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InLight247
Guest
If you read “Fire Within” from the middle part of page 87 to the end of page 88, aren’t that similiar things you are talking about?…
In the context of Br. Lawrence, the idea of the “sacred word” seems entirely appropriate to me. In fact, **I often find myself simply saying “Jesus” as a means of brief recollection . . . no matter what activity I might be doing **. . . even in the midst of writing this post.More often, though, this recollection of Br. Lawrence is wordless . . . an “inward gaze” or “smile” to the God whom one knows is present within.
The key point I tried to make - and evidently didn’t do so - is that, while recollected perhaps, the faculties are not absorbed or suspended in infused contemplation at such times . . . Dave
Oh, and page 85 and page 92 of the book mentioned CP.
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DBT
Guest
I know, the site isn’t necessarily very user friendly. Hold your mouse cursor over anything that’s in BOLD, then click and it will open up.
For example, on the main page click on "Reflections On Practicing . . . " and you will see an expanded table of contents with chapter headings like:
- The Closer Walk
- Reflections from the heart
- Brother Lawrence: A heart for God
- etc.
Thanks for the quotes from Fire Within . . . I’ll try and take a look at them tonight.
Dave.
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InLight247
Guest
Thanks, Dave! I read the 4 conversations last night, and will go over the letters tonight after “all souls day” Mass.
Later!
Later!
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
I haven’t left this conversation, I’ve just been sitting back here reading what you folks have to say, and agree with most.
In Christ Love
Jim
In Christ Love
Jim
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blessedstar
Guest
His way is often called the “methodless method” and is nothing more or less than the habitual turning to God in silent, interior adoration throughout all one’s daily activities. He stresses continually this is a learned habit (i.e. acquired contemplation), very difficult at first; but becomes fluid, natural and intuitive with practice. In time and God’s grace it becomes, I believe, nothing less than the Holy Spirit acting within us — guiding all our thoughts, words and actions according to God’s will.
Dear DBT
This part of your post stood out to me and is what I was so badly saying.
Thank you
Dear DBT
This part of your post stood out to me and is what I was so badly saying.
Thank you
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DBT
Guest
You aren’t saying anything “badly” for goodness sakesDear DBT
This part of your post stood out to me and is what I was so badly saying.
Thank you
We’re all just trying to muddle along here as best we can.Is it no wonder St. Teresa often felt like throwing in the towel when told by her superiors to write her reflections and thoughts on the interior life? So much of all this is simply beyond words
My very best to you and all this evening!
Dave.
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DBT
Guest
Yes! Recollection is another term for what we’re talking about here . . . and, of course, there’s an active/acquired and passive/infused aspect to it.
“Active” in the sense of what we’ve been talking about with Brother Lawrence – where there’s no hint of absorbtion or suspension of the faculties. “Passive” as one is drawn ever more so deeply toward true contemplative prayer. I love St. Teresa’s descriptions of this: the sense of interior quiet and solitude given to the soul by God that makes one feel like a “hedgehog curling up” or a “turtle gently pulling his head inside his shell.”
Sadly, how we are to transition from this “active” to “passive” recollection is often completly lost on the soul and our natural tendancy is to resist God’s guiding hand in our very human desire to be “doing” something in our prayer. Unless, of course, we’ve been taught how to recognize the signs.
Quite providentally, I just happenend to stumble upon this wonderful quote from Fr. Dubay’s “Prayer Primer: Ignighting a Fire Within” that I think explains this transitioning well.
Prayer Primer said:
And how are we to make ourselves more receptive to this recollection – where the “active” gives way to the “passive” naturally and effortlessly? The key, to me, can be found in this wonderful quote from Brother Lawrence:
Letter 7:
Oh, so much easier said than done
Dave
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InLight247
Guest
I Just finished reading all the letters, and will re-read them when my book arrives. His “perpetual being with God” is wonderfully expressed. Brother Lawrence has lived the teachings of 1 Th. 5:16-18, “Rejoice always. Pray without ceasing. In all circumstances give thanks………” That is a great status to be in.
Talking about recollection, I can identify with what you described in your earlier post as well as the explanations in “Fire Within”. I often find myself in a praying mode – thinking of God and having a short conversation with Him while engaging in different activities. Like Br. Lawrence said, the active/ acquired recollection could be practiced and achieved by everyone. However, as I recall my journey, I didn’t on-purposely practice this. I get here out of my weakness. As the Bible said, “For when I am weak, then I am strong.” When I went through difficult situations, I had to cling to God closely. That’s how I developed the habit of attaching to Him.
The passive recollection is what being longed for here. But the active one is the starting point.
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glimmer
Guest
Blessedstar, I am totally in your corner. I am not Catholic and maybe have no business putting in my two cents’ worth, but I would not post on this were it not for something that happened to me over 20 years ago.
When I heard of St. Teresa and St. John of the Cross, I immediately recognized their experience. I still have not read through the bulk of what they wrote…but I understand… My mystical moment came upon me quite unexpectedly. I never did meditation before or during any of that. When I read about centering prayer–this is something different.
For me to practice centering prayer after what happened to me would, at best, be trading down. I don’t believe centering prayer as a method can ever smite the spirit as effectively as a “dark night of the soul” nor lead us back into resurrection since we do not lose our lives for His sake in the process. How can we by force of human determination achieve a state of communion with God?
The disciples asked Jesus, “Lord, teach us to pray,” and He did. Did He not do a good enough job? Is not true prayer initiated by Him anyway? Why do we flock to teachers of techniques instead of to the Person of Jesus Christ? Do we not see that if we ask, we receive; if we seek, we find; and if we knock, the door will be opened unto us?
For some reason, these verses come to mind:
Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
I realize Jesus was talking about salvation, but do we not enter into that through much prayer? What is this “centering prayer”? Do we come to God by means of a technique or by means of a Person? Jesus Christ IS the Door.
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
There is nothing wrong with using methods like liturgy and readings or even formalized prayers. Centering prayer just seems like a way of controlling your own spiritual experience, and then what is the source, I wonder? I agree with prayer teachers that God is to be found within, but only if He indwells your heart in the first place. (I hope he does.)
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Augustine
Guest
It saddens me to hear a Catholic refer to prayer, the turning of the creature to its God, as a child to the Father, as a “method”, forgetting the grace that prayer is. A method presupposes an ulterior result, whereas prayer is already the result of grace: a dialog with God.
I guess that this points to a nefarious result of referring to CP, a misguided, syncretic technique, as “prayer”. Its adherents, it seems, end up regarding true prayer as another mere method, as though Jesus taught us just a “method” on the Mt. Olivet…
I pray to God to turn your heart away from CP.
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glimmer
Guest
That is a good point, Augustine. I was just picturing my parents when I was a kid, trying to imagine what if I’d had a “method” for relating to them. :whacky: Suppose all children just altered their consciences, emptied their minds and concentrated on something in order to communicate with their parents? At worst, it would be abnormal; at best–what?
Actually, my brother had a “method”–he just banged his head on doors. :banghead: That works with some parents, not with others. 
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Well St Teresa of Avila called the prayer she taught, a method.It saddens me to hear a Catholic refer to prayer, the turning of the creature to its God, as a child to the Father, as a “method”, forgetting the grace that prayer is. A method presupposes an ulterior result, whereas prayer is already the result of grace: a dialog with God.
I guess that this points to a nefarious result of referring to CP, a misguided, syncretic technique, as “prayer”. Its adherents, it seems, end up regarding true prayer as another mere method, as though Jesus taught us just a “method” on the Mt. Olivet…
I pray to God to turn your heart away from CP.
It is of such importance, daughters, for us to prepare ourselves in thy way that you must not be surprised if I often repeat this counsel. If at first you do not get on with this practice (which may happen, for the devil will try to oppress and distress your heart, knowing what great harm he can do in this way), the devil will make you think that you can find more devotion in other things and less in this. But [trust me and] do not give up this method, for the Lord will use it to prove your love for Him.
Jim
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InLight247
Guest
Jim, I have read your quote of St. Teresa somewhere but I cannot recall from which book.
In “Fire Within” page 112 and 114 mentioned about methods of prayer. It all depends on a person’s definition of method. “Method” is a wrong mentality only if the definition is to manipulate God. But I don’t think anyone uses the word “method” in that sense.
Because we love God, we are eager to have better communication with God, and get closer to Him. Therefore, we make efforts by using different approaches (methods). It is not “if we use method, then we have no love for God”. It is actually “because we love God, so we try different prayer formats(methods) to commune with Him.” For example, one person may like to pray rosary, the other may prefer mental prayers only, and another may communicate the best with his own words of vocal prayer, etc… A person should use whichever method that communes best with God. If we talk about method in this sense, maybe there is no argument. Do you agree?
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
It’s throughout The Way of Perfection. Here’s more;
"May the Lord teach this to those of you who do not know it: for my own part I must confess that, until the Lord taught me this method, I never knew what it was to get satisfaction and comfort out of prayer, and it is because I have always gained such great benefits from this custom of interior recollection[35] that I have written about it at such length. Perhaps you all know this, but some sister may come to you who will not know it, so you must not be vexed at my having spoken about it here.
I conclude by advising anyone who wishes to acquire it (since, as I say, it is in our power to do so) not to grow weary of trying to get used to the method which has been described, for it is equivalent to a gradual gaining of the mastery over herself and is not vain labour. To conquer oneself for one’s own good is to make use of the senses in the service of the interior life. If she is speaking she must try to remember that there is One within her to Whom she can speak; if she is listening, let her remember that she can listen to Him Who is nearer to her than anyone else. Briefly, let her realize that, if she likes, she need never withdraw from this good companionship, and let her grieve when she has left her Father alone for so long though her need of Him is so sore."
BTW, The Way of Perfection is on line here;catholicfirst.com/thefaith/catholicclassics/stteresa/way/wayofperfection.cfm
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InLight247
Guest
Thanks. I always enjoy reading and re-reading the writings of St.Teresa.
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tequilamac
Guest
What is your problem with the posters rendition? In fact, far from not being Teresian it is Teresian to the core and the poster has actually grapsed what Teresa of Avila was going through. St. Teresa of Avila actually did live for a time in fear that she was a fraud. She frequently felt she herself was a phony. These are her words, she wrote them and we have every reason to believe that is what she meant. Furthermore, she never backed away from her assertion that a soul could commit mortal sin at anytime right up to death, was never free of the possibility. Now I don’t know what you are calling Teresian, but your claims about her are debunked by her actual writings. The Ancient Order of Carmelites cling to the actual writings of the Saints especially St. John and Teresa. What O. Carms teach are the writings of the saints. It seems what your are expounding are merely your own interpretations of what you think she meant rather than what she actually wrote. Blessed Star is absolutely Teresian here in what she spoke. For your edification, Teresa of Avila’s discourse on what she referred to as phoniness can be found in the “The Fire Within.”
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Joysong
Guest
As long as your tone is in attack mode, it seems futile to respond. I did not see a question asking for clarification and references … rather, I observed an assumption by you, that I am wrong. How many years have you been in Carmel, and how thoroughly have you studied her teachings?
I would add that the burden of proof is upon you.
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glimmer
Guest
Bingo! The **LORD **initiated it. That’s a pregnant statement.
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Joysong
Guest
Glimmer, from your posts, I get the feeling you have not followed along nor struggled with the rest of us throughout 235 posts to understand one another and St. Teresa’s teachings.
How easy it is to read another’s brief post, take their words out of context, and apply a meaning that is not at all what St. Teresa intended. This would prove to all the world that you are right and they are wrong, huh?
Let’s back up only one paragraph in this chapter from which Jim quoted. St. Teresa wrote:
The entire chapter in the link is full of instruction to help others form the habit as they try to learn her method. It is the person who initiates it, without a shadow of a doubt, because this recollection is “acquired” and not supernatural as this chapter points out — even though the Lord* blesses* our effort and helps us understand what we read.
To be honest, this post of yours was a cartoon full of mockery and revealed a lack of willingness to understand. If you change your frame of mind, I’m sure the rest of us will be glad to discuss it further with you.
How easy it is to read another’s brief post, take their words out of context, and apply a meaning that is not at all what St. Teresa intended. This would prove to all the world that you are right and they are wrong, huh?
Let’s back up only one paragraph in this chapter from which Jim quoted. St. Teresa wrote:
JimR:
Those who studied the many works of St. Teresa would be quick to affirm that she learned this “method” from studying *Third Spiritual Alphabet, *and if you followed this thread you would have discovered that truth. Most saints attribute everything they do to the Lord, without whom we cannot take our next breath. It is a common expression.
The entire chapter in the link is full of instruction to help others form the habit as they try to learn her method. It is the person who initiates it, without a shadow of a doubt, because this recollection is “acquired” and not supernatural as this chapter points out — even though the Lord* blesses* our effort and helps us understand what we read.
To be honest, this post of yours was a cartoon full of mockery and revealed a lack of willingness to understand. If you change your frame of mind, I’m sure the rest of us will be glad to discuss it further with you.
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