Contraception and the modern woman

[flyingfish]

Being able to keep up with a demanding career may be a just reason in certain circumstances. But my previous statement still stands. Just because a woman is a doctor does not allow her to use NFP. There has to be a just reason.

I didn’t express myself clearly enough. I meant to say that for some women, it would be emotionally and mentally too difficult to be a doctor and a mother to say 5 children at the same time.

There may be a particular women to whom God gave talents and wants to become a doctor, and she may be emotionally unable to keep up with many children and her profession.

In such a case I think she would have a just reason to use NFP.

It is a different situation if a woman who is a doctor feels she can handle being a doctor and having a large family at the same time.

 

[Harrison]

What came off as presumptious is to say that having an MD or DO automatically disallows NFP. The poster seemed to be sitting himself up as the authority on what counts and does not count as a just reason.

If that was not his intent, then, I apologize for misunderstanding.

Being a doctor does not automatically disallow someone from using NFP to avoid pregnancy, but neither does being a doctor automatically allow them to use it either, as Brendan has explained. I was simply saying that there have to be just reasons to use NFP, and simply being a doctor doesn’t cut it in our hypothetical scenario. Circumstances are the key to just reasons, otherwise the Church would just make blanket statements on certain occupations and be done with it.

My intent was simply to examine the situation in front of me and make a judgment based on what the Church teaches.

 

[apricot_yogurt]

R.e. my friends. The two that I am thinking of are both catholic, in the sense that they were Baptised and recieved Confession, Communion and Confirmation. One of them were married in the church. In fact I listened to her tell everyone and God, that she would welcome children. We all went through 14 years of catholic school, but our catecesis was so woeful that 99% of us lapsed-not so much a concious rejection of the church, but simply never been given the tools in the first place. So as catholics they SHOULD know these things, but don’t.

 

[slyboots]

Children change things for sure. But inconveniences? Nope.
I wish more moms could be moms first and not feel forced to work. But many many do. I did once my kids were in school. My daughter and daughter in law do. They are open to more children if God gives them to them. You just learn to work within the perameters you have.

Holly, if you are Catholic and love someone, you need to be open to the possibility of children if you marry them. Heck if you ar not Catholic…or if you are atheist or Buddhist/Mulim/Sikh etc or just plain human you better think about the possibility of pregnancy any time you have an intimate relationship with the opposite sex. Babies happen.

 

[mark_a]

How do you justify the church’s position on ABC when I see so many of my friends and aquaintances in positions they wouldn’t be in if it weren’t for contraception. Thinking in particular of some of my friends in useful, productive careers,

Why does sexual activity make these women more “useful” and “productive”? Could they not be just as useful and productive while living chastely?

that make having a child an inconvinience

And if her partner slips one past the goalie, isn’t an abortion the solution to this inconvenience?

Study hard with an eye toward truth and you will find the Catholic Church’s teachings about contraception to be supreme.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

How do you justify the church’s position on ABC when I see so many of my friends and aquaintances in positions they wouldn’t be in if it weren’t for contraception. Thinking in particular of some of my friends in useful, productive careers, that make having a child an inconvinience.

If having children is an inconvience for these women, than they and their husbands shouldn’t be having sex. It’s really that simple. If you are not ready for the blessing of children than you are not ready for the blessing of sex.

The only 100% fool-proof method for not having children is to not have sex. I know of children born despite every form of birth control their parents were using. Thankfully, as soon as they got pregnant, these couples accepted the baby and went on to happily add to their families.

There is no person, in any career, who is indespensible. If one of those married women get pregnant and they (or their husband) quit work to stay home with their baby, the world would continue turning. The company would continue to function–and even a family business would quickly be replaced by another family business. The child they bring into the world though would be completely unique and could never be replaced by another person.

 

[Brendan]

There may be a particular women to whom God gave talents and wants to become a doctor, and she may be emotionally unable to keep up with many children and her profession.

In such a case I think she would have a just reason to use NFP. .

This is somewhat dangerous ice to tread on.

The reasons should be either objective, or subjective with the (name removed by moderator)ut from a competent spiritual advisor.

Saying that the time off required to care for the child would leave the couple without income or means to pay back loans is objective.

To say that the person is too emotionally unstable to care for children would also be objective. But such people generally do not get through med school.

To say that a person without psychological issues does not feel emotionally ready to care for children, THAT starts to become subjective.

God does provide what is lacking for those who seek him.

I certainly wasn’t ready when my first child arrived, and if you had asked me then about having 5 in 9 years…well I would have thought I certainly wasn’t up to THAT.

But God provides and that should factor into our equation. God cannot, (by defintion of being both omniscient and omnipotent) give us more than we can handle if we also look to Him to give us all that we need.

 

[puzzleannie]

Sorry. I’m a bit tired right now, so not making much sense, I think.
Let’s give you an example of my friend E. She has a very admirable position helping people to get heathier and back to work after illness-but in order to do this, she has to sin, by using contraception. So for her, not using conrtaception would be a bad thing. How does one even begin to explain the church’s position?

well I don’t know her job title or where she works, but you are saying her position is one that cannot be held by a woman with children. So I take that to mean that no man with children can attain this position either, only a woman who contracepts to avoid children. That is the actual logic of what you are saying, but I doubt that is what you intended to say.

What you are actually saying is that women with children can’t work, and that simply is not true, take a look around you.

What you are saying is that plenty of women use that as an excuse to deny God’s gift and throw it back in his face, and call it “caring”.

 

[flyingfish]

But God provides and that should factor into our equation. God cannot, (by defintion of being both omniscient and omnipotent) give us more than we can handle if we also look to Him to give us all that we need.

I don’t think this is true. God doesn’t work like that, because if he did there wouldn’t be people whose children die of starvation in their first few years of life, who end up murdering their children due to post-partum psychosis and things like that.

Plenty of people among the most poor are faithful and look to God (often the only place they have to look for help), and for many no help comes. Many die of malnutrition, of most basic illnesses for which cures exist, many children are sold into slavery.

I think God gave us our intellect and resources so that we can use them to take care of ourselves and each other.

 

[Candelora]

Contraception was born from the mind set of population control. Population control was born from the mind set of eugenics, the process of developing a human race with less disease, deformities and IQ’s of less than 135.

It is the human’s with IQ’s of 135 that market contraception as something other than its actual purpose and the best marketing strategy is to say, “It’s for the greater good.”

This is lying 101 straight from the father of lies. “Come as an angel of light and bring about a greater death, toll.”

Having children in abundance brings about a greater diversity of human persons which includes deformities, diseases, creative talents and extraordinary human characters of an innumerable amount. And this diversity in human culture, [through the grace of God] develops unconditional selfless love, rather than displaced selfishness that says, "I have to block the conception of a child in my womb because I do many great things for many people! I am a very loving and important person! Everybody loves me because of who I am! I however, do not have the time to love my own child…or be loved by my child…

We need to love as God loves and God loves us!
He loves us because He created us and He loves us because - We are His children.

 

[Kaninchen]

Contraception was born from the mind set of population control. Population control was born from the mind set of eugenics, the process of developing a human race with less disease, deformities and IQ’s of less than 135.

So, what you’re saying is that people use contraception because they’re brainwashed by naughty people rather than just because women don’t want to be continually pregnant and end up with a lot of children (because the natural family planning provided by high infant mortality has been taken away)?

 

[Reuben_J]

If having children is an inconvience for these women, than they and their husbands shouldn’t be having sex. It’s really that simple. If you are not ready for the blessing of children than you are not ready for the blessing of sex.

The only 100% fool-proof method for not having children is to not have sex. I know of children born despite every form of birth control their parents were using. Thankfully, as soon as they got pregnant, these couples accepted the baby and went on to happily add to their families.

There is no person, in any career, who is indespensible. If one of those married women get pregnant and they (or their husband) quit work to stay home with their baby, the world would continue turning. The company would continue to function–and even a family business would quickly be replaced by another family business. The child they bring into the world though would be completely unique and could never be replaced by another person.

Yes, yes and yes.

When we try to justify not wanting children because of career and convenience, materialism and relativism come to mind. When we do that we forget the message of the Lord and the deeds of the saints before us. Simplicity and poverty. We are unfocused and justify our action, which by the way is always valid. Who is to say that it is not except for the person or the woman, rather? It is essentially a choice. Which is more important in our life? Our heart is where our treasure is.

 

[Reuben_J]

So, what you’re saying is that people use contraception because they’re brainwashed by naughty people rather than just because women don’t want to be continually pregnant and end up with a lot of children (because the natural family planning provided by high infant mortality has been taken away)?

People use contraception because they don’t want to be continually pregnant and end up with lot of children. This is alright with some poeple. But for Catholics, it is not. I am not sure the purpose of this thread but if it is to address Catholics who practice birth control then it’s worthed discussing. I don’t know why it should include others especially for those who think birth control is right. It is not an issue for them.

But there are certain people and organizations who have personal interest in keeping the world population down. Those who produce the drugs for birth control certainly profitted by it.

 

[Kaninchen]

People use contraception because they don’t want to be continually pregnant and end up with lot of children. This is alright with some poeple. But for Catholics, it is not. I am not sure the purpose of this thread but if it is to address Catholics who practice birth control then it’s worthed discussing. I don’t know why it should include others especially for those who think birth control is right. It is not an issue for them.

But there are certain people and organizations who have personal interest in keeping the world population down. Those who produce the drugs for birth control certainly profitted by it.

Oh, I appreciate that, not being a Catholic, I’m not really the right person to discuss Catholic morality.

That wasn’t what I was doing, I was asking whether the poster believed that it was all part of some thought control by a naughty people conspiracy.

In all honesty, I think that line of argument is really something of a diversion. A market needs willing buyers as well as willing sellers and the willing buyers are not doing so because they’ve been brainwashed by naughty people but because they don’t want to be continually pregnant and have lots of children.

 

[edwest2]

Oh, I appreciate that, not being a Catholic, I’m not really the right person to discuss Catholic morality.

That wasn’t what I was doing, I was asking whether the poster believed that it was all part of some thought control by a naughty people conspiracy.

In all honesty, I think that line of argument is really something of a diversion. A market needs willing buyers as well as willing sellers and the willing buyers are not doing so because they’ve been brainwashed by naughty people but because they don’t want to be continually pregnant and have lots of children.

“continually pregnant”? That’s not even a rational statement. My parents had kids in the 1950s. The average number of kids was TWO. TWO.

And how do people become continually pregnant? By accident? Please. That was an extremist generalization.

Peace,
Ed

 

[kage_ar]

People use contraception because they don’t want to be continually pregnant and end up with lot of children. This is alright with some poeple. But for Catholics, it is not.

The laws against artificial contraception are binding on all human beings as these are God’s laws. The fact that only Catholics recognize these laws does not make them less binding on the rest of the planet. Those who are unaware have lessened cuplability for the sin.

 

[anode]

Humanae Vitae was the opening wedge in the separation of the vast majority of American Catholics from their church. The RCC always said that you’re either FOR us or you’re AGAINST us. Well, after HV, many Catholics decided to split. Gradually, of course, then less gradually. Less support, less attendance, and–importantly–less financial support. So-called Cafeteria Catholics, but not the stalwart faithful of yore, if they ever were. Not only here, but also abroad, in the trad Catholic countries, partic–surprise in the home of the Inquisition–Spain. ONnce a few scandals entered the scene, espec the pedophile scandal, which is ongoing, many others left. The immigration of Hispanics, legal and illegal, mask the declining number of those who really support the RCC.

The plight of those who try to adhere to the church’s teachings can be seen on the family sections of the forums. Too many children, no money, and complaining bitterly that their parish doesn’t help out. I suspect that the other Catholics in the parish don’t help bec they don’t support the church’s position and feel that those who end up with more children than they can handle don’t deserve any support. Not very nice, but there it is.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Oh, I appreciate that, not being a Catholic, I’m not really the right person to discuss Catholic morality.

That wasn’t what I was doing, I was asking whether the poster believed that it was all part of some thought control by a naughty people conspiracy.

In all honesty, I think that line of argument is really something of a diversion. A market needs willing buyers as well as willing sellers and the willing buyers are not doing so because they’ve been brainwashed by naughty people but because they don’t want to be continually pregnant and have lots of children.

Interesting, the “Naughty People Marketing Conspiracy Theory”.

Couples don’t use contraception just to avoid “continually pregnancy and lots of children” but because they want to have sex without getting pregnant. Many in our culture believe sex has little or no connection with pregnancy. Contraception helps make that possible.

I don’t know if “brainwashing” and “thought control” are the right terms. It’s more like some influential people encourage a lack of self control. It may have some connection with marketing. Advertisors often encourage both lust and greed, (which are usually found together.) They don’t just market contraception–they market innapropriate sexual behaviors and exploit human weaknesses to sell all kinds of stuff.

And some people buy it.

 

[Kaninchen]

“continually pregnant”? That’s not even a rational statement. My parents had kids in the 1950s. The average number of kids was TWO. TWO.

By any chance, ed, were you the last?

And how do people become continually pregnant? By accident? Please. That was an extremist generalization.

I reckon not but it would probably depend on one’s perspective.

I’m really not interested in talking about Catholic morality, it’s absolutely none of my business, I just questioned the idea that the uptake of contraception was the result of some conspiracy of naughty people.

 

[Kaninchen]

Interesting, the “Naughty People Marketing Conspiracy Theory”.

Couples don’t use contraception just to avoid “continually pregnancy and lots of children” but because they want to have sex without getting pregnant.

There may be a distinction there but it sounds like the prelude to a kind of ‘angels and pinheads’ conversation.

And some people buy it.

They’re certainly buying contraception.