Contemplativeprayer.net

[DBT]

The translation Dubay used is slightly different but teaching is the same.

The very first sentence Dubay gives us to explain the above Teresian teaching is, “Centering Prayer is not new.” Page 92 of The Fire Within.

Father Dubay see’s Centering Prayer in what Teresa wrote, and so did I the first time I read it.

If feels good not to be alone in this interpretation, especiallly with the company of Father Dubay.

Jim

Hi Jim -

Yes . . . but context is everything. St. Teresa was talking about a soul already in the midst of infused contemplation. Her advice was quite different when not in such a state (for those interested in re-hasing all of this, see post 115 and beyond).

Until God brings us to the point that “puffing on the candle” is our most appropriate response, we should continue to actively apply our minds in prayer via meditation, vocal prayers etc. This is the teaching of the Saints.

I might be wrong, but I think the issue of “timing” and our intuitive response to God’s guiding hand is what is at the heart of what Derek is grappling with in trying to reconcile Fr. Dubay and the Carmelite Saints with the teachings of Fr. Keating. In short, what comes first: the chicken or the egg?

Hope all is well with you . . .

Dave.

 

[DBT]

Also, I’ve been reading Practicing the Presence of God, by Brother Lawrence.

Everything that I’ve been reading so far is what is in taught by Father Keating on Centering Prayer, except that he does not use a prayer word to get him back on tract. Although, he does say, beginners should start by using a phrase or word, to help them stay focused. I’m not at home and don’t have the book to give you the exact wording.
Jim

Agreed . . . although I think Br. Lawrence’s intent was a bit more comprehensive than what Fr. Keating teaches with Centering Prayer. Br. Lawrence’s way is essentially that of “praying without ceasing” — 24/7, in a highly simplified mode of converse — a simple wordless gaze.

I think Fr. Keating would certainly relate to this; however, his approach just seems more structured and formalized to me (i.e. sit down for 20 minutes, close your eyes, etc.) – almost like a way of conducting oneself in mental prayer (in Carmelite terms). Br. Lawrence’s teaching, on the other hand, is a way to live one’s entire life.

Dave.

Note to those not familiar with Brother Lawrence: An important teaching of his is the more frequently and habitually we practice “active recollection,” the more readily God will come to us in “passive recollection” (contemplation). In short, active recollection is how one “fills” oneself with Christ to the point that the Holy Spirit simply takes over in prayer.

This transition from active to passive is what St. Teresa is talking about with the “puffing on the candle” quote Jim provided earlier . . .

 

[InLight247]

Agreed . . . although I think Br. Lawrence’s intent was a bit more comprehensive than what Fr. Keating teaches with Centering Prayer. Br. Lawrence’s way is essentially that of “praying without ceasing” — 24/7, in a highly simplified mode of converse — a simple wordless gaze.

I think Fr. Keating would certainly relate to this; however, his approach just seems more structured and formalized to me (i.e. sit down for 20 minutes, close your eyes, etc.) – almost like a way of conducting oneself in mental prayer (in Carmelite terms). Br. Lawrence’s teaching, on the other hand, is a way to live one’s entire life.

Dave.

Well said, completely agree.
Hope all is well with you. Your young son is often in my prayers.

 

[DBT]

Your young son is often in my prayers.

Thank you!

And your family is in mine as well.

 

[deekod1967]

What confuses me about Fr. Keating’s approach is that when one becomes aware of any thought during centering prayer, then one is to return to the silent repetition of a sacred word - but isnt this silent repitition of a sacred word also a thought too?

Doesnt this silent repitition of a sacred word constitute meditation? i.e it strikes me that Fr. Keating’s centering prayer is actually meditation at a simple level (something which I find very appealing).

If so, it would appear there is commonality between Fr. Keating and Fr. Dubay’s approaches to prayer.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Dave,
from what I’m getting from Br. Lawrence is that the awareness of God’s presence outside of quiet prayer, is the product of contemplative prayer.

Keating speaks of this Open Mind Open Heart.

From my own experience, the more I pray, the more I’m conscience of God’s presence throughout the day.

In the Way of the Pilgrim, when the author is taught the Jesus Prayer. He at first doesn’t understand the reason for being told to say the prayer, 5000 times per day on his Rosary beads.
Eventually what he discovers is that the prayer becomes part of his entire life. The prayer becomes part of himself and hence, his awareness of God’s presence is constant.
Pray without ceasing, was what the author was trying to understand, and it was finally answered.

So it is with Centering Prayer. Eventually, the sacred prayer word, becomes a constant prayer, throughout the day. In addition, as the presence of God becomes more and more evident in the moment of prayer, so too does awareness of His presence become evident throughout the day. As soon as my sacred prayer word comes to mind, which is almost constant in between regular thoughts of carrying out my days activities, I feel his presence as if I were back during the moment of resting in his embrace during Centering Prayer.

The 20 min. recommendation Fr Keating gives for that period of prayer, is no different than our Rule of Life which mandates that we spend a minimum of one half hour in mental prayer. That half hour doesn’t include, our morning and evening prayers.

So, when you think about it a little, it’s really not so regimented.

In Carmel
Jim

 

[DBT]

Dave,
from what I’m getting from Br. Lawrence is that the awareness of God’s presence outside of quiet prayer, is the product of contemplative prayer.

Keating speaks of this Open Mind Open Heart.

From my own experience, the more I pray, the more I’m conscience of God’s presence throughout the day.

In the Way of the Pilgrim, when the author is taught the Jesus Prayer. He at first doesn’t understand the reason for being told to say the prayer, 5000 times per day on his Rosary beads.
Eventually what he discovers is that the prayer becomes part of his entire life. The prayer becomes part of himself and hence, his awareness of God’s presence is constant.
Pray without ceasing, was what the author was trying to understand, and it was finally answered.

So it is with Centering Prayer. Eventually, the sacred prayer word, becomes a constant prayer, throughout the day. In addition, as the presence of God becomes more and more evident in the moment of prayer, so too does awareness of His presence become evident throughout the day. As soon as my sacred prayer word comes to mind, which is almost constant in between regular thoughts of carrying out my days activities, I feel his presence as if I were back during the moment of resting in his embrace during Centering Prayer.

The 20 min. recommendation Fr Keating gives for that period of prayer, is no different than our Rule of Life which mandates that we spend a minimum of one half hour in mental prayer. That half hour doesn’t include, our morning and evening prayers.

So, when you think about it a little, it’s really not so regimented.

In Carmel
Jim

Hi Jim -

If this is your understanding, I agree completely!

I mentioned along time ago in this thread, my primary exposure to Fr. Keating is “Intimacy with God.” For my tastes, that particular book was way to focused on recollection in the passive sense . . . little or nothing was said about active recollection: the types of things you describe. I’ve always felt that book, by itself, provides an incomplete picture of the contemplative life.

It’s good to see that, when looking at his works as a whole, he has a much more comprehensive viewpoint.

Dave.

 

[DBT]

What confuses me about Fr. Keating’s approach is that when one becomes aware of any thought during centering prayer, then one is to return to the silent repetition of a sacred word - but isnt this silent repitition of a sacred word also a thought too?

Hi Derek -

In a word, the answer to your question is yes; I’ll try and explain it this way . . .

As we begin prayer, we are to actively apply our minds as you have described in your posts. Oftentimes, these efforts lead to recollection . . . which is both active and passive.

Recollection, as it becomes more passive, is such a hard thing to describe. St. Teresa describes it as the feeling that comes upon us in prayer that’s like a turtle slowly drawing his head back into his shell . . . you just feel like slowing down and becoming more “simple” in our response to God.

Refer back to what Fr. Dubay says in “Fire Within” about the Prayer of Quiet (4th mansion). This is the type of prayer most applicable, IMHO, to the teaching of Fr. Keating. This prayer is infused contemplation . . . but it is incomplete: God’s efforts and our efforts are intertwined, God has not yet taken over completely.

Our efforts in the Prayer of Quiet, in a nutshell, are our thoughts — which, when you get right down to it are an impediment to deeper union. Our appropriate response as recollection turns to the Prayer of Quiet is to resist to urge to “do something” (i.e. continue with our wordy meditation): we simply turn away from our thoughts or ignore them. If that doesn’t work, we simplify our thoughts into a single word that symbolizes our “intent” to be with God as He is: in silence and solitude.

After this, take a look at Fr. Dubay’s description of the 5th Mansion, where the Prayer of Union is discussed. This prayer is what happens when the Prayer of Quiet becomes deeper; God takes over completely and union with Him is complete. Our faculties (will, intellect and memory) have been suspended; we are not aware of our thoughts . . . or even our very selves. It is here that God infuses His gifts and graces into us . . . challenging us to be evermore diligent in the practice of virtue in all aspects of our lives.

Sorry to be so rushed on this . . . but I’m heading out of town on a business trip for the next week or so. Please take a look at what Fr. Dubay says in the 4th and 5th mansions . . . hopefully it will shed some light.

Dave.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

What confuses me about Fr. Keating’s approach is that when one becomes aware of any thought during centering prayer, then one is to return to the silent repetition of a sacred word - but isnt this silent repitition of a sacred word also a thought too?

Doesnt this silent repitition of a sacred word constitute meditation? i.e it strikes me that Fr. Keating’s centering prayer is actually meditation at a simple level (something which I find very appealing).

If so, it would appear there is commonality between Fr. Keating and Fr. Dubay’s approaches to prayer.

deekod,
the sacred prayer word can be looked at as a compass needle. It merely points us back to our intention, when we become aware that we’ve wondered off on some thought not related to prayer. Our intention is merely, being in the presence of Christ, with open hearts and open minds.

Jim

 

[deekod1967]

Many thanks to you both for your responses once again, they mean a lot to me.

 

[Charleston]

Peace everyone,

Whew, it took me a couple of days to make it through all six pages of this rich topic but I wanted to have a grasp of what had been discussed before I managed to put my elitist foot in my mouth. :tiphat:

I have a question regarding The Cloud of Unknowing. It’s about chapter 40. Since I’ve read modern CP was derived at least in part from the Cloud, I’d like to get the (name removed by moderator)ut of some of its practitioners.

Chapter 40: DO thou, on the same manner, fill thy spirit with the ghostly bemeaning of this word “sin,” and without any special beholding unto any kind of sin, whether it be venial or deadly: Pride, Wrath, or Envy, Covetyse, Sloth, Gluttony, or Lechery. What recks it in contemplatives, what sin that it be, or how muckle a sin that it be? For all sins them thinketh—I mean for the time of this work—alike great in themselves, when the least sin departeth them from God, and letteth them of their ghostly peace.

**And feel sin a lump, thou wottest never what, but none other thing than thyself. **And cry then ghostly ever upon one: a **Sin, sin, sin! Out, out, out!” **This ghostly cry is better learned of God by the proof, than of any man by word. For it is best when it is in pure spirit, without special thought or any pronouncing of word; unless it be any seldom time, when for abundance of spirit it bursteth up into word, so that the body and the soul be both filled with sorrow and cumbering of sin.

On the same manner shalt thou do with this little word “God.” Fill thy spirit with the ghostly bemeaning of it without any special beholding to any of His works—whether they be good, better, or best of all—bodily or ghostly, or to any virtue that may be wrought in man’s soul by any grace; not looking after whether it be meekness or charity, patience or abstinence, hope, faith, or soberness, chastity or wilful poverty. What recks this in contemplatives? For all virtues they find and feel in God; for in Him is all both by cause and by being. For they think that an they had God they had all good, and therefore they covet nothing with special beholding, but only good God. Do thou on the same manner as far forth as thou mayest by grace: and mean God all, and all God, so that nought work in thy wit and in thy will, but only God.

And because that ever the whiles thou livest in this wretched life, thee behoveth always feel in some part this foul stinking lump of sin, as it were oned and congealed with the substance of thy being, therefore shalt thou changeably mean these two words—sin and God. With this general knowing, that an thou haddest God, then shouldest thou lack sin: and mightest thou lack sin, then shouldest thou have God.

(apologies for the old English translation, but I’m just lifting from CCE).

My passion is the practice and study of monologic prayer. This chapter’s recommendations are very interesting to me–*Sin-sin-sin-Out-out-out *(which I’ve also seen translated as Sin-sin-sin-Help-help-help). In addition to the constant remembrance and focusing on our Lord by using the word, God, here we have an exultation for a dual awareness to identify and cast out sin.

This is extremely unique and I’m don’t remember stumbling on it in other writings of monologic prayer in either the Latin or Orthodox Fathers. For a brief time I thought there might be a parallel with the Orthodox practice of the Jesus Prayer and its related writings of guarding the heart. However, I had the good fortune to discuss this with an Orthodox monastic and he assured me that I was mistaken. This type of dual focus is not a part of the practice of the Jesus Prayer.

I was wondering if Father Keating or Fr. Pennington might have addressed this particular chapter of the Cloud in their talks or writings?

Best

 

[deekod1967]

I am very grateful for this thread, but still confused somewhat, here is my question in a nutshell -

Does the Church approve of the use of a “mantra” or “sacred word” during prayer, so as to slow down the mind and open our hearts to contemplation (should God will it)?

Thanks again to all for this thread.

 

[InLight247]

Whatever approach we use in seeking of God, we all have the same purpose - to be in His presence and to have intimacy with Him.

Here is my own experience to share with you:

I find the most effective way of practicing the presence of God is to make my daily spiritual walk a repeated journey of falling in love with Jesus.

Just like two people in love cannot have enough of each other, with this in-love feeling at heart, I cannot wait to be with my Lord. Thus the practice of the presence of God is automated and compelled by a desire instead of an effort. Just like when I first fell in love when I was young, I could not help think of my love as much as I can.

Prayers of thanksgiving, songs of praise, Bible reading, spiritual reading, meditations, and devotionals can all enkindle the in-love feeling in my heart.

God bless!

 

[Charleston]

deekod wrote: Does the Church approve of the use of a “mantra” or “sacred word” during prayer, so as to slow down the mind and open our hearts to contemplation (should God will it)?

A very controversial question that I’m not sure has been definitely answered in the six pages of reading on this thread. It’s so heated a discussion that Centering Payer isn’t even allowed on the largest OCDS Yahoo Forum.

Here’s what I know. The terms mantra and sacred word are contemporary and have only been in use since the 1970’s from the work of Fr. Keating’s approach and Fr. John Main’s school of Christian Meditation.

However, repetitive monologic prayers, that is short repeated prayers are an ancient practice in both Latin and Orthodox traditions. As early as around the 3rd and 4th centuries desert monastics where practicing arrow prayers. There were very short, often spontaneous, fee form prayers shot so-to-speak into the heart of God. These were continually practiced through out the day and would be in accord with what has been discussed recently about Br. Lawrence’s writings. John Cassian is often credited with bringing this form of prayer to the Latin Church in the late 4th century with his famous arrow prayer from the beginning of psalm 69/70, *O, God come to my assistance-O, Lord make haste to help me. *.

The repetitive invocation of the Holy Name of Jesus as part of these arrow prayers shows up and begins the formal practice of the Jesus Prayer around the late 5th or 6th centuries–although some would argue that its use goes back to apostolic times. Orthodox Hesychasm formalizes the practice of the Jesus Prayer into a very structured practice while the Latin usage tends to be more free flowing. (see *“The Name of Jesus: The Names of Jesus Used by Early Christians-The Development of the 'Jesus Prayer,” *by Irene hausherr, Cistercian Publications, Inc., 1978 available at-- cistercianpublications.org/Search.aspx?q=0-87907-944-4

What is interesting in the Latin tradition are various apparitions that seem to encourage the use of monologic prayer. My favorite is to St. Gertrude around the 13th century in which a vision of Our Lord encouraged the prayer, Oh sacred heart of Jesus, I place my trust in thee.

Deekod, there is no easy answer to your question of what the Church approves regarding the modern usage of mantras and sacred words. Rome felt so concerned over the eastern oriental influences creeping into the Church that they issued the previously cited letter to the world’s bishops regarding inappropriate aspects of Christian Meditation. ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFMED.HTM

My own study of the development of monologic prayers as given me the impression that the early desert Fathers and western monastics employed arrow prayers and the Holy Name of Jesus as prayers. If the mind was quieted and the heart opened, fine, but the primary focus was to be in constant prayer. I believe one is on solid ground as long as this is the focus rather than aiming for some specific state of awareness or level of contemplation.

The author of the Cloud recommends the use of a single syllable word that comes from the depths of our *heart *to the Lord for aid:

Ch 38: Yes even, if it is a very sinful soul, who is as it were an enemy of God. If he through grace were to cry such a short syllable in the height, depth, length, and breadth of his spirit, he would always be heard because of this anguished cry, and be helped by God.

An example will show this. If you were to hear your deadly enemy in terror cry out from the depth of his being this little word ‘Fire!’ or ‘Help!’, you without reckoning he was your enemy, our of sheer pity aroused by his despairing cry would rise up, even on a mid-winter night and help him put out his fire, or quieten and ease his distress…"

FWIW, the Orthodox monastic which I conversed with about prayer was a former Zen practitioner. He was adamant that the Jesus Prayer was not a mantra in the classic eastern oriental sense, that is was a PRAYER completely contained in itself, and not a technique inducing any of the traditional oriental states of awareness. This is the position also held by the well known author, Bishop Kallistos Ware, himself a trained monk of Athos. (tape series: The Invocation of the Holy Name: A Prayer for All Seasons, Oakwood publications 1997).

Best, :tiphat:

 

[deekod1967]

Many thanks again for another very informative post, I am learning so much from this thread.

In light of your post I would make a slight amendment to my question as follows:

Does the Church approve of a silent meditative use of a “mantra” or “sacred word” during prayer, so as to slow down the mind and open our hearts to contemplation (should God will it)?

ANy further comments would be very much appreciated.

 

[buzzcut]

Does the Church approve of a silent meditative use of a “mantra” or “sacred word” during prayer, so as to slow down the mind and open our hearts to contemplation (should God will it)?

Haven’t posted on Catholic Answers for a while. Hello everyone. Back to a familiar topic.

There was a LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON SOME ASPECTS OF CHRISTIAN MEDITATION issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (Joseph Card. Ratzinger, Prefect) on October 15, 1989. It is more of a cautionary note than anything else. See here: ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFMED.HTM

 

[Charleston]

Does the Church approve of a silent meditative use of a “mantra” or “sacred word” during prayer, so as to slow down the mind and open our hearts to contemplation (should God will it)?

I don’t think anyone is going to do better than give you a yes-and-no response, Derek.

At risk of being accused of taking up too much bandwidth the best answer I can give is **NO **if the mantra and sacred word are used to produce a mental state of the condemned 17th century heresy of Quietism (newadvent.org/cathen/12608c.htm) or are also used in ways cautioned against in paragraph 12 of the CDF’s letter to the Bishops cited by Buzzcut and others:

1. With the present diffusion of eastern methods of meditation in the Christian world and in ecclesial communities, we find ourselves faced with a pointed renewal of an attempt, which is not free from dangers and errors, “**to fuse Christian meditation with that which is non-Christian.” **Proposals in this direction are numerous and radical to a greater or lesser extent. Some use eastern methods solely as a psycho-physical preparation for a truly Christian contemplation; others go further and, **using different techniques, try to generate spiritual experiences similar to those described in the writings of certain Catholic mystics.**13 Still others do not hesitate to place that absolute without image or concepts, which is proper to Buddhist theory, 14 on the same level as the majesty of God revealed in Christ, which towers above finite reality. To this end, they make use of a “negative theology,” which transcends every affirmation seeking to express what God is, and denies that the things of this world can offer traces of the infinity of God. Thus they propose abandoning not only meditation on the salvific works accomplished in history by the God of the Old and New Covenant, but also the very idea of the One and Triune God, who is Love, in favor of an immersion "in the indeterminate abyss of the divinity."15 These and similar proposals to harmonize Christian meditation with eastern techniques need to have their contents and methods ever subjected to a thorough-going examination so as to avoid the danger of falling into syncretism./ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFMED.HTM

…and YES if the mantra and sacred word are used in accord with the following paragraphs of the same letter:

1. The seeking of God through prayer has to be preceded and accompanied by an ascetical struggle and a purification from one’s own sins and errors, since Jesus has said that only “the pure of heart shall see God” (Mt 5:8). The Gospel aims above all at a moral purification from the lack of truth and love and, on a deeper level, from all the selfish instincts which impede man from recognizing and accepting the will of God in its purity. The passions are not negative in themselves (as the Stoics and Neoplatonists thought), but their tendency is to selfishness. It is from this that the Christian has to free himself in order to arrive at that state of positive freedom which in classical Christian times was called “apatheia,” in the Middle Ages “Impassibilitas” and in the Ignatian Spiritual Exercises "indiferencia."19

This is impossible without a radical self-denial, as can also be seen in St. Paul who openly uses the word “mortification” (of sinful tendencies).20 Only this self-denial renders man free to carry out the will of God and to share in the freedom of the Holy Spirit.

1. The love of God, the sole object of Christian contemplation, is a reality which cannot be “mastered” by any method or technique. On the contrary, we must always have our sights fixed on Jesus Christ, in whom God’s love went to the cross for us and there assumed even the condition of estrangement from the Father (cf. Mk 13:34). **We therefore should allow God to decide the way he wishes to have us participate in his love. **But we can never, in any way, seek to place ourselves on the same level as the object of our contemplation. the free love of God; not even when, through the mercy of God the Father and the Holy Spirit sent into our hearts, we receive in Christ the gracious gift of a sensible reflection of that divine love and we feel drawn by the truth and beauty and goodness of the Lord.

I would recommend printing up and reading the whole letter from the CDF and then going over it with your priest/spiritual director if you still have concerns.

Best, :tiphat:

 

[deekod1967]

Thank you everyone for your posts, you seemed to have hit the nail on the head with your post Charleston, thank you. No black or white answer here - and with hindsight a bit naive of me to ask for a straight answer on this topic! But I will offer my take on this topic, and I would appreciate anyone’s thoughts on this…

**When using the Keating & Pennington approaches to “Centering Prayer” our will must be “in detachment” from our thoughts - but not devoid of them. **

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Many thanks again for another very informative post, I am learning so much from this thread.

In light of your post I would make a slight amendment to my question as follows:

Does the Church approve of a silent meditative use of a “mantra” or “sacred word” during prayer, so as to slow down the mind and open our hearts to contemplation (should God will it)?

ANy further comments would be very much appreciated.

Don’t confuse “sacred word,” that is used in Centering Prayer, with a “Mantra,” which is used in Eastern Religion.

The sacred prayer word in Centering Prayer, is not necessarily a “word,” but a phrase. “For the sake of His Sorrowful Passion,” from the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, could be used as a “sacred prayer word.”

Also, just as in the Chaplet, the words are not repeated to place us into some sort of trance, but rather to direct the focus of our intention, on the presence of God.

Jim

 

[DBT]

I was wondering if Father Keating or Fr. Pennington might have addressed this particular chapter of the Cloud in their talks or writings?

Hi Charleston . . . wonderful posts!

I’m not sure if I can answer your question since I’m only familiar with a small part of their writings - but I’ll give it a shot

I’ve often thought the passage of the Cloud you reference was one of the places Fathers Keating/Pennington came up with their concept of the sacred word. Rightly or wrongly, I interpret that quote as the author of the Cloud’s advice on how to manage mental distractions when brought to infused contemplation - specifically the Prayer of Quiet in St. Teresa’s terminology. My take on what the author of the Cloud is saying is that if our thoughts are drawn to self in this prayer - especially our sinful nature - we simply use the word “sin” to represent the meaning behind those thoughts.

What I think the author of the Cloud is trying to convey is that in the initial stages of infused contemplation we should strive to be simple in our response to God rather than allow a multiplicity of words to overwhelm and potenitally drown out the grace He is attempting to give. This would seem to be consistent with the Centering Prayer concept of the sacred word. It also seems similar to what St. Teresa says about “gently puffing on a candle” discussed in several posts in this thread.

Likewise, if we find our thoughts drawn to God - the use of a word like “God” or “love” would symbolize the meaning behind our mental wanderings in a very simplistic way; thereby bringing the soul back to a deeper sense of God’s presence - perhaps even to the Prayer of Union itself, God willing.

While I tend to see these concepts as most applicable when the soul has been brought to infused contemplation, I suppose they could also apply to all other times as well for highly recollected souls — in the manner of a Brother Lawrence. I think JimR might have talked about this in one of his recent posts . . .

My 2 cents . . . for what it’s worth

Dave.