Contemplativeprayer.net

[JimR-OCDS]

There is no need to be so angry about it Jim either. I have not attacked you nor been rude to you and neither has anyone else on this thread, but you have let your desire to defend CP cause you to be rude.

Method, formula, method, formula, method, formula. What a rut to be in; a rut that says ‘I will create’ instead of ‘God will create’!

You post misinformed statements like this, to describe Centering Prayer and the people who do it, as not being rude or offensive?

I don’t like the method you use to pray, but that is up to you however we are not debating your prayer life specifically, we are debating CP, if that is central to your prayer life then of course you will personalise it but these comments are in no way intended to be personal to you, they are in respect of CP. You take from that what you please as you are master of yourself and your soul.

I have no problem if you don’t like the method of Centering Prayer. What I object to, is your judgement that those who do. Go back read your statements.

The Holy Father has written on this when he was a Cardinal and Augustine kindly provided the letter in one of his posts. You might like to read it.

I read what he said differently than you.

Peace
Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jim, when you get right down to it your beef isn’t with me . . . it’s with St. Teresa.

I don’t have a beef at all with St. Teresa.

As I’ve been saying, I can relate exactly to what she’s says, because of my experience in contemplation.
Centering Prayer was merely the tool that helped led me there. As I open my heart to Christ, and remove all attachments to things not of Christ, he fills the void. It is Jesus who transforms my life, not my method of prayer, or anything I can do of myself.

No longer I, but Christ in me.

In Christ
Jim

 

[blessedstar]

You post misinformed statements like this, to describe Centering Prayer and the people who do it, as not being rude or offensive?

I have no problem if you don’t like the method of Centering Prayer. What I object to, is your judgement that those who do. Go back read your statements.

I read what he said differently than you.

Peace
Jim

Without doubt, a Christian needs certain periods of retreat into solitude to be recollected and, in God’s presence, rediscover his path. Nevertheless, given his character as a creature, and as a creature who knows that only in grace is he secure, his method of getting closer to God is not based on any “technique” in the strict sense of the word. That would contradict the spirit of childhood called for by the Gospel. Genuine Christian mysticism has nothing to do with technique: it is always a gift of God, and the one who benefits from it knows himself to be unworthy.27

You read that plus the entire letter and say you see it differently. Would you mind explaining how you see it?

How is my statement about ruts and method misinformed and when commenting on a prayer method how is that personally rude to you? I made no rude comment on you personally, but you have on people including myself which I don’t care what you think of me and I am not worried about receiving insults or mocking my typing errors.

Jesus doesn’t fill voids, He is the fullness of everything. And if it is Jesus who transforms your life as you rightly say then why bother with any method?

This is becoming a circular debate.

 

[DBT]

I don’t have a beef at all with St. Teresa.

As I’ve been saying, I can relate exactly to what she’s says, because of my experience in contemplation.
Centering Prayer was merely the tool that helped led me there. As I open my heart to Christ, and remove all attachments to things not of Christ, he fills the void. It is Jesus who transforms my life, not my method of prayer, or anything I can do of myself.
**
No longer I, but Christ in me**.

In Christ
Jim

Jim, if what you say is true . . . it sure would be nice to see some sign of that in your posts.

Why can’t you talk in a charitable way to people holding differing points of view? To be honest, I’d REALLY like to have an open, meaningful discussion with you . . . as I’m sure many others would too.

But it’s impossible to get past all the emotionalism, defensiveness, axe-grinding and name calling to actually hear what you have to say – which is a real shame because I think you have a lot to offer. Show us your fruit . . . don’t just tell us you have it.

Think about it please.

Dave.

 

[blessedstar]

Jim, if what you say is true . . . it sure would be nice to see some sign of that in your posts.

Why can’t you talk in a charitable way to people holding differing points of view? To be honest, I’d REALLY like to have an open, meaningful discussion with you . . . as I’m sure many others would too.

But it’s impossible to get past all the emotionalism, defensiveness, axe-grinding and name calling to actually hear what you have to say – which is a real shame because I think you have a lot to offer. Show us your fruit.

Think about it please.

Dave.

I’ll second that.

I am more interested in understanding you Jim than you understanding me.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

QUOTE]Nevertheless, given his character as a creature, and as a creature who knows that only in grace is he secure, his method of getting closer to God is not based on any “technique” in the strict sense of the word. 27

Exactly what Father Keating teaches about Centering Prayer. It’'s not the prayer method, but God who brings us closer. It is God working in us, through his transforming grace.

How is my statement about ruts and method misinformed and when commenting on a prayer method how is that personally rude to you? I made no rude comment on you personally, but you have on people including myself which I don’t care what you think of me and I am not worried about receiving insults or mocking my typing errors.

Saying that us people who do CP are in a rut and we create God?

Nothing could be futher from the truth concerning CP. In Centering Prayer, we’re not even to create images of God, because then we’re creating God in our own image, rather being created in his.

Jesus doesn’t fill voids, He is the fullness of everything. And if it is Jesus who transforms your life as you rightly say then why bother with any method?

Jesus fills our hearts, but our hearts must be detached from anything that draws us from him. We empty our hearts of desires that impediments to union with Christ. St. John of the Cross explains that the appetites must be purged, before spiritual union can take place.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jim, if what you say is true . . . it sure would be nice to see some sign of that in your posts.

Why can’t you talk in a charitable way to people holding differing points of view? To be honest, I’d REALLY like to have an open, meaningful discussion with you . . . as I’m sure many others would too.

But it’s impossible to get past all the emotionalism, defensiveness, axe-grinding and name calling to actually hear what you have to say – which is a real shame because I think you have a lot to offer. Show us your fruit . . . don’t just tell us you have it.

Think about it please.

Dave.

Dave,
Huh? I’ve been told that people who do CP are in a rut, create God and are will never mature spiritually, etc.

I guess I don’t understand how I’m the one not being charitable here.

 

[InLight247]

To me, the format of “continual prayer” and “prayer with work” is best defined by
St. Terese’s “little ways”. When we remind ourselves to do all things out of love for Christ, while we sanctify the trivial things in our daily life, the routines and trivial things gain a new meaning and become significant. Thus we combine work with prayer, prayer with work. Prayer and life which is full of works, are inseparable.

With that said, I believe each of us grows spiritually in different ways. Each of us is uniquely led by our Lord. We ought to avoid being judgmental to anyone else.
We can not judge another’s spiritual fruits from one single aspect either. A person could be quick and rush tempered in some area which does not necessarily mean that person is lack of love and fruit in other areas. Of course, we all have areas needs to be improved if we realize it. With our fallen nature, at least for myself, I could easily fall in one area, which does not mean I have no fruit in other areas. For me, if I was pointed out for my weakness or shortcomings, either by others or by the Holy Spirit, I’ll quickly admit it and strive to do better in the future. The best way to give advice to our brothers and sisters is to speak honestly with love. The best way to receive advice from others is to be humble and have humility in the Lord.

 

[DBT]

I guess I don’t understand how I’m the one not being charitable here.

Jim, you were first called to the mat on this by JLCasey way back in post #21. Multiple people have come to the same conclusion since then. Try listening.

No doubt you’re feeling a bit lonely on this thread . . . but it isn’t for the beliefs you hold, IMHO; it’s for the way you conduct yourself. Clear and simple.

I know you aren’t able to see any of this Jim, so it’s pointless to keep discussing it. But in case you’re even remotely curious to see what other people are seeing, why don’t you go back and count the number of times you used the words misinformed, misunderstood, wrong, ignorant or anything else with a negative connotation in reference to another posters comments. 10 times? 25 times? More? Maybe then the light might go off.

Jim, unless you can learn how to play with the other kids in the sandbox, I see no reason to respond further.

Dave

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well it’s obvious that I’ve been misunderstood, but I can see that it’s my fault for not expressing myself better.

No offense was intended towards anyone and if any one was offended, I whole heartedly, apoligize!

In Christ
Jim

 

[blessedstar]

Well it’s obvious that I’ve been misunderstood, but I can see that it’s my fault for not expressing myself better.

No offense was intended towards anyone and if any one was offended, I whole heartedly, apoligize!

In Christ
Jim

Those who have responded to you have understood you. I used to think that if I wasn’t agreed with I must be misunderstood, how patronising was that of me, of course I am understood just not always agreed with and that is ok. I would like you to explain why CP is not a method and though you have replied you have not stated how it is not.

I did not say ‘create God’ what I said was ‘I will create’ instead of ‘God will create’ if we use a formula we do not allow God to lead us in prayer, already we have formed the method of the prayer and we pronounce how it will be, so this does not say ‘God will create’, but ‘I will create’.

Thank you for the apology although personally I don’t seek an apology but only that this debate can be conducted kindly towards each other.

If the Holy Father wasn’t speaking about CP what ‘technique’ or ‘method’ was he speaking about? I know of no other ‘method’ of prayer promoted in this day and age in Catholic Circles. It is widely know that CP aimed to combine Christian Tradition with that of Eastern Traditions, it is not taken from Lectio Divinia. The Holy Father has said it is a technique and also described it as a possibility of falling into a rut along with many other criticisms of it. When I used those words I had not had sight of that Letter the Holy Father has written, the first time I knew of it was when Augustine posted it up after alot of homework and effort on his part. Do you address the same accusations against the Holy Father or against St Teresa? I don’t mind what I am accused of, but I would like to understand why you will not consider these points made by learned people even if you will not accept them from someone like me.

 

[blessedstar]

To me, the format of “continual prayer” and “prayer with work” is best defined by
St. Terese’s “little ways”. When we remind ourselves to do all things out of love for Christ, while we sanctify the trivial things in our daily life, the routines and trivial things gain a new meaning and become significant. Thus we combine work with prayer, prayer with work. Prayer and life which is full of works, are inseparable.

QUOTE]

There are many paths our Lord leads us on, we do not create the path.

When life becomes prayer it does not become significant, it becomes holy. Our whole life is sanctified and prayer is continuous because those little actions or words said are not just gathering more importance, they are holy actions of prayer, love and service to God and the whole of life is prayer. Some years ago the Late Pontiff Pope John Paul II described Carmel as ‘Where life is prayer and prayer becomes life.’ John Paul was a Third Order Carmelite and his whole service as Holy Father can be seen in this light, especially at the end of his life here on earth which was his greatest prayer for his own soul and for the world.

St Therese of the Child Jesus and of the Holy Face knew this and so did Brother Lawrence, but they also knew all holiness proceeds from the Lord and no good thing can be done by human effort but only by human will united to the grace of God. It is God who creates and re-creates in His Grace, which is Love and is so freely given.

These are all God’s gifts and we cannot manipulate them nor manipulate God.

In stating that a practise may not be a good practise does not comment on a person. St Teresa desired all souls would have union with Jesus but she did warn her sisters of the dangers and pitfalls on the path to union, that is a work of mercy and kindness for which, among her good works of reforming Carmel, she has been Beatified and made Doctor of the Church. When I first started out in formation the Sister in charge of me used to ‘get on my case’ as I put it , regularly and so did the Priest thank God they did, they have my souls’ best interests at heart and now I wait for a word of wisdom from her to set me straight or keep me straight.

St Teresa does not ever advise staying within a particular level in the Mansion, she always encourages us to advance, to desire to advance but to do so in humility to the Lord. She also states that souls do not advance and this almost always is because they cling onto things either spiritual or physical and sometimes due to sin.

 

[blessedstar]

Centering Prayer is a method of prayer, which prepares us to receive the gift of God’s presence, traditionally called contemplative prayer. It consists of responding to the Spirit of Christ by consenting to God’s presence and action within. It furthers the development of contemplative prayer by quieting our faculties to cooperate with the gift of God’s presence.

Centering Prayer facilitates the movement from more active modes of prayer — verbal, mental or affective prayer — into a receptive prayer of resting in God. It emphasizes prayer as a personal relationship with God. At the same time, it is a discipline to foster and serve this relationship by a regular, daily practice of prayer. It is Trinitarian in its source, Christ-centered in its focus, and ecclesial in its effects; that is, it builds communities of faith.

Centering Prayer is drawn from ancient prayer practices of the Christian contemplative heritage, notably the Fathers and Mothers of the Desert, Lectio Divina, (praying the scriptures), The Cloud of Unknowing, St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila… It was distilled into a simple method of prayer in the 1970’s by three Trappist monks, Fr. William Meninger, Fr. Basil Pennington and Abbot Thomas Keating at the Trappist Abbey, St. Joseph’s Abbey in Spencer, Massachusetts.

centeringprayer.com/cntrgpryr.htm

 

[blessedstar]

The Method of Centering Prayer
Centering Prayer is a method designed to facilitate the development of contemplative prayer by preparing our faculties to cooperate with this gift. It is an attempt to present the teaching of earlier time (e.g. The Cloud of Unknowing ) in an updated form and to put a certain order and regularity into it. It is not meant to replace other kinds of prayer; it simply puts other kinds of prayer into a new and fuller perspective. During the time of prayer we consent to God’s presence and action within. At other times our attention moves outward to discover God’s presence everywhere.
cellofpeace.com/cp_method.htm

And on it goes all stating that Centering Prayer is a ‘method’

 

[blessedstar]

Then the sites pointing out the dangers of CP

ourladyswarriors.org/dissent/centerprayer.htm

catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9802ltrs.asp

dotm.org/decelles-1.htm

catholicculture.org/sites/site_view.cfm?recnum=2828

etc

Decide and choose for yourselves.

 

[DBT]

No offense was intended towards anyone and if any one was offended, I whole heartedly, apoligize!

Well maybe we can all get a fresh start now.

As I mentioned earlier, I do value what you have to say and I’m very curious to know your opinion on certain things. You and I haven’t always seen eye-to-eye about Carmel and CP . . . and that’s OK.

As a point of background, there was a time when I was very interested in finding direct linkages between the teachings of Fr. Keating and St. Teresa. I WANTED to find it. But after nearly two years of trying, I gave up. I saw no direct links; only a few things that could be called general “similarities” . . . like those that I mentioned in my post a while back. Even then, the few “similarities” I found were strictly confined in the 4th Dwelling of Interior Castle and chapters 28 and beyond in Way of Perfection. This, as you know, is the way of contemplatives.

It seems pretty clear to me St. Teresa was not in favor of the type of prayer practices that generally fall under the heading of CP prior to one already being brought to contemplation. You seem to think otherwise.

Can you show me what you see, that I don’t see, in dwellings 1-3 of Interior Castle that support your point of view?

Thanks!

Dave.

 

[InLight247]

Then the sites pointing out the dangers of CP

ourladyswarriors.org/dissent/centerprayer.htm

catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9802ltrs.asp

dotm.org/decelles-1.htm

catholicculture.org/sites/site_view.cfm?recnum=2828
etc
Decide and choose for yourselves.

I am confused.You said these are sites point out danger of CP.
I checked one of them, catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9802ltrs.asp, below is what it said, I didn’t finish the whole article.

After reading Fr. John Dreher’s critique of centering prayer “The Danger of Centering Prayer,” November 1997], I had to dig up my retreat notes and books to see if he could possibly have been discussing the same contemplative prayer preparation method I have experienced. After scouring the books of Fr. Thomas Keating, I was unable to locate any of the “bogeyman” dangers identified by Fr. Dreher. Nothing is easier than to build a straw man and then knock it down. I was relieved to discover that Fr. Dreher was obviously referring to some imaginary construct of his own making rather than the prayer method taught by Fr. Keating.

I have spent up to two weeks, eight hours a day, in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, engaged in contemplative prayer, utilizing, in part, the centering prayer method. The retreat master was an expert in spiritual warfare, psychology, and contemplative prayer. The centering prayer method assisted me in silencing what St. Teresa of Avila refers to as the “jabbering jester” inside the mind. Thomas Merton uses the term “birds of appetite” to refer to the tendency of the mind to cling to meaningless ideas and impressions rather than remaining open to the possibilities of God. In any case, anyone serious about prayer should have a spiritual director to address the anecdotal problems described by Fr. Dreher, which can occur with any kind of prayer.

Contrary to Fr. Dreher’s erroneous claim, centering prayer is not designed to “bring the practitioner into the center of his own being.” Fr. Keating clearly states that the centering prayer method is not an end, but only “a way to reduce the ordinary obstacles to contemplative prayer, by clearing the mind.” The “mantra” of centering prayer must be a sacred or holy word which allows one to move back to God when thoughts drift off to extraneous matters. **In fact, centering prayer is a very disciplined way of preparing for contemplation and far from the mindlessness described by Fr. Dreher. **

This is from Catholic.com/thisrock. The very site we are on.

Please understand I am not for CP, nor against it. My knowledge about any topics we are discussing here is limited. I am trying to learn. I am not trying to argue with you, not at all.

 

[blessedstar]

The similarities between centering prayer and Transcendental Meditation are striking. “As an ex-TM mediator,” says Fr. Finbarr Flanagan, O.F.M., “I find it hard to see any differences between centering prayer and Transcendental Meditation.” Frs. Keating, Menninger, and Pennington authored centering prayer at a time when St. Joseph Abbey had received several retreats involving Eastern religions, including Transcendental Meditation. I cited Fr. Pennington’s praise for the Hindu guru and author of Transcendental Meditation. This involvement in eclecticism has continued. Fr. Pennington has not just attended an e.s.t (Erhard Sensitivity Training) session but has served on its board. Frs. Keating and Pennington gave endorsements, appearing on the dust jacket, for Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey in Christian Hermeticism. The tarot is a deck of cards used in fortune telling. Fr. Keating calls the book “the greatest contribution to date toward the rediscovery and renewal of the Christian contemplative tradition.” Fr. Pennington says it is “without doubt the most extraordinary work I have ever read.” Amity House, the publisher, is heavily New Age. The Library of Congress has classified the book under “occult sciences” and “cartomancy.”

catholicculture.org/sites/site_view.cfm?recnum=2828

 

[blessedstar]

I am confused.You said these are sites point out danger of CP.
I checked one of them, catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9802ltrs.asp, below is what it said, I didn’t finish the whole article.

After reading Fr. John Dreher’s critique of centering prayer “The Danger of Centering Prayer,” November 1997], I had to dig up my retreat notes and books to see if he could possibly have been discussing the same contemplative prayer preparation method I have experienced. After scouring the books of Fr. Thomas Keating, I was unable to locate any of the “bogeyman” dangers identified by Fr. Dreher. Nothing is easier than to build a straw man and then knock it down. I was relieved to discover that Fr. Dreher was obviously referring to some imaginary construct of his own making rather than the prayer method taught by Fr. Keating.

I have spent up to two weeks, eight hours a day, in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, engaged in contemplative prayer, utilizing, in part, the centering prayer method. The retreat master was an expert in spiritual warfare, psychology, and contemplative prayer. The centering prayer method assisted me in silencing what St. Teresa of Avila refers to as the “jabbering jester” inside the mind. Thomas Merton uses the term “birds of appetite” to refer to the tendency of the mind to cling to meaningless ideas and impressions rather than remaining open to the possibilities of God. In any case, anyone serious about prayer should have a spiritual director to address the anecdotal problems described by Fr. Dreher, which can occur with any kind of prayer.

Contrary to Fr. Dreher’s erroneous claim, centering prayer is not designed to “bring the practitioner into the center of his own being.” Fr. Keating clearly states that the centering prayer method is not an end, but only “a way to reduce the ordinary obstacles to contemplative prayer, by clearing the mind.” The “mantra” of centering prayer must be a sacred or holy word which allows one to move back to God when thoughts drift off to extraneous matters. **In fact, centering prayer is a very disciplined way of preparing for contemplation and far from the mindlessness described by Fr. Dreher. **

This is from Catholic.com/thisrock. The very site we are on.

Please understand I am not for CP, nor against it. My knowledge about any topics we are discussing here is limited. I am trying to learn. I am not trying to argue with you, not at all.

I am sorry I placed that in the wrong post. I made two posts one to describe and promote CP and one post to point out dangers of CP because to be honest I don’t want to argue about it, this thread is leaving my heart sad. In Carmel here we are not encouraged to practise CP and no longer use the books for formation that used to be sent to us from the USA which has heavy content of CP and reference to Thomas Merton and Pennington

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I know it was concerning that Father Pennington and Father Keating were involved with dialog between leaders of Eastern Religions.

However, this was asked of them, by the Vatican’s Congregation of Interreligious Dialog.

Here’s a statement from Pope John Paul II;

“May all of you–partners in interreligious dialog–be encouraged and sustained by the knowledge that your endeavors are supported by the Catholic Church and appreciated by her as significant for strengthening the bonds which unite all people…”

 "...in doing so (receiving monks of other religions) you offer a setting wherein a meeting of mind and heart can take place, a meeting characterized by a shared sense of brotherhood in the one human family that opens the way of even deeper spiritual dialog."

The purpose of dialog is to learn about each other, and take was is good as a common bond.

Jim