J
Joysong
Guest
You lost me a little, Dave. What does “none of this” refer to? Distractions? It is my understanding that when the faculties are totally suspended by GOD, there are no distractions. Is that your meaning?
- Status
D
DBT
Guest
oops! I can see your confusion.
What I tried to say is that Brother Lawrence talks about turning away from distracting thoughts while not in a state of suspension. In fact, we aren’t even at prayer in the “formal” sense Fr. Keating teaches (i.e. sit down for 20 minutes, close one’s eyes, repeat the sacred word looking for interior stillness) — we are simply going about our daily business and thinking about God at the same time.Br. Lawrence teaches that no matter what we do; whether at work, at the grocery store, playing with the kids in the backyard . . . whatever – in the midst of all these activities we are to turn to Him inwardly in interior adoration as often as possible
In the context of Br. Lawrence, the idea of the “sacred word” seems entirely appropriate to me. In fact, I often find myself simply saying “Jesus” as a means of brief recollection . . . no matter what activity I might be doing . . . even in the midst of writing this post.
More often, though, this recollection of Br. Lawrence is wordless . . . an “inward gaze” or “smile” to the God whom one knows is present within.The key point I tried to make - and evidently didn’t do so - is that, while recollected perhaps, the faculties are not absorbed or suspended in infused contemplation at such times . . . and is why everyone can do it. This, to me, is the essence of Br. Lawrence’s teaching . . . and what I hoped to say.
What Fr. Keating is talking about, however, in “Intimacy with God” his how to deal with distractions while in the midst of infused prayer. . . much like how we all talked about St. Teresa’s description of “gently puffing on the candle” from Way of Perfection.
He is talking about a “formal” time of prayer (i.e. sit down for 20 minutes, close one’s eyes, repeat the sacred word looking for interior stillness) and his whole discussion revolves around turning away from thoughts during this progressive stillness as prayer deepens. The illustrations I gave from the previous post are his way of showing the reader the aborbtion/suspension taught by Teresa and the purgative aspects of this contemplation taught by John.
Does this help???
Dave
J
Joysong
Guest
Dear InLight,
You have wonderfully and providentially provided confirmation of what some of us have said all along [blue highlight] regarding CP with this gentleman’s testimony.
Apparently Richard Parker was walking in deception, as many could do who are not properly instructed. I got a flush of intense anger as I read the part about imposing this on the entire group of people without discerning their readiness, nor without laying a proper foundation! This is what happened to me, as well.
You have wonderfully and providentially provided confirmation of what some of us have said all along [blue highlight] regarding CP with this gentleman’s testimony.
How was he able to know the false from the true? Experience of the “real thing” first. And this is the basis of how many are able to speak out in discernment of that which is not authentic prayer.
Apparently Richard Parker was walking in deception, as many could do who are not properly instructed. I got a flush of intense anger as I read the part about imposing this on the entire group of people without discerning their readiness, nor without laying a proper foundation! This is what happened to me, as well.
J
Joysong
Guest
Yes, this is clear now, and it is exactly what all of the other teachers of prayer have to say, including St. Teresa in Ch. 29 W/P. The recollection is “acquired” and is a wonderful practice for ALL to learn, for we are able to pray without ceasing, so to speak, keeping the Lord with us always.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
I’m cautious of information posted on web-sites and especially this one seems a little suspicious for me.
Myself, I never heard of any one doing CP and experiencing what Richard Parker described.
Father Keating himself says What Centering Prayer is not:
It is not a technique. It is not a relaxation exercise.
It is not a form of self-hypnosis. It is not a charismatic gift.
It is not a para-psychological phenomenon.
It is not limited to the “felt” presence of God.
It is not discursive meditation or affective prayer.
I have an aunt who is a schizophreniac. She claims to have religious experiences that some might think are legit. However, if she stays on her medication, these experiences go away. I’m serious.
Jim
I
InLight247
Guest
Jim, I agree. Fr. Keating did emphasized all these.
CP intends to follow classics. That’s probably why many Carmelites promote it. And books like “Fire Within”, “Finding the Mystics Within You” have nothing against it.
Fr. Keating did talk about striving for holiness, purification, etc in his books. However, because most CP summary we found only emphasize “sacred words”, “steps”, and methods, without emphasizing Gospel living, virtues, etc, it is easy for people without solid understanding of the Saints’ teachings, neglect the true foundation of contemplation, and mislead themselves.
While CP is meant to be Christ centered, if CP has weaved in oriental meditation techniques, a person at a shallow stage of his faith and spirituality, could easily run into deception and danger like this Richard Parker. That’s why when a person applies CP - before or after being granted the gift of contemplation, makes difference.
There are all kind of spirits in the spiritual realm. One has to be extremely careful. What Richard Parker described is absolutely non-Christian and deviates from the truth. He said he has nobody direct him, and obviously his own understanding is very insufficient. He claimed he was studying Hinduism. In this case, it is NOT the fault of CP’s basic theory, it is the fault of this person’s own ignorance.
The classic teachings from Church Doctors should always be the doctrines to follow. Gospel living and striving for holiness are the basics for every Christian, whether we are able to receive the gift of infused contemplation or not.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
I agree!
People, generally refered to as New Agers, will take from all religions, and distort their true teachings, to suit their own ideas.
They’ve taken parts of the Mass for their own ends and even use Scripture. I’m sure if they find something attractive in Medjigoria, they’ll use that as well.
However, should this mean that Father Keating, should not teach centering prayer? If so, we could find ourselves back in the days just before St. Teresa, where contemplation was not spoken of outside of monasteries, and mental prayer was forbidden, especially by women.
For the most part, people who are not Christ centered, may try CP and claim all shorts of extrodinary things, but they’ll eventually give it up, as they hear of other things that beat their experiecnes and they’ll be drawn to them. Ego’s are in play here.
In Christ
Jim
People, generally refered to as New Agers, will take from all religions, and distort their true teachings, to suit their own ideas.
They’ve taken parts of the Mass for their own ends and even use Scripture. I’m sure if they find something attractive in Medjigoria, they’ll use that as well.
However, should this mean that Father Keating, should not teach centering prayer? If so, we could find ourselves back in the days just before St. Teresa, where contemplation was not spoken of outside of monasteries, and mental prayer was forbidden, especially by women.
For the most part, people who are not Christ centered, may try CP and claim all shorts of extrodinary things, but they’ll eventually give it up, as they hear of other things that beat their experiecnes and they’ll be drawn to them. Ego’s are in play here.
In Christ
Jim
I
InLight247
Guest
How many people are actually researching CP so seriously like the discussions engaged here on this thread?
If a person only read some online summary of CP, or even read one book about CP, and just jump into the practice without thorough understanding of it, and without solid spirituality foundation, they can run into problems.
There are advantages and disadvantages for nowadays’ handy online resources in this information age.
If a person only read some online summary of CP, or even read one book about CP, and just jump into the practice without thorough understanding of it, and without solid spirituality foundation, they can run into problems.
There are advantages and disadvantages for nowadays’ handy online resources in this information age.
I
InLight247
Guest
That is so beautiful! Actually that is what I have been doing for long time, an “inward gaze”, whatever, whenever and wherever! That is the same thing “Fire Within” was explaining in the beginning of Teresa’s 4th Mansion. (I’ll give you the page # when I go home, I just reread that part last night.) Most frequently my sacred word is “I love you, Lord.” to reflect my true feeling inside.Br. Lawrence teaches that no matter what we do; whether at work, at the grocery store, playing with the kids in the backyard . . . whatever – in the midst of all these activities we are to turn to Him inwardly in interior adoration as often as possible
In the context of Br. Lawrence, the idea of the “sacred word” seems entirely appropriate to me. In fact, I often find myself simply saying “Jesus” as a means of brief recollection . . . no matter what activity I might be doing . . . even in the midst of writing this post.
The key point I tried to make - and evidently didn’t do so - is that, while recollected perhaps, the faculties are not absorbed or suspended in infused contemplation at such times . . . and is why everyone can do it. This, to me, is the essence of Br. Lawrence’s teaching . . . and what I hoped to say.
Dave
Everyone can do so, but not everyone will do so. Doing so, I think, aslo has to be attracted and quickened by God, by the Holy Spirit.
By the way, what book of Br. Lawerence can I read?
D
DBT
Guest
I’m glad you liked the Brother Lawrence references – he’s my namesake in Carmel: Lawrence of the Blessed Sacrament.
And, actually, there’s only one book: “Practice of the Presence of God.” It’s a compilation of his letters and summaries of conversations he had with his biographer. So in the strict sense, he never actually “wrote” a book.
I’m very partial to the version by Fr. Conrad de Meester from ICS because of all the additional explanatory material he provides – tieing the thoughts of Br. Lawrence back to St. Teresa, St. John and especially St. Therese; whom the author feels pre-figured this great saint in the way of abandonment.
Here’s the link:
www.icspublications.com/bookstore/others/b_others09.html
Some people might not want all that extra info, though. If not, I think Amazon has a translation for about $5.
Hope this helps!
Dave.
D
DBT
Guest
. . . and here’s a web site containing reflections on Br. Lawrence’s writings. I have no idea who put this together, though. It’s likely to be by a protestant group, seeing they “adopted” him in the late 1600’s after watching a couple of Catholic Cardinal’s bicker over who had the best viewpoint on his thought . . . kinda’ like what’s going on here, don’t you think 
Honest, it’s the truth and Fr. de Meester goes into copious detail about it all.
The good thing that came out of the dispute is that Brother Lawrence tends to have pretty much universal Christian appeal . . . while still being completely Catholic at the same time.
www.practicegodspresence.com/
Dave
Honest, it’s the truth and Fr. de Meester goes into copious detail about it all.The good thing that came out of the dispute is that Brother Lawrence tends to have pretty much universal Christian appeal . . . while still being completely Catholic at the same time.
www.practicegodspresence.com/
Dave
B
blessedstar
Guest
At the risk of muddying the waters yet again I am going to say this yet again and hope that anyone who reads it will take it as a reasonable observation to make, God willing, and if it is found not to be then disgard it .
When a soul is striving for acquired contemplation they are also being purged as these stages are not strictly in an ABC fashion, rather like walking through a house a soul can enter back and forth through the rooms of this Mansion and as long as they do not break with God’s grace they will not backslide. Still venial sin remains still a sin and God will even purge such a soul of venial sin if the soul would strive for it and so purgation is unceasing in this sense. If a soul attempts certain methods at this stage to acquired contemplation it can cause many problems especially where sin is concerned and especially taking into account the state of the soul and also the disposition of the person, whether they be nervous, sensitive or prone to anxiety.
When God grants infused contemplation there is no need for the soul to act at all, rendering all methods useless. Infused contemplation is God’s profound action upon the entire person, soul, mind and body. What happens at the point this happens is that the soul obviously has to place itself in God’s Presence and by that I am careful now to refer to the fact that soul already knows of God’s constant Presence, but in simple turning to the Lord, He ‘ceases’ the soul and infuses Himself at this point so that the soul purely contemplates Him with such a profound stillness of soul and mind that this cannot be achieved by human means. This does not mean thereafter the soul continues to contemplate God in this infused manner, because it is gifted and then after a small period of time, minutes, it ceases.
The soul realises that all of her efforts to attain this are in some ways fraudulant, if that is the right word because truly the soul is sincere in her striving to please the Lord and seek His face, but the soul knows that what has passed before is inferior and a poor imitation of infused contemplation. Her methods seem like childs play and she is somewhat ashamed of these silly efforts she made, but and here is the big but…if the soul had not made effort she would not have pleased the Lord in being careful to dispose the soul towards Him.
These ways of seeking the face of God did not win His desire to make any sort of union with the soul, but it was the continual striving of the will in humility to constantly seek His face and whatever inadequate method the soul may have used it was the intent of the soul and it’s attitude He looked at rather than the ‘method’. The method would not win His affections but the disposition of the soul and it’s intent, which must always be the intent of love.
This is why I say method can be pitfall and rut. Not only this but a soul who is not guided by anyone undertaking such practises may believe they have attained infused contemplation, may experience spirits that are not of God, may experience an attatchment to a method that is not spiritually healthy, etc
Please disregard this post if it is not helpful to this debate.
God Bless you all.
.When a soul is striving for acquired contemplation they are also being purged as these stages are not strictly in an ABC fashion, rather like walking through a house a soul can enter back and forth through the rooms of this Mansion and as long as they do not break with God’s grace they will not backslide. Still venial sin remains still a sin and God will even purge such a soul of venial sin if the soul would strive for it and so purgation is unceasing in this sense. If a soul attempts certain methods at this stage to acquired contemplation it can cause many problems especially where sin is concerned and especially taking into account the state of the soul and also the disposition of the person, whether they be nervous, sensitive or prone to anxiety.
When God grants infused contemplation there is no need for the soul to act at all, rendering all methods useless. Infused contemplation is God’s profound action upon the entire person, soul, mind and body. What happens at the point this happens is that the soul obviously has to place itself in God’s Presence and by that I am careful now to refer to the fact that soul already knows of God’s constant Presence, but in simple turning to the Lord, He ‘ceases’ the soul and infuses Himself at this point so that the soul purely contemplates Him with such a profound stillness of soul and mind that this cannot be achieved by human means. This does not mean thereafter the soul continues to contemplate God in this infused manner, because it is gifted and then after a small period of time, minutes, it ceases.
The soul realises that all of her efforts to attain this are in some ways fraudulant, if that is the right word because truly the soul is sincere in her striving to please the Lord and seek His face, but the soul knows that what has passed before is inferior and a poor imitation of infused contemplation. Her methods seem like childs play and she is somewhat ashamed of these silly efforts she made, but and here is the big but…if the soul had not made effort she would not have pleased the Lord in being careful to dispose the soul towards Him.
These ways of seeking the face of God did not win His desire to make any sort of union with the soul, but it was the continual striving of the will in humility to constantly seek His face and whatever inadequate method the soul may have used it was the intent of the soul and it’s attitude He looked at rather than the ‘method’. The method would not win His affections but the disposition of the soul and it’s intent, which must always be the intent of love.
This is why I say method can be pitfall and rut. Not only this but a soul who is not guided by anyone undertaking such practises may believe they have attained infused contemplation, may experience spirits that are not of God, may experience an attatchment to a method that is not spiritually healthy, etc
Please disregard this post if it is not helpful to this debate.
God Bless you all.
J
Joysong
Guest
If I take these words literally, I would have to assume that the author knew very little about true love of God and guess that she may have been taught this by others or else read about it somewhere.
You remain rather fixed with the idea of there being no methods, as you have repeated this in several posts now. That is your opinion, and you are free to believe as you like, and share your ideas. I don’t know what the O’Carms teach in their meetings, but this is not Teresian what you share here. St. Teresa also wrote fluently about the Songs of Songs, one of her most ardent expressions of love of God.
One can see why this short book of scripture is so inspiring and why St. Teresa loved it so.
If finding him is the exhuberant joy of infused contemplation, then seeking him is the continual going about the streets and crossings of “recollection.” Never would a soul feel ashamed to engage in a method of seeking, just because it was not the same as beholding or embracing. The lesser joy of being able to know God is within, and turn to him attentively, even though there is no embrace of contemplation, is a joy that few will understand until they learn the “method.”
To one who is extremely thirsty, a few drops of water will suffice, rather than a full glass. Would you advise a person not to delight in the drop because it is “fraudulent” and “silly” compared to the cup? It seems so. Would you then tell a married couple never to speak or hold hands because it is silly compared to the joys of marital union? No. Those who love, love always, everywhere. Mary loved Jesus equally at the foot of the cross as she did in choosing the “better part” to sit at His side.
B
blessedstar
Guest
The soul is not fraudulant, on the contrary the soul as you say, in love and falling ever deeper in love, seeks God and because the soul loves it seeks using every fibre and takes on methods because of the love God inspires in the soul to love and seek Him. Everything is a grace.
These ‘methods’ are nothing but vehicles, like a crutch. They prop up our love and aid it to seek God, but it is not the action of the soul, the soul is not the method. The method didn’t bring about the increase in love, but God brought it about in the soul which propped up by method continued to seek Him.
This is what I am saying and this is why the once important method seems like child’s play, seems silly because it wasn’t that important, the love growing in the heart is what is important. I am saying don’t love the method, it is not what is to be loved and held onto.
I seem to annoy and I apologise for that.
These ‘methods’ are nothing but vehicles, like a crutch. They prop up our love and aid it to seek God, but it is not the action of the soul, the soul is not the method. The method didn’t bring about the increase in love, but God brought it about in the soul which propped up by method continued to seek Him.
This is what I am saying and this is why the once important method seems like child’s play, seems silly because it wasn’t that important, the love growing in the heart is what is important. I am saying don’t love the method, it is not what is to be loved and held onto.
I seem to annoy and I apologise for that.
J
Joysong
Guest
Nobody is suggesting that a person “love the method,” that I could see. But it is excellent to learn it, and after it is learned and is habitual, it is no longer needed, as Dave said. He just turns to God now with a gaze of love, without even using a short prayer, throughout his busy day. That is the goal of love, brought about by the Teresian instruction that helps form the wonderful habit.
In the book Dave mentioned, Bro. Lawrence had to “learn” also, and tells of his struggle to achieve recollection. Afterwards it was a joy and delight to be in God’s presence — no more learning.
St. Teresa “learned” her recollection from Osuna and in turn, taught it to her daughters, as we discussed earlier. BTW, the book is 600 pages long, and we find so many ideas that she adopted in her own teaching – the hedgehog, the dilation of the heart, and the conduits of water. She obviously spent much time with his writings, and not a casual glance through them.
I
InLight247
Guest
To seek God, we need to make efforts. To make efforts, we use methods to help.
Lectio Divina is a method, a step by step method: 1. reading/listening 2. meditation 3.prayer 4. contemplation. If this classic way of praying is not a method, what is it?
There is nothing wrong about using method, and I don’t see any need to debate on it. Nobody has said God loves method, or method will win His affection.
But God surely appreciates our efforts that are developed through methods.
As an experienced computer professional who works with logics every single day, I have hard time to figure out the logic in your postings.
B
blessedstar
Guest
That is all very true but you are not the method and Jesus is not the method. That is all the point I am making and yes we need to make effort and that is what God is looking at the effort of the heart to love and whatever the methods are they are not what is important, it is the effort, the effort to seek God and love Him.
I am thinking of St Paul when he speaks of being a clanging cymbal or a noisy gong because without the intent of love or the love of the heart all efforts, all gifts are clanging gongs etc …
This is why I am saying that the disposition and attitude of the soul is more important than method.
I don’t dislike method, of course not. I am saying don’t cling to the method because this is not the object of our love, that is all I am saying, because people do love methods and they cling onto them.
I
InLight247
Guest
Again, no one has said “we are the method” or “Jesus is the method”. And in our discussion, no one has advocated to “love method” more than “love God”.That is all very true but you are not the method and Jesus is not the method. That is all the point I am making and yes we need to make effort and that is what God is looking at the effort of the heart to love and whatever the methods are they are not what is important, it is the effort, the effort to seek God and love Him.
I am thinking of St Paul when he speaks of being a clanging cymbal or a noisy gong because without the intent of love or the love of the heart all efforts, all gifts are clanging gongs etc …
This is why I am saying that the disposition and attitude of the soul is more important than method.
I don’t dislike method, of course not. I am saying don’t cling to the method because this is not the object of our love, that is all I am saying, because people do love methods and they cling onto them.
Also, “method” and “love” are not the case of “If A, then not B”.
So, there is no problem you need to worry about to start with.
D
DBT
Guest
Great!
In the meantime, feel free to check out the link I provided earlier:
www.practicegodspresence.com/
His conversations/letters can be found on the left hand side of the page and should quickly give you a flavor of his thinking. This is not as complete as the book you ordered; nevertheless it’s a good starting point. From what I remember, the reflections are very good too.
I’ve been tied up with family matters this evening and have not had the opportunity to review any of the recent posts so this might be said out of context . . . my apologies to all, if so.
Brother Lawrence was an utterly simple man who walked in the way of pure faith and pure love - completely non controversial, loved by all who knew him . . . Catholics and Protestants alike. His fruit was obvious to all and was like a magnet that attracted people from all walks of life.
His way is often called the “methodless method” and is nothing more or less than the habitual turning to God in silent, interior adoration throughout all one’s daily activities. He stresses continually this is a learned habit (i.e. acquired contemplation), very difficult at first; but becomes fluid, natural and intuitive with practice. In time and God’s grace it becomes, I believe, nothing less than the Holy Spirit acting within us — guiding all our thoughts, words and actions according to God’s will.
Br. Lawrence was no stranger to infused contemplation as well and God graced him abundantly in this regard; but he had a very strong aversion to any of the more “extra ordinary phenomena” such as visions, locutions and revelations. He was the very definition of humility . . . a contemplative model for all.
He endured St. John’s night of the spirit very early on in his life in Carmel . . . bringing him to the very brink of despair – the point of the controversy between the 2 Cardinals I mentioned earlier. However, in a simple act of complete abandonment he was transformed and instantly freed from the weight of all his suffering.
This lowest of the lowliest Carmelite lay brothers then lived another 40+ years in a state of complete and total peace and joy that utterly astounded all who met him . . . especially the high and mighty within the Church. As I mentioned earlier, when I read St. Teresa’s description of the 7th dwelling or St. John’s discussion of the spiritual marriage in Spiritual Canticle – I can think of no better example of who they have in mind than Br. Lawrence himself.
Well, enough of the sales pitch
Read his words . . . he speaks for himself Dave
- Status