Contraception in marriage...very special case

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May be, but, it is outside the normal means of salvation, is up to God and it is for those who are not able to be part of the Church through no fault of their own.

Big difference between being born into a false religion and never knowing about the Church and walking away because it is too hard to go without sex.
This troubles me deeply, because we agree again. 👍

But yes, your absolutely, 100% correct. There is a WORLD of difference between between being born Catholic and saying, “goodbye” and being born into a Muslim family in Saudi Arabia and never even hearing about Christianity.
 
Of course it can be an option. But, I (and my wife) want to lead “normal” life. If I had wanted to abstain from sex completely, I would have become a catholic priest
I would have hoped you would have a better reason to become a priest than you just wanted to abstain from sex. The Priesthood is a Sacrament just as Marriage is a Sacrament. God calls us to a Sacrament and we accept it and are bound to live a life toward honoring that vow. You took a vow to your wife. You are the Christ in the relationship. Your job is to sacrifice and to turn away from your selfishness. Seems like you don’t want to do that anymore. Is your wife only good for sex or is she more? Is she not your life companion who you wish to serve and protect . The way Christ serves and protects us? You want to focus on being more Christlike.

There are many women on this board with just as severe health issues as your wife. They choose to embrace this cross and work with using NFP or they abstain until such time as they will not be fertile. We all have crosses that we must bear. The desire for sex is not more powerful than our desire for other things that we must limit.
 
This troubles me deeply, because we agree again. 👍

But yes, your absolutely, 100% correct. There is a WORLD of difference between between being born Catholic and saying, “goodbye” and being born into a Muslim family in Saudi Arabia and never even hearing about Christianity.
Pretty soon we will be calling each other asking “what are you going to wear today” so we can match 😃
 
Confused, I feel for you. This is indeed a burden.

However, the Truth is the Truth. Artificial Contraception is always wrong, even if you have a really, really good reason.

Explore all of the version of NFP, and find one that you feel comfortable with, and use it very conservatively.

You know what you call people who use condoms to prevent pregnancy? Parents. If they fail when the woman is fertile…

The Church has made available a means for you to licitly share marital intimacy, even if you have to avoid conception for a long time. Used very conservatively, it can be close to 100% effective. Sure, you might be left with being intimate one or two times a month, but isn’t that better than forsaking the Church?
 
Christ requires men to lay down their lives for their wives.

This means if it is that dangerous for your wife to have a baby, then, you abstain until she hits menopause.

The alternative to complete abstainence is to use Natural Family Planning.

Anything else is mortal sin.
According to the Catholic Church, yes.

According to Jesus: you can’t be sure.

Lets say it in this way.

The Catechism says what is mortal sin. Vast majority of the mankind is, thus, in mortal sin.

Then, the same Catechism says that God would be the judge and probably save some non-Catholic souls, even some non-Christian souls. Thus, in some cases “Catholic mortal sin” will not be “mortal sin in the eyes of GOD”.

Accordingly, each mortal sin declared by the Catholic Catechism is potentially not a real mortal sin: God’s opinion is important.
 
The Scripture is very clear about those who know the Truth of the Church and walk away for their own selfish reasons.
Please, quote from the Bible the chapter describing a proper method of contraception.

My selfish reason is to preserve my wife’s life. Very selfish from me. Abstain totally from sex? Jesus ordered men to love their women, telling not to abstain from intimacy. I respect that. And want to protect my wife.
 
Confused, I feel for you. This is indeed a burden.

However, the Truth is the Truth. Artificial Contraception is always wrong, even if you have a really, really good reason.
Explore all of the version of NFP, and find one that you feel comfortable with, and use it very conservatively.

You know what you call people who use condoms to prevent pregnancy? Parents. If they fail when the woman is fertile…

The Church has made available a means for you to licitly share marital intimacy, even if you have to avoid conception for a long time. Used very conservatively, it can be close to 100% effective. Sure, you might be left with being intimate one or two times a month, but isn’t that better than forsaking the Church?
One thing I’ve already said.

The main reason for any kind of contraception is A WISH NOT TO GET BABY.
It is valid for both, natural and “artificial” contraception.

So, a couple practising natural contraception eagerly does not want to get baby. Their chances to get baby are 5%. But, they are correct, they obey Catechism.

A couple practising artificial contraception also **eagerly does not want to get baby./B] Their chances to get baby are 1%. But, they are not correct, they do not obey Catechism.

You have to obey God’s commandments written in the Bible- that’s the key**
 
This troubles me deeply, because we agree again. 👍

But yes, your absolutely, 100% correct. There is a WORLD of difference between between being born Catholic and saying, “goodbye” and being born into a Muslim family in Saudi Arabia and never even hearing about Christianity.
Do you also imply that an adult protestant is not familiar with existance of Catholic Church? That he cannot explore Catholic teaching?
Of course that protestants know a lot about Catholic Church. And they do not accept it. And many of them are much better Christians than majority of Catholics.

I live in a Catholic country.
Believe me, many of them, regularilly receiving communion, cannot be my friends: they are immoral too much for my taste.
 
Confused1111: Why don’t you send your question to the Apologists on this forum. They may know of a solution to your problem that the rest of us are unaware of.
 
Confused,
I think if I were in your position, I would be feeling much like you are. And it may be that you and your wife can not have a “normal” habit of marital relations - meaning, having relations as often as the average married couple. But knowing that artificial birth control has a failure rate, I’d be nervous about putting my trust in them either.

Have you ever looked into the Sympto-Thermal method of NFP? Specifically, the Couple to Couple League www.ccli.org ? I have an old copy of their home study book, and they talk about “Phase 3 Rules.” They talk about one very strict method of NFP, in which the couple only has relations in the last part (phase 3) of the woman’s cycle, and that this improves the effectiveness. Again, if I were in your position, I might look into this - use temperatures and mucus signs, and only after I was absolutely certain that I had ovulated, THEN have relations on those days. It might work out to only once or twice a month, or sometimes even going some months with no marital relations. But in my mind, something now and then would be better than nothing. So I wouldn’t have a normal AMOUNT of relations with my husband, but I could say that we still had a physical relationship. And it would be all done in a way that I could feel safe, body AND soul.

I also think that if this method still causes too much fear, then maybe you should revisit the idea of complete abstinence. My understanding is that this decision shouldn’t be taken lightly, and that you should seek the counsel of a good spiritual director on a decision like this. But keep in mind that your and your wife’s job to get each other to heaven is more important than your (very understandable) desire for a “normal marriage” in this life. So if it comes down to either abstinence or artificial birth control, it is the only logical option to choose the one that doesn’t risk your soul.

I’m sorry you have this dilemma - it is certainly a cross to bear. You’re in my prayers.
 
This matter is between you, your wife, and God. The three of you truly need to discuss this matter fully and sincerely and prayerfully and come to some agreement.
Neither the Catholic Church nor its hierarchy is God, nor is any other church or its hierarchy nor any priest God, nor are the neighbor’s opinions God, nor is anyone nor anything else God, but God.
There are things in life that come to you to challenge you to reach out to God on your own and figure out for yourself exactly what it is that you do believe beyond what everybody else told you to believe in life. This is one of them.
 
Please, quote from the Bible the chapter describing a proper method of contraception.
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9107chap.asp

WHAT DOES the Bible say about contraception? “Nothing!” reply many today–including some Catholic theologians and biblical scholars. Yet traditional manuals of moral theology cite Genesis 38:6-10 as an argument against contraception. Does this passage have anything to offer on the question? Let’s look at the text:

"Judah got a wife named Tamar for his firstborn, Er. But Er, Judah’s firstborn, greatly offended the Lord, so the Lord took his life. Then Judah said to Onan, ‘Unite with your brother’s widow, in fulfillment of your duty as brother-in-law, and thus preserve your brother’s line.’

“Onan, however, knew that the descendents would not be counted as his; so, whenever he had relations with his brother’s widow, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother. What he did greatly offended the Lord, and the Lord took his life too.”

Onan was supposed to marry his deceased brother’s childless widow. This practice, known as the Levirate law (from the Latin levir, meaning “a husband’s brother”), was required by the Law of Moses (Deut. 25:5-10) and was intended to insure an unmarried brother would “raise up seed for the deceased brother that his name be not blotted out of Israel.”

The argument against contraception, specifically coitus interruptus, based on this passage used to be considered straightforward. In recent years, both Protestant and Catholic commentators have downplayed, if not outright rejected, the anti-contraception interpretation of this text. Their argument goes like this: Onan’s sin consisted solely in his abandonment of his familial obligations to his dead brother. Onan performed the act which bears his name because the child which might have resulted would have been counted as his brother’s, rather than his own–something Onan found intolerable.

The difficulty with this argument is that violation of the Levirate law was not a capital offense. If a man didn’t fulfill his obligations to his deceased brother’s wife, she was to take the matter to the elders, who would counsel him and try to persuade him to change his mind. If he persisted, the widow was to “go up to him and strip his sandal from his foot and spit in his face, saying publicly, ‘This is how one should be treated who will not build up his brother’s family!’” (Deut. 25:9).

While such a punishment might be embarrassing, it falls short of the death sentence Onan received for his act. This suggests he sinned not only by violating the Levirate law, but also by the way in which he did so. The kind of act he committed was so despicable that, in the Old Testament context, it was punishable by death.

John Kippley, in Covenant, Christ and Contraception (New York: Alba House, 1970, page 19), explains it this way:

“Onan went through the motions of the life-giving act but refused to accept the consequences. He withdrew in order that the act could carry no reproductive consequences . . . [H]e went through the motions of the Levirate covenant, but he denied the reality of that covenant.”

Catholic teaching regards marriage as a covenant which has as one of its constituent elements an openness to new life and the procreative good. Sexual intercourse involves a renewal of the marriage covenant. Contraceptive intercourse is a violation of that covenant because it acts directly against procreation, one of the basic goods of marriage.

By acting contraceptively, Onan robbed sexual intercourse of its life-giving meaning and acted against the good of his potential offspring’s life. Both his intent and his concrete actions were against life. As a result, Onan received the Old Testament penalty for his crime.
 
Confused,
I think if I were in your position, I would be feeling much like you are. And it may be that you and your wife can not have a “normal” habit of marital relations - meaning, having relations as often as the average married couple. But knowing that artificial birth control has a failure rate, I’d be nervous about putting my trust in them either.

Have you ever looked into the Sympto-Thermal method of NFP? Specifically, the Couple to Couple League www.ccli.org ? I have an old copy of their home study book, and they talk about “Phase 3 Rules.” They talk about one very strict method of NFP, in which the couple only has relations in the last part (phase 3) of the woman’s cycle, and that this improves the effectiveness. Again, if I were in your position, I might look into this - use temperatures and mucus signs, and only after I was absolutely certain that I had ovulated, THEN have relations on those days. It might work out to only once or twice a month, or sometimes even going some months with no marital relations. But in my mind, something now and then would be better than nothing. So I wouldn’t have a normal AMOUNT of relations with my husband, but I could say that we still had a physical relationship. And it would be all done in a way that I could feel safe, body AND soul.

I also think that if this method still causes too much fear, then maybe you should revisit the idea of complete abstinence. My understanding is that this decision shouldn’t be taken lightly, and that you should seek the counsel of a good spiritual director on a decision like this. But keep in mind that your and your wife’s job to get each other to heaven is more important than your (very understandable) desire for a “normal marriage” in this life. So if it comes down to either abstinence or artificial birth control, it is the only logical option to choose the one that doesn’t risk your soul.

I’m sorry you have this dilemma - it is certainly a cross to bear. You’re in my prayers.
Pregnancy is a huge risk for my wife.
For me, the most acceptable answer is of the “former catholic”. the problem we talk about is the matter between me, my wife and God.

I’ll say only the following and that woukd be all from me…
  1. I have to protect my wife as much as I can: I do not think God wants me to risk her life.
  2. I do not think God wants us to abstain from being intimate.
  3. If, regardless of our protection measures, conception occurs, we’ll accept it as God’s will.
God bless you all.

P.S.
“Double moral”, one for public, the other one practised, is something that is killing Catholic Church from the very top of hierarchy. Why does the Catholic Church want to hide all homosexual and pedophile crimes of their own priests??
God bless them and enlight them all.
 
Pregnancy is a huge risk for my wife.
For me, the most acceptable answer is of the “former catholic”. the problem we talk about is the matter between me, my wife and God.

I’ll say only the following and that woukd be all from me…
  1. I have to protect my wife as much as I can: I do not think God wants me to risk her life.
  2. I do not think God wants us to abstain from being intimate.
  3. If, regardless of our protection measures, conception occurs, we’ll accept it as God’s will.
God bless you all.
God bless you as well my friend. Get a priest to talk to.

Good luck.
 
One thing I’ve already said.

The main reason for any kind of contraception is A WISH NOT TO GET BABY.
It is valid for both, natural and “artificial” contraception.

So, a couple practicing natural contraception eagerly does not want to get baby. Their chances to get baby are 5%. But, they are correct, they obey Catechism.

A couple practising artificial contraception also eagerly does not want to get baby. Their chances to get baby are 1%. But, they are not correct, they do not obey Catechism.

You have to obey God’s commandments written in the Bible- that’s the key
As another poster mentioned, using the Sympto-Thermal Method with conservative rules yields an 99% to 100% effectiveness rate. Condoms do not approach that.
 
As another poster mentioned, using the Sympto-Thermal Method with conservative rules yields an 99% to 100% effectiveness rate. Condoms do not approach that.
I’ve already written: simultaneous combination of methods raises chances of not getting pregnant. If the method you mentioned has chances 99:100 and condom the same, both methods combined reach 9999:10000. That is much better than 99:100.
 
EVEN if Condoms or pills or diaphrams or IUDs or any of them were 100000000000% assurance, they are still contrary to the moral law.

This law applies to all humankind who ever lived on the earth, it applies to Methodists and to Pentecostals, to Jews and to Muslims, to Hindus and to Pagans. God established the moral law for all mankind and revealed that law through the Scriptures and Tradition.

Either you accept God’s law or you reject it and reject Him.

More people walk away from God over pelvic issues than any other, sad that people choose orgasms above Jesus.
 
I’ve already written: simultaneous combination of methods raises chances of not getting pregnant. If the method you mentioned has chances 99:100 and condom the same, both methods combined reach 9999:10000. That is much better than 99:100.
Yes, but it would be wrong, as kage_ar says.

I think you know what the correct path is, you are simply afraid to choose it.
 
She had a caesarean section.
It sounds like a botched C-section to me. I’d talk to a different doctor about it.

If it’s a C-section you’re afraid of, know that my grandmother, during the 1950s and 1960s went through 7 C-sections without any problems, even though the doctor told her she should have only have had one. If she had not gone through it, I would not be here, nor would be most of my family. My mom was #6 of 7 children.

C-sections are much safer today, and many even consider them safer than natural birthing if done correctly by the doctor.
 
This is not a matter to come to an internet forum for an answer. None of these people have ever been in your position. It is their opinion that contraception, except for NFP (which can be used as contraception) is wrong. No one here is going to tell you its OK. Even those who have no problem with the use of medical contraceptives or sterilization will speak up, and if we tried we would just be shouted down with canned arguments repeated ad nauseum.

If you have any disagreements with Church teaching, this is not the forum to discuss it. There is an apologetics forum to ask questions in and a Non-Catholic religion forum for discussions. If you want to discuss this with some who may be able to see your side, I would suggest the Non-Catholic religions forum.
 
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