Contemplating Islam

[KathleenGee]

Planten,

Thanks for responding. Christianity started in Israel. Jesus was a Jew. .

We believe in the communion of saints. Mary is now our heavenly mother and she intercedes for us.

One thing I think is not helping, is not providing testimonies of people who have participated in the faith shared with the communion of saints who have preceeded us into heaven…

No I don’t want politics, but I know there was much bloodshed in Jerusalem, and the Orthodox lost their home and blood was knee deep, they had fought so hard to keep Constantinople Christian. Islam was forced on them through slaughter. The same with the ancient Christian countries of Egypt, Syria and Palestine.

The other point is that the media and propaganda make out that the Christians were the blood thirsty ones. That they are the ones wanting to start fights and kill. Christianity was only atleast 600 years old. It took the Church 400 years to finally mobilize and go into the Holy City to protect the pilgrims and inhabitants there. Christians were crying out for hundreds of years for help. Christians were slow to fight because we receive so much from our devotion to Christ. It is said even now that the Christians in Palestine are the buff and provide peace to the Jews and Muslims.

Too much fighting and blood shed for me.

Yes, there have been times of peace and good Muslim leadership. But there have been times of dhimmitude in these sacred, ancient places.

You should read the story of Mary of Guadalupe of Mexico. It is incredible, but it also touches on the issues of inculturation, of people getting along and needed supernatural help to find peace with one another.

There is great virtue of religion not to retaliate and go in and take over…no one has ever wanted to go into destroy the Hajj inspite of all the persecution of Islam and initiation of conflicts on the world and other religions.

I saw a timeline that went all the way up to the present, and there were skirmishes all over the world, peace only lasting 2 to 3 years…the rich and powerful have buried the site somewhere in cyberspace so I don’t have the time to find it when i am here.

Please know I appreciate your good will.

 

[sedonaman]

KathleenGee,I cannot fully understand your problem. Please remember that islam did not attack the Christian Kingdom at all. It was the mighty Christian forces who attacked the tiny Muslim state. – Planten, History of the World, Part XIV

That’s right. King Kaisar of Rome heard all about the vast stores of gold that Mohammed was hoarding and just had to launch a “crusade” to get it for himself. He and his mighty army crossed a thousand miles of burning sand to capture all that Muslim booty.

Get real. The Roman Empire never got as far south as the Arabian Peninsula for a simple reason: there was nothing there of interest to them. Whatever wealth Mohammed had wasn’t enough to pay for a Roman army’s salary to Medina and back, even if the army had still existed, which it didn’t because Rome fell over 100 years before Mohammed was even born.
…

Next, please remember that jerusalem was the sacred place for the jews and the christians and the Muslims too. …

Any territory of interest to Christians and/or Jews is automatically “holy” ground to Islam. Mohammed was never in Jerusalem. The only reason the Muslims claim he was is to make trouble. Period.

We must know that jerusalem belonged to the Jews, not to the christians. can you explain to me how you came to occupy that city???

The Jews rebelled against the Romans in 69 AD, and the Romans retaliated by sacking Jerusalem. As a result, the temple was destroyed, and the Jews were scattered [The Diaspora]. “Occupy” is not a correct term. As more and more people became Christian, the Holy Land passed into Christian hands by default, a simple turn of events.

 

[blazerdave]

The Jews rebelled against the Romans in 69 AD, and the Romans retaliated by sacking Jerusalem. As a result, the temple was destroyed, and the Jews were scattered [The Diaspora]. “Occupy” is not a correct term. As more and more people became Christian, the Holy Land passed into Christian hands by default, a simple turn of events.

Exactly.

 

[KathleenGee]

Planten,

We are looking at history and the character of Muhammed and the means Islamic caliphs employed to promote and stake Islam in religious countries.

We also hear and acknowledge you in your intention of peace and good will.

But we do not see fighting and plundering and all—that aspect of Islam-- of being in true religion.

And I have been reading threads for some time now, and do not see any ability on the part of Muslims do even understand us, no matter how many times we repeat, we repeat, we repeat. I do not think Muslims have the approach to understand the transcendence of Christianity or the theology and concept of Christ as well.

We are outside your ball park. And I don’t see any deference to us as well…that our religion and how it relates to the world is very different than yours, so you can’t say you are the experts of Christianity because it is outside of you.

And Muhammed contradicts Jesus. They can’t be together.

 

[sedonaman]

…
We must know that jerusalem belonged to the Jews, not to the christians. can you explain to me how you came to occupy that city???

How did Muslims come to occupy Medina, Mecca, and all the lands between the Atlantic Ocean and the South Pacific? By knocking on doors and handing out pamphlets on street corners?

I have explained many times that I do not support any political struggle for supermacy.

Then you don’t support Islam.

You are trying to pull me into political matters. …

You entered political matters when you became a Muslim because that’s what Islam is, a political machine struggling to rule the world. Can’t get much more political than that.

 

[KathleenGee]

Sedonoman, your last post is indeed the bottom line…even transcending talk about religion.

And I don’t say much any more to Muslims because of the great lapse of understanding and true dialogue where people are listening together, growing in understanding, and growing together. There is a pause with some feedback, but then people go back to the same place.

I am no expert on Islam or the Koran. I am no expert on Christianity, but more as simple believer who has taken formal time to study my faith.

Whenever Muslims or others quite separate in thought use something of Catholicism to counter, it is always taken out of context and incorrect.

I see Muslims, though, of all groups making claims about our religion as if they are some sort of expert, and their ideas are not even accurate.

It is like people are looking at Catholicism and Christianity through some sort of filter and they are not understanding it correctly, no matter what we say.

I don’t go on Baptist sites. I don’t go on Mormon sites. I don’t go on Seventh Day Adventist or Jehovah Witness sites. I don’t go on Muslim sites. I see good people in all of them. But I have found their ideas in some or many areas quite separate and irresolvable.

So I spend more time praying for people and ask Mary to pray with me for all of you.

 

[planten]

Planten,

Thanks for responding. Christianity started in Israel. Jesus was a Jew. .

I agree.

We believe in the communion of saints. Mary is now our heavenly mother and she intercedes for us.

We Muslims also believe in the communion of saints. Mary may be a heavenly mother or your mother of God, whatever you prefer. We Muslims prefer Mary and honor her. That is clearly proved by our book (Quran).

We do not believe that any one who has passed away can intercede for us in this life. Intercession will be on the day of judgement. Otherwise, you are right.

One thing I think is not helping, is not providing testimonies of people who have participated in the faith shared with the communion of saints who have preceeded us into heaven…

I have no problem with any saint. I believe that God talked to them. They are heavenly persons…

No I don’t want politics, but I know there was much bloodshed in Jerusalem

KathleenGee, when was bloodshed in Jerusalem?? I feel that you have never seen the Quran and you are not aware as to how Jerusalem was taken without any bloodshed with guarantee of full protection given in writing to the christian heads signed by the caliph Umar and countersigned (on the insistence of the christian leaders) by six senior companions of the prophet Muhammad. That paper of treaty of Jerusalem may even now be avalaibale with some Museum in Europe.

There was no bloodshed in Jerusalem at all. i do not undewrstand your bloodshed.

, and the Orthodox lost their home and blood was knee deep, they had fought so hard to keep Constantinople Christian. Islam was forced on them through slaughter. The same with the ancient Christian countries of Egypt, Syria and Palestine.

That may be true. I did not discuss that at all. I have replied to only part of your post. Later I will see to your post #246. But before that, would you inform me about the bloodshed in Jerusalem please. From where did you learn that??

 

[KathleenGee]

In regards to Jerusalem, it has always had a history of bloodshed and takeovers.

The Persians had taken over the Holy Land after much destruction and bloodshed. Then the Byzantine Christians had control of the Holy Land, having ousted control from the Persians.

Approximate the Temple Mount, the Nea (new) Church of St. Mary Major of Justinian-- a Christian church was built, very large and most beautiful. The site of the Mount was actually a dump.

So perhaps we should also reflect on Islam’s justification its control of the city of Jerusalem. Muhammed visited Jerusalem in 630. It is debated that Muhammed had never been inside of Jerusalem or simply rode past it but had no interest in it.

In 621, Muhammed had a dream. The phrase goes, ‘Glory to He who took His servant by night from the Sacred Mosque to the furthest mosque’. The Sacred Mosque was already in Mecca. The farthest mosque at that time was considered a phrase, not a place, and if anything, the farthest mosque at that time from the Sacred Mosque was in Medina or a town called Ji’rana about 10 miles from Mecca.

In 638 Jerusalem was conquered by the Muslim Umyyads, under the leadership of Caliph Omar. We can assume conquest means destruction and bloodshed.

And at that time, ‘up there’ at the Mount was the Catholic Byzantine St. Mary’s Major.

So we don’t want to even claim that Muhammed rose to heaven on a horse from a Catholic Church!! But if you say he flew to Jerusalem, then that is what had happened.

Back to the times of the Arab conquest. The Caliph wanted to unite the Jews to Islam. He had the Mosque built between 691-2. And at this time it is now when Jerusalem is the new lift off for the Prophet from from Quran 17:1, this in 692. Again, Jerusalem was not mentioned in 621 when Muhammed had the dream.

St. Mary Major was then reconstructed into the mosque by Caliph abd El Malik’s son. And the first extant inscription of Quran 17:1 didn’t come about until the 11th century.

There was peace under Muslim rule, but at the very time of the conquest, but non-Muslims had to accept the dhimmi status and pay tax.

And to be fair, the Jews and Christians did not get along at all. The Muslims oversaw the sites. And then before the Crusades, the Islam we see returned, and under a new caliph persecutions, bloodshed, and destruction came about again, as well as pilgrims being killed on the way to the Holy Land that brought about the Crusades.

The problem with Islam, and I do not have the author, “is the Muslim tendency to ID places, names found in the Quran…‘wherever the Quran mentions a name of an event, stories were invented to give impression that somehow, somewhere, someone, knew what they were talking about’.”

Indeed, Muhammed ibn al-Hana fiyz (638-700), a close relative of Prophet Muhammed, is quoted as denigrating the notion that the prophet ever set foot on the Rock in Jerusalem; “these d…Syrians,” by which he means Umayyads’, pretend that God put His foot on the Rock in Jerusalem though only one person ever put his foot on the rock, namely Abraham.’ Daniel Pipes.

And now we are hearing that it was indeed the Muslims who first came to America…sigh.

 

[psychiatrist]

As a Persian Catholic, I know first-hand about the horrors that Islam can bring to people.

Some things that Persians in Iran go through at the hands of Islam:

–facing death for leaving Islam and converting to any religion
–facing death for protesting for basic human rights
–female political prisons who are virgins are raped before they are executed because of the Islamic belief that virgins automatically go to heaven
–public lashing for drinking alcohol or listening to music

Islam is a religion that is totalitarian, controlling, and evil. It is the polar oppostie of the Catholic faith. Don’t do it.

 

[planten]

In regards to Jerusalem, it has always had a history of bloodshed and takeovers.

The Persians had taken over the Holy Land after much destruction and bloodshed. Then the Byzantine Christians had control of the Holy Land, having ousted control from the Persians.

Approximate the Temple Mount, the Nea (new) Church of St. Mary Major of Justinian-- a Christian church was built, very large and most beautiful. The site of the Mount was actually a dump.

So perhaps we should also reflect on Islam’s justification its control of the city of Jerusalem. Muhammed visited Jerusalem in 630. It is debated that Muhammed had never been inside of Jerusalem or simply rode past it but had no interest in it.

In 621, Muhammed had a dream. The phrase goes, ‘Glory to He who took His servant by night from the Sacred Mosque to the furthest mosque’. The Sacred Mosque was already in Mecca. The farthest mosque at that time was considered a phrase, not a place, and if anything, the farthest mosque at that time from the Sacred Mosque was in Medina or a town called Ji’rana about 10 miles from Mecca.

In 638 Jerusalem was conquered by the Muslim Umyyads, under the leadership of Caliph Omar. We can assume conquest means destruction and bloodshed.

And at that time, ‘up there’ at the Mount was the Catholic Byzantine St. Mary’s Major.

I was not interested in the rest of your post. In the above part, your assumption that there must have been bloodshed during take over is completely ignorance. That is a completely false assumption. The Caliph Umar had to ride a camel to Jerusalem to take over the city peacefully because the Bishops at Jerusalem had said that they would give up the city if Caliph gave some guarantees.

There was no bloodshed at all. The document written down must be available some where even now. But you have to read something about that time to know the facts.

i see that you are siding with sedonnaman un-necessarily. So you will be without truth in the end like all others. You should blame on the Muslims what is wrong and what is bad. But please do not distort the good things.

Read some where the history, may be in Wikipedia, about the take over of Jerusalem by Caliph Umar. It should be on the net. We did not write that matter.

 

[sedonaman]

I was not interested in the rest of your post. In the above part, your assumption that there must have been bloodshed during take over is completely ignorance. That is a completely false assumption. The Caliph Umar had to ride a camel to Jerusalem to take over the city peacefully because the Bishops at Jerusalem had said that they would give up the city if Caliph gave some guarantees.

There was no bloodshed at all. The document written down must be available some where even now. But you have to read something about that time to know the facts.

…

Here are some facts:

The following is a summary of the devastating consequences of the Arab Muslim conquest of Palestine during the fourth decade of the 7th century, directed by the first two Caliphs, Abu Bakr, and Umar b. al-Khattab [notwithstanding Pervez Musharaff’s hagiography of the latter, in a New York City speech].

The entire Gaza region up to Cesarea was sacked and devastated in the campaign of 634 AD, which included the slaughter of four thousand Jewish, Christian, and Samaritan peasants. Villages in the Negev were also pillaged, and towns such as Jerusalem, Gaza, Jaffa, Cesarea, Nablus, and Beth Shean were isolated. In his sermon on the Day of the Epiphany 636 AD, Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem, bewailed the destruction of the churches and monasteries, the sacked towns and villages, and the fields laid waste by the invaders. Thousands of people perished in 639 AD, victims of the famine and plague wrought by this wanton destruction.

The Muslim historian Baladhuri (d. 892 AD), maintained that 30,000 Samaritans and 20,000 Jews lived in Caesarea alone just prior to the Arab Muslim conquest; afterward, all evidence of them disappears. Archaeological data confirms the lasting devastation wrought by these initial jihad conquests, particularly the widespread destruction of synagogues and churches from the Byzantine era, whose remnants are still being unearthed. The total number of towns was reduced from fifty-eight to seventeen in the red sand hills and swamps of the western coastal plain (i.e., the Sharon).

Massive soil erosion from the Judaean mountains western slopes also occurred due to agricultural uprooting during this period. Finally, the papyri of Nessana were completely discontinued after the year 700, reflecting how the Negev also experienced the destruction of its agriculture, and the desertion of its villages.

Once productive land is laid waste by Islam, Muslim rule must expand to new, productive land to support the conquerors. And so the cycle of devastation repeats.

 

[Dokimas]

What would you say to a person who was contemplating Islam?
I really need some strong advice and hard facts!

escapefromdarkness.org/about

answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n1/escape-from-darkness

 

[KathleenGee]

Planten,

I went online so many years back to study Islam. I know people who have alot of money can buy up to have their sites first. I had to spend time going back and finding what I read then.

I know that Islam has good Muslims who do not do these things. We know that and we appreciate you being here. How many Muslims continue here like you do…

…I wish, we wish you would tell us your name because…you know, because of others with the same. And you are a good sport to stay on here.

When I was reading about Jerusalem, and yes, many, many conquests have happen to Jerusalem; the Syrian Muslims who took over were part of many, there is some thing about Jerusalem that has such a draw.

No matter the past, everyone there is to stay, except the Christians.  They are now down to about 600,000 people and many don't know how they can remain there.  (I hope they come here so they can share their customs and their perseverence of faith surviving in the Holy Land for 2,000 years.

Jerusalem is a holy city. Catholics tell me they go there and experience such a profound sense of the sacred. We as Catholics are always exhorted, however, to see the Church – the aspect of true faith – as the New Jerusalem.

And I think you, and others like you, also seek to be part of the New Jerusalem. But for us it is is mystical and we will not find our true home until we are in heaven. So we don’t fight so much.

Palestine, Syria, and Egypt had the largest teeming populations of Christians. Northern Africa used to be Catholic. I also read the faith in North Africa weakened, heresies fractured the faith, they had losses due to bubonic plague, so by the time the Islamicists came in, they were easily defeated.

Now in 1947, the United Nations tried to pass Res. 181 which would have made Jerusalem an international city. The Muslims have been there very long so one cannot remove them. The Christian faith has been there, and one of the great foundations of Judaism, is the Covenant of the Land as well as the Covenant of the Law. John Paul II also sought to see Jerusalem an international city. But all the Arab entities rejected Res. 181. Again, this ongoing problem of not recognizing the worth and history of other people…I get deeply hurt when I hear others saying there was no Christianity until their sect came about in the last 100 years or so. It deeply hurts.

So the point that I was making as well was that people added to the Quran to justify Jerusalem belonging to them, of creating a scenario that Muhammed was there, when in fact he said he had a dream. It was a dream, not a fact, and he never said this dream took him to Jerusalem, nor did he ever claim it for Islam.

Remember me sharing with you the need for objective witness to verify? So this point was not added to the Quran until the 11th century.

I appreciate all the good the Muslims do in keeping peace. It also grieved and shocked me to see monks fist fighting there.

I also found out how much of a history the Armenians have tied to Jerusalem. So many of them died in Muslim Turkey. And then on YouTube I saw a film from 1922 with the Turks burning Smyrna down to the ground, an ancient city mentioned in the Epistles. …And there were American military ships that did nothing to save the people but watch.

So even though these fighters win and gain land through all sorts of means, I consider it weakness. Love and goodness is most enduring.

For us to come together and go forward, we must see the past how painful it is. There are many painful things about America that we have to see, feel the great loss, but ask God’s forgiveness, and make amends to be better. That is my intent.

My intent is to lance the infection of the wound of take overs, plundering, killing, enslaving, taxing…all using the Holy Name of God. I see it among Christians using the Bible. It is all sinful. There are those in the Waqf in Jerusalem who deliberately are doing all they can destroy all the artifacts of the ancient Temple to prove it never existed, but we in the world know the Temple was there.

So again, the intent is not to hurt you. But it is to bring the truth to light, so that the evil can be addressed for what it is and then renounced and driven from our hearts. If we cannot face the evil in our own religions, and you are seeing mine in the news, then nothing will be healed and purged. We must be purified.

 

[KathleenGee]

About religion and malice united…about us going to heaven,

… but just sitting up there while everybody goes through hell down here, I hope to pray for people when I am in the next life. I can’t turn my back on people who suffer.

Well, I am a sinner. Mother Miriam was not. She is the Queen of Heaven and Earth. Here is a prayer Sr Faustina wrote in honor of Mary. How our world needs God’s mercy and how we need to be merciful to each other, irregardless of our beliefs and opinions. God’s justice is coming and there are signs now in the sky and on the earth, the poor animals and fish are suffering, even the earth.

'O Mary, my Mother and my Lady, I offer you my soul, my body, my life and my death, and all that will come after it. I place everything in Your hands. O my Mother, cover my soul with Your virginal mantle and grant me the grace of purity of heart, soul and body. Defend me with your power against all enemies, and especially against those who hide their malice behind the mask of virtue…fortify my soul that pain may not break it. Mother of grace, teach me to live by God’s power…

O Mary, a terrible sword has pierced Your holy soul. Except for God, no one knows of your suffering. Your soul does not break; it is brave, because it is with Jesus. Sweet Mother, unite my soul to Jesus, because it is only then that I will be able to endure all trials and tribulations, and only in union with Jesus will my little sacrifices be pleasing to God. Sweetest Mother, continue to teach me about the interior life. May the sword of suffering never break me, O pure Virgin, pour courage into my soul and guard it.
St Sr Faustina

One year I came to realize a cross I carry would never change and could last a lifetime. I went to church on Oct 7 to pray the rosary after Mass. I had my eyes closed. Then all of a sudden, in the ‘eye of my faith’, with my eyes closed, I ‘saw’ Mary enter our little room in the back. She stood in front of each one. She nodded her head listening to each person and seeing each person as her beloved child. Then I felt her come to me. She stood in front of me. She leaned close to me and I could smell linen, I could smell her clothes and they smelt like the linens the nuns wore at school…she leaned forward to embrace me, then all of a sudden she became very small, and then I could see her at my heart, and then I could see her arms around my heart. All this happened with my eyes closed; I was afraid to open them. Christ the King Parish, in Seattle, WA may be in October, '81 or 2.

I have had many troubles. My pastor wondered how I continued. It was because Mary has her arms around my heart and keeps it from breaking.

 

[lost_wanderer_1]

You’ve got to be kidding???

A muslim video on “Top 10 reasons why Jesus Christ Isn’t God”

OY VEY!!!

All I see is two hypocrites who says Jesus is dear to Islam. Are they on drugs?

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Islam is a religion that is totalitarian, controlling, and evil. It is the polar oppostie of the Catholic faith. Don’t do it.

You are required to be respectful regarding all faiths in this forum,

Describing Islam as evil fails on that count.

Please read the forum rules.

 

[KathleenGee]

Going back, Planten, I did read of the Omar entering Jerusalem wearing a cloak made of camel hair, taking a humble position. But we do not hear or make sense from that source as to what made people so passive they willingly would hand over Jerusalem to a foreign religion.

Would the Muslims passively allow foreign beliefs to enter Hajj and then they allow the ‘infidels’ to now govern the Hajj??? In truth, Islam has no verifiable claim to Jerusalem and the Holy Land, but they are there so for long and have done their part in time to keep peace.

Jerusalem is truly an international city and the Jews, Christians, and Muslims are here to stay in the world. Jerusalem is so holy and sacred, it belongs really to all.

And so with the Mother Mary prayer, I wanted you to see her work that continues in heaven for us. There is such a thing that is found in all religions – people who use religion to hide their malice and evil intentions. We pray to Mary to protect us from them because they can destroy a person’s faith.

So if you believe in Miriyam, you should be able to see some thing of her in that prayer, as she is not passive. In heaven, the saints pray for us on earth who are still struggling and suffering.

And Mary has the power to protect our hearts so we do not break or lose faith. We don’t need to see ourselves as superior to other religions, and to be in this spirituality of Christianity with Mary, we don’t need to fight with others over religion.

It is not good to argue the same points over and over going nowhere.

 

[planten]

Going back, Planten, I did read of the Omar entering Jerusalem wearing a cloak made of camel hair, taking a humble position. But we do not hear or make sense from that source as to what made people so passive they willingly would hand over Jerusalem to a foreign religion.

Would the Muslims passively allow foreign beliefs to enter Hajj and then they allow the ‘infidels’ to now govern the Hajj??? In truth, Islam has no verifiable claim to Jerusalem and the Holy Land, but they are there so for long and have done their part in time to keep peace.

Jerusalem is truly an international city and the Jews, Christians, and Muslims are here to stay in the world. Jerusalem is so holy and sacred, it belongs really to all.

KathleenGee, Thanks for your response. There were wars in the area between the Romans and the Muslims. The Muslims were advancing. They reached Jerusalem and surrouded the city. For some time there was no progress, no fight. But the Catholics were surrounded and felt that they will have no help from any where.

Their elders knew that there was no way except to surrender. So the Bishops sent message to the commander of Muslim forces that they were willing to open the city if the Caliph came himslef. They would hand over the city to the Caliph only.

The Commander sent the same message to the Caliph Umar. The Caliph Umar in reply told the Commander that was exactly what was needed. He ordered the Commander not to advance or attack the city. It was the Muslims Qiblah (center of worship) too and there was not to be any blood shed there. The Caliph said that he was arriving himself.

So the Caliph rode a camel (one camel) with a servant, turn by turn, from Madinah to Jerusalem. He had ragged clothes ( or clothes with many patches ) on him. When they met the Bishops, the highly superbly dressed Bishops were surprised. They welcomed the Caliph and they demanded safety of many things. It was agreed that a document be written. So a paper was written at wishes of the Catholics, as follows:

1. No land will be taken away.
2. All the church items will be sacred and protected.
3. Life and honor will be protected…
4. Prayers, prayer books will be protected.
5. All churches will be safe and protected property.

It is a good list. Everything that the Bishops asked for was granted by the Caliph Umar. The Bishops could not believe it. They doubted the matter. But Caliph Umar signed the document. The Catholics made a final demand, saying that one man is assuring. What happens if Umar dies. Later day Muslims will break the treaty. So they suggested that six senior memebers of the Muslims (Companions of the prophet Muhammad) should also sign the document,

Caliph Umar said he could not force any one to sign. But there were many Companions of the prophet present at the meeting. Six of them came forward and signed on that document. After, that city of Jerusalem was opened and handed over to the Muslims very peacefully, without any blood shed.

There is a bit more to all that, but I hope it should be enough to show that there was no bloodshed at all.

WE do not mind that Jews and Christians should hold control over the city because it is sacred to all of us. But will the Jews and Christians agree to that?? I hope not. There should be no fight now for difference of religion. That chapter should be closed now for ever. There has been enough bloodshed in the name of Allah between different faiths and between faiths (sects) and also now the suicide bombing is taking toll.

We have been against any killing in the name of Allah for a very long time. But people do not listen to us. I challenge any one speaking out against religious wars 120 years ago. Nobody was doing it. Every one was eager to fight in the way of God/Allah. But that was all wrong,illegal, un-islamic, anti-catholic. Mostly, politics was involved in that. It should end completely. Let the people say and preach what they want to do peacefully without abusing or attacking others. Jesus was for peace. So was Muhammad and Moses.

The day the people will understand that love and peace, will be a good day. At present many are full of hatred against others. And Hatred breeds hatred., more hatred. Love will bring peace.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, I am also a little learned of the Romans fighting the Muslims. I acknowledge your post.

And I do appreciate your desire for peace and harmony. We all have much to learn from each other, and I pray for the day when true reciprocity will come about, because what we are experiencing of God as separates will be incomparable to what we will experience of God together.

And this is the era of peace we are looking forward to — and without compromise. It may mean, and I hope not, that religious sites will not be destroyed in the meantime. And we are now approaching the time when darkness will come and envelope the earth and it will look like evil will triumph over good.

I uphold my convictions as well that the Catholic Church does hold the fullest understanding of God and the link is Jesus Christ. And we have His mother now as our own.

I think Islam, if it cannot understand at this time our understanding of divinity, it nevertheless holds Mary practically the same as us. But as we are close to Christ, we are close to His mother.

Mary, from Catholicism, can be of great help to the Islam world. She can also help women to attain greater dignity and worth, and this does not mean abandoning their spouses and traditions. Mary can help Muslim men see women better, and help them to have greater peace in their hearts.

So for me the link with Islam is Mary, Miriam. I want to help women and girls here in America discover Mary and help them be restored in her. I think helping our women and girls who come to Mary can also do good, great good in restoring the reputation of Western women to the world.

Because I see the misuse of woman as well as our support of the Jews in Israel, as a symbol of inflammation by the Islamic world in the West’s spread of pornography and its degradation of men and women, and the breakdown of family.

Mary is the true soldier of peace. And her grace far exceeded all the apostles and even the angels. Mary is Queen of heaven and Earth.

So our idea of faith as Christians is not so much a worldly political one, but the inner one of the heart, Mary who strengthens us and helps nurture Christ’s peace in our hearts, Mary who brings to us the kingdom of Christ on earth.

 

[KathleenGee]

I think, though, that as were pointed out in previous posts, and our own knowledge that Egypt, Palestine, and Syria were teeming Christian populations until the Islamic conquest, and that it is still defined as an Arabic conquest of Jerusalem…there is still the imposition of one’s religion by force and destruction.

The Caliph’s offer was recognizably benevolent. And the Jews welcomed him because of the acrimonious relationships between them and the Christians, and that the place of the former Temple was now a dump, and used disparagingly. I can see the tension still existing today between the Byzantine and Jewish world.

But everyone of the non-Muslims, although able to worship, were now second-class citizens and had to pay taxes.

What people of faith wish to see happening in the Muslim world is to follow what the West and Western churches have done: to apologize for the wrongs they have done to others from the past, to acknowledge the damage was indeed done, and to ask forgiveness for it.

And as the Bible says, the ‘just carry the sins of the unjust’…so it takes alot of humility for those just ones to bring forward past wrongs, even though they would never do such things themselves, and say ‘sorry’.

That is what we need to hear from the Muslim world, and the spirit of reciprocity. That we are not inferior, bad people because we are not Muslim.

And I believe for everyone to turn to Mary to help us with this new union is essential, and perhaps the only way for reconciliation, reciprpocity, and harmony.