Contraception and the modern woman

[Timbothefiveth]

How do I justify? rather than how do you, which I meant in the sense, how does one?
I don’t think children are an inconvinience, far from it. My friends feel this way.

This is an issue, I believe, where you have to either argue the sometimes dangerous side-effects of ABC, or they have to be religious. In my opinion, there are at least 2 justifications for it. The first is that you can have a career and children at the same time, so there concern is a moot point. The second is that even if you couldn’t, that’s still no justification for sinning. You could abstain instead of sinning or, if you can’t do that, and you have to choose a better career or God, well, guess which one will make you happier and is more important? You’ll probably quit that career in 20-30 years at most, but God is with you for eternity, and eternity is a lot of time.

Matthew 18:1-5

1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2And He called a child to Himself and set him before them,

3and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

4"Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5"And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me

I don’t know if that includes having children or not.

 

[Harrison]

NFP is nearly as effective as the contraceptive pill. Completely possible for a faithful woman to have a demanding career without using ABC. If God is calling a woman to say be a doctor, that’s when NFP comes in.

I fail to see how this situation is any different than the situation originally posted. Unless there is a just reason (physical, emotional or economic) to delay pregnancy, NFP cannot be lawfully used. Just because a woman is a doctor does not allow her to use NFP. I would say that a doctor would be a great candidate for being a mother anyways. They have the money, they are (or at least should be) in shape, and they are apparently emotionally fit enough to be a doctor (can be cool under stress, etc.).

 

[kage_ar]

I fail to see how this situation is any different than the situation originally posted. Unless there is a just reason (physical, emotional or economic) to delay pregnancy, NFP cannot be lawfully used. Just because a woman is a doctor does not allow her to use NFP. I would say that a doctor would be a great candidate for being a mother anyways. They have the money, they are (or at least should be) in shape, and they are apparently emotionally fit enough to be a doctor (can be cool under stress, etc.).

Your are adding to what the Church teaches. She says “just reason” period. No other qualifiers. The couple and their priest decide what is a just reason.

 

[r4j]

Brooklyn - did you go though the same cathechesis as me? You sound just like me.
apricot - I like how Fr. Corapi explains the Church’s teaching. He says the reason ABC is intrinsically evil is because at the level of the subconcious, it registers “rejection”. And from the one you love the most (your spouse) and the one who is supposed to love you the most. When you got married, you vowed ‘everything I am and everything I have is yours and vice versa.’ But then when the two come together you say ‘this much of me you can have but I give you no entrance in the most innermost sanctuary, where God creates life.’ And he says, ‘on the level of the conscious, you may not recognize it, but in the subconscious it registers rejection. And a human being can only take so much rejection.’
So he says it’s no surprise to him and it may be coincidence that the percentage of couple engaging in ABC is about equal to the percentage of couples who get divorced.
But when you step outside God’s wisdom, you step outside the light and into the darkness. And the darkness has no power to give life. And you can’t see in the darkness and that goes a long way towards explaining why brilliant people just can’t see it (these are his words).
2nd thing he says - he’s a true feminist, but he doesn’t sell women a bill of goods telling them they have to be something other than what their being calls them to be.
He does talk in his Sanctity of Marriage CD about not having children because you want to travel, etc. You might want to listen to it.

 

[tbcrawford]

How do you justify the church’s position on ABC when I see so many of my friends and aquaintances in positions they wouldn’t be in if it weren’t for contraception. Thinking in particular of some of my friends in useful, productive careers, that make having a child an inconvinience.

Hello apricot are these friends catholics? if so then they know what they are doing is wrong and it is their personal responsibility and on their conscience.If they are not catholic they wont have the same values as us.Are they married? By the way there is also “abstinence from sex”.I myself held down a succesful career teaching and had 5 birth children and 2 foster children.Gave up my career 18 mnths ago to care for my 2 x disabled sisters and mum came to live with us 15mnths ago.I am grandmother to 2 but i would still have another child if it was Gods will.
God bless

 

[tbcrawford]

Jennifer what a wonderful example of motherhood you are what a lovely family God bless you all

 

[Holly3278]

How do you justify the church’s position on ABC when I see so many of my friends and aquaintances in positions they wouldn’t be in if it weren’t for contraception. Thinking in particular of some of my friends in useful, productive careers, that make having a child an inconvinience.

That’s the thing, children aren’t meant to be “inconveniences”. Children are a gift from God.

Now, one thing that I don’t fully understand is this. I am a mentally disabled woman. My boyfriend also has mental problems. In particular he has severe depression and possibly something else that isn’t diagnosed yet. If we were to have children (once married of course), our children would inherit the mental disorders that either him or I have. Plus, I know that I would have an extremely difficult time taking care of children to the point that the children might not even be safe when I am supervising them. I wouldn’t know how to take care of a child and I definitely don’t want to be responsible for a child growing up to have severe mental disorders like I have. So, therefore, I wonder, would it be permissible for my husband and I to use natural family planning throughout our marriage or do we not have a serious enough reason to do so?

 

[tbcrawford]

That’s the thing, children aren’t meant to be “inconveniences”. Children are a gift from God.

Now, one thing that I don’t fully understand is this. I am a mentally disabled woman. My boyfriend also has mental problems. In particular he has severe depression and possibly something else that isn’t diagnosed yet. If we were to have children (once married of course), our children would inherit the mental disorders that either him or I have. Plus, I know that I would have an extremely difficult time taking care of children to the point that the children might not even be safe when I am supervising them. I wouldn’t know how to take care of a child and I definitely don’t want to be responsible for a child growing up to have severe mental disorders like I have. So, therefore, I wonder, would it be permissible for my husband and I to use natural family planning throughout our marriage or do we not have a serious enough reason to do so?

Hi Holly i am only a lay person but in my humble opinion you would probably have good reasons for NFP but the best person to speak to is always your priest.
God bless

 

[Brendan]

Sorry. I’m a bit tired right now, so not making much sense, I think.
Let’s give you an example of my friend E. She has a very admirable position helping people to get heathier and back to work after illness-but in order to do this, she has to sin, by using contraception.

So who exactly is requiring her to use ABC, her employer?? That’s illegal here in the states and I imagine in the UK too.

No, she is under no obligation to take ABC. If she is single, the answer is pretty simple. Don’t have sex. It’s the all natural, 100% effective birth control.

If she is married, and her job is legitimately more important than having children right now, use NFP.

 

[Holly3278]

Hi Holly i am only a lay person but in my humble opinion you would probably have good reasons for NFP but the best person to speak to is always your priest.
God bless

I agree that it is probably best for me to ask my priest. I might bring this up to him sometime.

 

[flyingfish]

I fail to see how this situation is any different than the situation originally posted. Unless there is a just reason (physical, emotional or economic) to delay pregnancy, NFP cannot be lawfully used. Just because a woman is a doctor does not allow her to use NFP. I would say that a doctor would be a great candidate for being a mother anyways. They have the money, they are (or at least should be) in shape, and they are apparently emotionally fit enough to be a doctor (can be cool under stress, etc.).

The Church has never, ever said the kind of thing you are saying.

What is or isn’t a just reason is up to the couple to prayerfully decide. Being able to keep up with a demanding career may well be a just reason to use NFP for one couple, but not another. It is different for every couple.

 

[LilyM]

Golly, to think of all those parents who never knew that being parents caused them to be unuseful or unproductive.

Amen! My ‘unproductive’ mother somehow managed a full-time career as a doctor while raising five children (doing very well with at least four of us )

What would happen to the workforce is precisely nothing. Those women who want to work are going to work, kids or no kids. My mother isn’t a superhero, women who raise 11 or 12 kids are superheroes. She just wanted a career and a large family and made them both happen

 

[Harrison]

Your are adding to what the Church teaches. She says “just reason” period. No other qualifiers. The couple and their priest decide what is a just reason.

Humanae Vitae:

1. With regard to **physical, economic, psychological and social **conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time.
2. If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained

I really don’t think I am adding to what the Church teaches.

 

[Harrison]

The Church has never, ever said the kind of thing you are saying.

What is or isn’t a just reason is up to the couple to prayerfully decide. Being able to keep up with a demanding career may well be a just reason to use NFP for one couple, but not another. It is different for every couple.

Being able to keep up with a demanding career may be a just reason in certain circumstances. But my previous statement still stands. Just because a woman is a doctor does not allow her to use NFP. There has to be a just reason.

 

[kage_ar]

I really don’t think I am adding to what the Church teaches.

Saying that being a doctor is not good enough reason to use NFP seems to be a bit of addtion to what he Church says.

 

[Harrison]

Saying that being a doctor is not good enough reason to use NFP seems to be a bit of addtion to what he Church says.

I don’t believe that is an addition.

The Church gives us criteria and guidance to use when making the decision as to whether or not to use NFP to avoid pregnancy. There is an objective side to the decision to avoid pregnancy. As I quoted earlier, there are psychological, physical, economic and social aspects that should be taken into account in the decision.

I said “Just because a woman is a doctor does not allow her to use NFP”. You could put any number of occupations in the place of ‘doctor’ and the sentence would still be true. There has to be a just reason. You have to ask the question “What part about being a doctor in my situation would be a just reason to use NFP to avoid pregnancy”.

I think many people have demanding careers that give them great health insurance, paid vacation, and allow them to work 8-5 and take the time off to have a child.

flyingfish posted a situation where they said NFP could be used. I rejected what they said because I did not see any just reason in their post, and I felt it needed to be clarified. I took what the Church says about NFP and applied it to this particular situation.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

That’s the thing, children aren’t meant to be “inconveniences”. Children are a gift from God.

Now, one thing that I don’t fully understand is this. I am a mentally disabled woman. My boyfriend also has mental problems. In particular he has severe depression and possibly something else that isn’t diagnosed yet. If we were to have children (once married of course), our children would inherit the mental disorders that either him or I have. Plus, I know that I would have an extremely difficult time taking care of children to the point that the children might not even be safe when I am supervising them. I wouldn’t know how to take care of a child and I definitely don’t want to be responsible for a child growing up to have severe mental disorders like I have. So, therefore, I wonder, would it be permissible for my husband and I to use natural family planning throughout our marriage or do we not have a serious enough reason to do so?

I AM NOT A THEOLOGIAN.

Just wanted to make that clear.

Marriage vows require you to accept the children God gives you.
If you are completely convinced that you shouldn’t have children, then God might not be calling you to marriage.

Just my two cents. But I would definitely spend lots of time praying and discerning and talking to a good orthodox priest before considering marriage.

May God bless you and draw you nearer to Him.

Love is Patient

 

[Holly3278]

I AM NOT A THEOLOGIAN.

Just wanted to make that clear.

Marriage vows require you to accept the children God gives you.
If you are completely convinced that you shouldn’t have children, then God might not be calling you to marriage.

Just my two cents. But I would definitely spend lots of time praying and discerning and talking to a good orthodox priest before considering marriage.

May God bless you and draw you nearer to Him.

Love is Patient

And what if I love someone?

 

[Brendan]

Saying that being a doctor is not good enough reason to use NFP seems to be a bit of addtion to what he Church says.

No, kage, it’s not really an addition.

The Church does not say that NFP is automatically allowed when one enters into medical practice.

Other factors, economic etc… whould have to be taken into account.

Now, if the couple prayerfully discerned that the necessariy time away from the practice to have children would put them in risk of not being able to pay back the med school loans. or that this person is the only doctor within a reasonable range and it would impose a significant difficulty for the community to recieve prompt treatment…then we are talking about just reasons.

But just because the person has an M.D or D.O and is in a med practice does not by itself.

 

[kage_ar]

No, kage, it’s not really an addition.

The Church does not say that NFP is automatically allowed when one enters into medical practice.

Other factors, economic etc… whould have to be taken into account.

Now, if the couple prayerfully discerned that the necessariy time away from the practice to have children would put them in risk of not being able to pay back the med school loans. or that this person is the only doctor within a reasonable range and it would impose a significant difficulty for the community to recieve prompt treatment…then we are talking about just reasons.

But just because the person has an M.D or D.O and is in a med practice does not by itself.

What came off as presumptious is to say that having an MD or DO automatically disallows NFP. The poster seemed to be sitting himself up as the authority on what counts and does not count as a just reason.

If that was not his intent, then, I apologize for misunderstanding.