Contact With Baha'is and the Baha'i Faith

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Tritcher,

I thought about my response above and to be more accurate it was after what is called Young Turk rebellion in 1908 that Abdul-Baha was able to leave prison:

The Young Turks (Turkish: Jön Türkler (plural) or Turkish: Genç Türkler (plural), from French: Les Jeunes Turcs) were a Turkish nationalist reform party in the early twentieth century, favoring reformation of the absolute monarchy of the Ottoman Empire. Officially known as the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP),[1] their leaders led a rebellion against Sultan Abdul Hamid II.[2] They ruled the former Ottoman empire from 1908 until the end of World War I in November 1918.[3]
 
Very interesting; Abdul-baha has certainly had a remarkable journey. How is it he can claim greater authority than Jesus?
 
Steve…

Are you questioning my sincerety?

You understand that I’m not allowed to proselytize on this forum and you seem to want me to argue with you… All I can do is provide some information here …my purpose is not to try to convert you…

I hope you can understand where I’m coming from on this…🙂

God bless you Steve!
I do not question your sincerety in the least. What I question is the foundation of a religion that professses to follow the teachings of a Person yet ignores the very claims that Person makes as to his own identity and purpose. Making a defense of one’s beliefs does not constutute proselytizing. I have never thought that you were out to convert anyone here. I probably have not communicated as clearly as I could or should.

The basis of my question is this. What do you make of the claims that Jesus made concerning himself (i.e. that he is God himself)? It seems to me that there are only a couple of possibilities; 1) that the accounts of his life and the claims he made were erroneously recorded; 2) He was an outright liar (in which case he was not even a prophet); or 3) The accounts are true and he is God himself, in which case one would have no choice but to follow him and him alone.

To pick and choose certain elements of his life and ignore the others does not seem fair, reasonable or credible and this seems to me to be exactly what the Bahai faith does. It is quite possible that I am in error. Insofar as the Bahai faith embraces Jesus Christ, what I am asking you to do is to show me where I am wrong in my reasoning as you understand your faith.

God bless you as well.
 
Steve wrote:

What do you make of the claims that Jesus made concerning himself (i.e. that he is God himself)? It seems to me that there are only a couple of possibilities; 1) that the accounts of his life and the claims he made were erroneously recorded; 2) He was an outright liar (in which case he was not even a prophet); or 3) The accounts are true and he is God himself, in which case one would have no choice but to follow him and him alone.

My comment:

There is another possibility… His words could be misinterpreted.

It would be best to cite actual verses rather than making general statements… which themselves could be tainted by dogmatic beliefs and creedal statements developed over a thousand years ago.

So it is a matter on interpretation… The traditional interpretation and other interpretations.

The words of Jesus were likely in the Aramaic and later translated into Greek… Why is that important? The two languages are very different.

Translating from one language to another is fraught with difficulties and we don’t have the originals of what Jesus actually is reported to have said.

So we Baha’is accept that Jesus received a Revelation from God and believe Him to have innate knowledge…not schooled by men… and born of a Virgin…but this is not in the form of a creedal statements as you have say in the Catholic Church…
 
Very interesting; Abdul-baha has certainly had a remarkable journey. How is it he can claim greater authority than Jesus?
Tritcher,

I’m glad you find it “interesting” … Abdul-Baha never claimed “a greater authority than Jesus”… His only claim was given by His Father Baha’u’llah.😉
 
Hi again Arth 🙂

I have a few questions, if you don’t mind. I am not really in the manner of debating with people from other religions, I merely wish to dialogue and enquire, sometimes I might reciperocate with some info from our end.

My questions are about the Baha’i attitude to Catholicism. Since we are on a Catholic forum, and since the Baha’i Faith is a religion that emerged long after Catholicism in the 19th century and has statements about us, I think that your answers on this will be of interest not just to me but also to others reading but not participating in this thread.

It is not often that one finds other religions which have an official view of the Catholic Church in the way we have official teachings on other religions ie in the Vatican II declaration Nostra Aetate (on Non-Christian Religions).

I know of a couple of statements from the Guardian of your religion, Shoghi Effendi regarding the Catholic Church. I was shown them once by a Baha’i I conversed with online.

“The Guardian agrees with you that the Bahá’ís should be very careful not to criticize or rather attack the [Catholic] Church. As we believe the Church of Rome to be the inheritor, so to speak, of Christ’s teachings, the direct line, however perverted by men’s doctrines, it certainly does not befit us to show antagonism towards it. We know it is out-dated. Tact is required!”

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, March 22, 1950)
  1. Why are Baha’is not allowed to attack or criticize the Catholic Church?
  2. What does it mean by saying that the Catholic Church is the “direct line”? What line? Is this a unique statement about Catholicism or do you also believe it about other forms of Christianity (which as you know are many)? Is this a recognition of the unique position which the Church of Rome holds and has always held in Christianity as the primus (first) among Churches, the Holy See? I know the Baha’i Faith emerged from Shi’ite Islam and believes in the Imamate. Presumabely then Baha’is see Shi’as as having a purer form of Islam than Sunnis. Is this similar to the Catholic direct line? Is this how you view us too?
  3. What does it mean to say that the Catholic Church is the “inheritor of Christ’s teachings”?
  4. How can both of the above be true if we have been “perverted by men’s doctrines”?
  5. Again why can Baha’is not show antagonism towards Catholicism. The Guardian seems to be stressing this
  6. Why is “tact” required in speaking with Catholics?
  7. Are these “official” statements ie binding on Baha’is or simply Shoghi Effend’s personal opinions about Catholicism?
“A Catholic background is an excellent introduction to the Faith, and one that Mrs. … should feel gratified for having had. Though doctrines of the church today are no longer needed – as the Father Himself has come, and thus fulfilled the mission of Christ the Son yet the foundation they lay of spiritual discipline, and their emphasis on spiritual values and adherence to moral laws, is very important and very close to our own beliefs.”

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to two believers, August 17, 1941; Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 491)
  1. Why is a “Catholic background” an excellent or ideal ‘introduction’ to the Baha’i Faith? Why does a Catholic background help prepare someone for life as a Baha’i?
  2. What doctrines of the Church are no longer “needed”?
  3. What teachings, spiritual disciplines, spiritual values and moral laws of Catholicism are “very close” to Baha’i beliefs in your estimation?
  4. Why are we to feel “gratified” for being brought up in the Catholic Church? (I am obviously very grateful but I mean from a Baha’i perspective)
Directives from the Guardian: 107 JESUS (Virgin Birth of)

“With regard to your question concerning the Virgin Birth of Jesus; on this point, as on several others, the Baha’i teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the Catholic Church.”
  1. What are the “several other” areas?
*Messages to Canada - Shoghi Effendi: *

“The beloved Guardian has directed me to write you, that he feels it is time for the Canadian Baha’is, in their teaching work, to concentrate, to the extent possible, on bringing Catholics into the Faith. There are a vast number of French Canadians who are of Catholic persuasion. They would make fine Baha’is, and if representative members could be brought into the Faith, it will add prestige to the Faith, and help solidify its institutions. Thus, to the extent possible, the friends should do what they can to attract Catholics and then confirm them in the Faith.”
  1. Why were Canadians Baha’is encouraged to “bring Catholics into the faith”?
  2. Is this not a form of evangelism ie missionaries?
  3. Why would Catholics make particularly good Baha’is?
  4. How would we “add prestige” to your religion?
  5. How would we “help solidify its instititions”?
  6. What are these institutions?
  7. Why is it so important to “attract” Catholics?
  8. Why is it that most of the Baha’is I have met - in fact lets say all (admittedly a small number though) - have been of Protestant extraction and seem to have carried the emotional baggage, including negative views of the Catholic Church, with them into your faith? I have met one Baha’i, the one who provided me with the above, who was kindly disposed towards my religion. Why is this so? Does this not go directly against the above teachings on being nice to Catholics, not “criticizing” or defaming their religion?
At the time I had thought Baha’is had a VERY negative view of the Catholic Church until I read those statements.

Thank you 🙂

Love in Jesus 👍
 
Abdul-baha claims greater authority than Jesus because Abdul has chosen to accept some of Jesus’s teachings and to ignore others. For example, Jesus says: “The Father (the Jewish theistic God) and I are one.” see John 10:22-30. Abdul does not accept that Jesus is God, so he is speaking over the authority of Jesus. So what gives Abdul the ability to do so?
 
Vouthon wrote:

“I have a few questions, if you don’t mind.”

My comment:

I’d be willing to respond to a few questions but let’s see … you’ve asked over twenty… I’d suggest you boil it down to a few and I wouldn’t mind responding to them to the best of my ability.

Select the few that you feel are most pertinent…

I’ll respond to one that you posted here:

“With regard to your question concerning the Virgin Birth of Jesus; on this point, as on several others, the Baha’i teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the Catholic Church.” What are the “several other” areas?

My personal understanding as a Baha’i is that Baha’is accept the Virgin Birth of Jesus… The other area where we probably have agreement with Catholics is that life begins at conception… I think there are probably other areas where we agree on humanitarian issues.

God bless you “Vouthon”!
 
Abdul-baha claims greater authority than Jesus because Abdul has chosen to accept some of Jesus’s teachings and to ignore others. For example, Jesus says: “The Father (the Jewish theistic God) and I are one.” see John 10:22-30. Abdul does not accept that Jesus is God, so he is speaking over the authority of Jesus. So what gives Abdul the ability to do so?
Thanks for your post Tritcher!

We’ll have to disagree with you on that Tritcher…Abdul-Baha never claimed “greater authority than Jesus”… If you’ve run across some statement like that…produce it.

If you look at the verses you cite John 10:22-30 Jesus is responding to questions if He is the Messiah…

*The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.” *

Baha’is accept that Jesus was the expected Messiah.

" I and the Father are one.”

Being one with the Father does not in our view mean Jesus was God… If I am one with my father it could also mean that we have one purpose…one intention and one will. The problem is that we don’t know for sure what Jesus said… We have an idea but given the question related to His being the Messiah we have no doubts.

Here is what Baha’u’llah revealed on the subject:

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world.

Thus, He hath revealed: “Those shafts were God’s, not Thine.” And also He saith: “In truth, they who plighted fealty unto Thee, really plighted that fealty unto God.”

And were any of them to voice the utterance, “I am the Messenger of God,” He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: “Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God.” Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence.

And were they all to proclaim, “I am the Seal of the Prophets,” they, verily, utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and the “Hidden” – all of which pertain to Him Who is the Innermost Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say, “We are the Servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been 55 made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 53

Where it says above:

“…through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world.”

Would mean in my humble opinion that the Manifesattion perfectly manifests the Revelation, Names and attributes of God…in that way He is God.
  • God bless you Tritcher!
.
 
Hello Arthra

Sorry lol I didn’t intend to start the Spanish Inquisition 😛

I would like if possible if you could address my questions attached to the first quote by Shoghi Effendi minus the one about tact and the last one. I suppose I could discuss some of the other questions on another occassion.

God Bless you also
 
Hello Arthra

Sorry lol I didn’t intend to start the Spanish Inquisition 😛

I would like if possible if you could address my questions attached to the first quote by Shoghi Effendi minus the one about tact and the last one. I suppose I could discuss some of the other questions on another occassion.

I also see that you are engaged in debate/discussion with tritcher and another poster si I dont want ti bombard you on three fronts

God Bless you also
 
Hi, Arthra–

Quick question: what is the significance of the “high comma” used in the name Baha’i?

And in this name: Baha’u’llah?
 
First I tried to locate your citation in my sources and did find the following:
  1. Bahá’ís Should Not Attack the Church
“The Guardian agrees with you the Bahá’ís should be very careful not to criticize or rather attack the church. As we believe the church of Rome to be the inheritor, so to speak, of Christ’s Teachings, the direct line, however perverted by men’s doctrines, it certainly does not befit us to show antagonism towards it. We know it is out-dated. Tact is required!”

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, March 22, 1950)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 425)
  1. Why are Baha’is not allowed to attack or criticize the Catholic Church?
Let me say that Baha’is generally do not attack other religions… We don’t go out of our way to say publish diatribes against say Muslims, Roman Catholics, Mormons or whoever…What we use our resources on is publishing the Writings of the cenrtral Figures of the Faith such as Baha’u’llah, the Bab, Abdul-Baha and say Shoghi Effendi. There are still many Tablets and Letters in Farsi and Arabic that have yet to be translated into English and other languages.
  1. What does it mean by saying that the Catholic Church is the “direct line”? What line? Is this a unique statement about Catholicism or do you also believe it about other forms of Christianity (which as you know are many)? Is this a recognition of the unique position which the Church of Rome holds and has always held in Christianity as the primus (first) among Churches, the Holy See? I know the Baha’i Faith emerged from Shi’ite Islam and believes in the Imamate. Presumabely then Baha’is see Shi’as as having a purer form of Islam than Sunnis. Is this similar to the Catholic direct line? Is this how you view us too?
I think by direct line we are thinking of the establishment of the Church through Peter and so on… Abdul-Baha says:

“Christ wished by suggestion, or an allusion, to confirm the words of Peter; so on account of the suitability of his name, Peter, He said: “and upon this rock I will build My church,” meaning, thy belief that Christ is the Son of the living God will be the foundation of the Religion of God, and upon this belief the foundation of the church of God – which is the Law of God – shall be established.”

(Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 135)

This is similar in our view to the designation of Ali as successor to Prophet Muhammad. The designated successor to a Manifestation is very important to us as it is usually the successor that keeps the faith united and has authority for interpretation and so on as it passes through time… Each Manifestation has a dispensation and a period of influence. Our recognition of Peter and the establishment of the church is not however to be understood as an acceptance of the various struggles and doctrines that then developed over time in history.
  1. What does it mean to say that the Catholic Church is the “inheritor of Christ’s teachings”?
My view as an individual Baha’i is that it means at some early point in the history of the Church it did inherit the teachings of Christ… I found some additional quotes that may illustrate this further:

“What the Guardian was referring to was the Theocratic systems, such as the Catholic Church and the Caliphate, which are not divinely given as systems, but man-made and yet, having partly derived from the teachings of Christ and Muhammad are, in a sense, theocracies. The Bahá’í theocracy, on the contrary, is both divinely ordained as a system and, of course, based on the teachings of the Prophet Himself… Theophany is used in the sense of Dispensation…”

(Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 78)
  1. How can both of the above be true if we have been “perverted by men’s doctrines”?
So in our view there is a mixture that occurred over time: “…man-made and yet, having partly derived from the teachings of Christ …”
  1. Again why can Baha’is not show antagonism towards Catholicism. The Guardian seems to be stressing this
In general Baha’is are enjoined not to stir up antagonism…

“The friends should, under all circumstances, be careful not to arouse unnecessarily any feelings of religious antagonism.”

(Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 47)

Our goal is to reduce antagonisms:

“Religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated.”

(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 204)
  1. Why is “tact” required in speaking with Catholics?
This is an advisory to an individual Baha’i who apparently was planning to offer the Teachings to Catholics where he happened to be. Tact in teaching is always advised:

“As the Guardian himself has pointed out audacity in teaching is essential, but no less important is the necessity for the exercise of the utmost tact, wisdom and consideration…”,

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 600)
  1. Are these “official” statements ie binding on Baha’is or simply Shoghi Effend’s personal opinions about Catholicism?
They are binding on Baha’is as the Guardian was the center of the Faith from 1921 until 1957… and what he advised and interpreted is still binding on the friends. While we have no one who is living as a Guardian his teachings and advisements constitute what we would call the Institution of the Guardianship and is still viable today.
 
Christ’s divinity is also acknowledged by Baha’is…but we do not believe God was physically incarnated in Him. See my references above to the Manifestation of God! 😉
What is the Baha’i teaching regarding Christ’s death and resurrection? Do you believe that it atoned for our sins?

If you please, could you answer in your own words, rather than refer me to a site, or quoting your venerables? Thanks.
 
Thanks. I checked it out. But it doesn’t explain the high comma.

You do not know what it signifies? Could it be dropped and simply spelled Bahai? And Bahaullah?
:)Baha’u’llah is not so much a name really, as some would think. It literally means “Glory of God”. Baha means glory, the ‘u’ meaning of… and llah coming from Elah/ilah/Allah “God”. That’s how I understand why you need the commas even when referring to the historical person that people called Baha’u’llah.

:shrug:I still get confused why there are differences between Allah’u’Abha, and Allah’u’Akbar though. As it’s a requirement to repeat Allah’u’Abha 95 times a day for Baha’i’s.
 
:)Baha’u’llah is not so much a name really, as some would think. It literally means “Glory of God”. Baha means glory, the ‘u’ meaning of… and llah coming from Elah/ilah/Allah “God”. That’s how I understand why you need the commas even when referring to the historical person that people called Baha’u’llah.

:shrug:I still get confused why there are differences between Allah’u’Abha, and Allah’u’Akbar though. As it’s a requirement to repeat Allah’u’Abha 95 times a day for Baha’i’s.
For Baha’is Baha’u’llah is the title of Mirza Husayn Ali …

Baha’u’llah means Glory of God

Allah’u’Abha means God is glorius!

Allah’u’Akhbar means God is great!

Baha’is commonly use Allah’u’Abha in greeting other Baha’is.

Allah’u’Akhbar is not used by Baha’is.

The reason we use Allah’u’Abha is that it’s a short form of the Greatest Name or

“Ya Baha’u’l Abha”

Oh Glory of the Alll Glorius

It is a spiritual obligation of Baha’is to recite the Greatest Name Allah’u’Abha daily ninety five times and this is provided in the Kitab-i-Aqdas.

For more information about the Greatest Name see:

bahai-library.com/books/greatest.name/
 
What is the Baha’i teaching regarding Christ’s death and resurrection? Do you believe that it atoned for our sins?

If you please, could you answer in your own words, rather than refer me to a site, or quoting your venerables? Thanks.
Baha’is believe Jesus Christ was martyred and His body crucified…
In our belief the resurrection was spiritual not physical.
Baha’is believe there was an atonement and here I quote from the Writings:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole of Creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent spirit . . . He it is who purified the world. Blessed the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”
  • Baha’u’llah
*(Gleanings *86)

“This is the real atonement that His holiness Christ made-He sacrificed Himself for the life of the world.”
  • Abdul-Baha
(Abdu’l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu’l-Baha v3, p. 543)
 
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