to be helpful - we don’t bind ourselves to it as doctrine or dogma. They mystery is simply that “this is my body”.

 

[benjohnson]

Benjohnson,

The Catholic Church! We take Jesus Christ at His Word Literally “This is my Body”

Benjohnson, Do you believe that Jesus is the Bread, or Jesus “is” in the earthly bread?

Ufam Tobie

Awesome! I’m glad we have this in common, for frankly it’s the most important thing.

What we receive in the sacrament is Christ’s body and blood.