Controversy erupts over Campus Republicans bake sale plans

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stinkcat_14 said:
Actually I need to respond to this again to point out what Rich is actually saying. The hypothetical was a poor white kid from a dysfunctional family gets discriminated against. So let’s say that this kid beats the odds and qualifies to go to Harvard, and yet is discriminated against because of AA.

What is Rich’s response: Because you come from a dysfunctional family you have no business in Harvard anyway? So much for the liberal compassion!
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That’s not what I said. The hypothetical was a kid from a dysfunctional family, and a free ride to Harvard isn’t going to help him get over that.

Oh, yes, you change the goal posts and say, “let’s say this kid beats the odds…” Well, let’s change them a bit more and say a fabulous rich relative of that kid’s dies and leaves the family some $20 million. Now, he can take care of the dysfunction and go on to Harvard on his own nickel. Yeah.
 
rlg94086 said:
Please don’t! Your curing racial discrimination through racial discrimination argument doesnt get any more compelling by repeating it over and over again.
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And your compelling argument for a better solution?
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
It’s not a game. It’s a serious problem and I’d like to see you people propose some solutions, rather than just try to make points by knocking us personally.
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I’ve already mentioned voucher programs to help elevate the education levels in poverty-stricken areas. I also like the Union-opposed charter schools, which have proven very effective. Those, combined with scholarship opportunities, do much more than affirmative action. And, (bonus!) they have nothing to do with the color of one’s skin. Some of the problems don’t have a government solution. For those, I would call upon the communities and churches to get involved.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
What is Rich’s response: Because you come from a dysfunctional family you have no business in Harvard anyway? So much for the liberal compassion!
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A heck of a lot better than conservative “compasssion” that offers the kid nothing, I’d say.
 
rlg94086 said:
Thanks for adding a fourth…
  1. Lack of sufficient funding for schools predominantly attended by minorities.
That isn’t fixed by affirmative action either…

You guys are striking out.
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I was just looking at some data, and I noticed that the City of Chicago spends more on a per pupil basis than the average school in Illinois and they get worse results. So if they are spending more and doing worse, perhaps funding is not the problem?
 
rlg94086 said:
I’ve already mentioned voucher programs to help elevate the education levels in poverty-stricken areas. I also like the Union-opposed charter schools, which have proven very effective. Those, combined with scholarship opportunities, do much more than affirmative action. And, (bonus!) they have nothing to do with the color of one’s skin. Some of the problems don’t have a government solution. For those, I would call upon the communities and churches to get involved.
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And all this is working? Where?
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
A heck of a lot better than conservative “compasssion” that offers the kid nothing, I’d say.
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The conservatives would say he deserves to be in Harvard, and they would not discriminate against him. Tell me how is discriminating against him being compassionate?
 
stinkcat_14 said:
I was just looking at some data, and I noticed that the City of Chicago spends more on a per pupil basis than the average school in Illinois and they get worse results. So if they are spending more and doing worse, perhaps funding is not the problem?
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I don’t doubt that. Quality of teachers has more to do with it than per pupil spending levels.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
Oh, yes, you change the goal posts and say, “let’s say this kid beats the odds…” Well, let’s change them a bit more and say a fabulous rich relative of that kid’s dies and leaves the family some $20 million. Now, he can take care of the dysfunction and go on to Harvard on his own nickel. Yeah.
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I am saying that the kid was discriminated against and using your harvard example. Obviously if he didn’t qualify for harvard and get passed over he wasn’t discriminated against.
 
NonServiam said:
To build off of Rich’s list:
  1. Poverty
  2. Racial discrimination
  3. Lack of a home environment conducive to success in school or at job acquisition.
  4. Lack of sufficient funding for schools predominantly attended by minorities.
“Racial discrimination” is actually an umbrella term for a whole host of inequities built into the system, from discrimination in practices of hiring, in the criminal justice system, in housing segregation, to less egregious examples of discrimination that, taken as a whole, can contribute to the feeling of being a second-class citizen (being watched suspiciously in a store, being stopped more often when driving, having difficulty hailing a cab, etc.).

And, keep in mind, we’re not just talking about all of these problems as problems that sprung into being with this generation. Most of these problems have their roots in older problems, like actual slavery, in the more in-your-face versions of racism that existed in generations past (including outright lynchings), and in the construction of minorities as Other and as second-class citizens. These problems are additionally exacerbated by the current state of the economy – when there are not as many jobs to be had, even by people who have more opportunities for education – and an increase in illegal immigrant labor, which takes more jobs away from an already starved job market.

Now, any of these issues, in isolation, could greatly contribute to a group being oppressed, but all of them, taken together, have produced a vast disparity between races that is only just starting to get better.

So no, we’re not talking about “let’s help out the poor!” or “let’s help out people from broken homes!” or “let’s help out anyone who’s ever had trouble hailing a cab!” We’re talking about a massive, wide-spread web of inequality that can’t be reduced to any one particular problem, but that produces effects that we, as a society, don’t like.

Obviously, I’m not saying that every minority faces all of these problems, just as I’m not trying to claim that no white person has any serious problems. Again, this is a broad, societal issue. Looking at it in the big picture, there are serious inequities in the system and serious problems. People are not starting with equal advantages, so it is absolutely racial discrimination to treat them as if they do have those equal advantages. Think of it as discrimination of omission.

Now, the question is, what are we going to do about it? We could do nothing. That’s an option. As I noted, unfairness, inequality, and discrimination are parts of life, and you’re always going to have it, so one option here is to just say, “Oh well, too bad.”

But such a response is short-sighted and, in the long run, will probably be bad for society. Any plan that involves essentially ignoring the serious plight of a significant segment of the population is, generally speaking, a pretty stupid plan in the long run. So, being the kind of people who want to avoid stupid plans, we decide to do something.

So what shall we do? Well, hold on to your hats, this may be a radical suggestion, but: how about we take those inequalities into consideration when we make decisions about certain things that have to do with social advancement? They won’t be the be-all and end-all of the decision-making process, of course. But they’ll be taken into consideration.

Someone who comes from a background that is more likely to have had fewer advantages is given a bit more of a break than someone who comes from a background that is more likely to have a whole lot more advantages. Now is that “discrimination”? Of course – we already said that there’s always going to be discrimination. We decided already that this new kind of discrimination was better than the other kind discrimination we had, which we concluded would probably be “stupid” and a “bad plan” in the long run. Remember all this? OK, good, try to stay with me.

Now, is this new plan “unfair”? Maybe, in some circumstances. Again, life is unfair, so you’re not going to have perfect fairness. Under any plan, you’ll always be able to find a handful of sob stories and oh-woe-is-me stories. But we’re not focusing on individuals here: the point is society, the big picture, social effects.

And in the big picture, this kind of policy is more conducive to addressing those inequities and making the kinds of change we want.

Sheesh. Don’t make me explain it again.
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Great post! I wouldn’t hold your breath in anyone here getting what you are saying though. 😦

Perhaps this is a related question for Conservatives here. In most states (all states?) Those of Native Americans who grew up on reservations can have a free college education at a public University. Would you support this? I’m guessing not but still felt like asking.

I had a free under-graduate and graduate education because I am legally blind. Would you be in favor of this? I’m guessing not here as well, but anyways. . . . .

I will say that spending time on CAF politics has really solidified my decision to never vote for a Conservative, unless their ideas are COMPLETELY different from those I read here.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
The conservatives would say he deserves to be in Harvard, and they would not discriminate against him. Tell me how is discriminating against him being compassionate?
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Remember, he’s from a dysfunctional family according to the scenario. I don’t think that even a conservative would want to pluck him out of his home as is and drop him into Harvard Yard.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
Remember, he’s from a dysfunctional family according to the scenario. I don’t think that even a conservative would want to pluck him out of his home as is and drop him into Harvard Yard.
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A conservative would not discriminate against him, a liberal would and sleep at night.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
And all this is working? Where?
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Here’s one example: hcz.org/our-results

Note that the HCZ Project Pipeline actually has two tracks: about 1,200 children now go through the Promise Academy Charter School, but the organization also supports the children who attend the public schools in the Zone or who live in the Zone and go to school elsewhere.

The HCZ Project Pipeline

PROMISE ACADEMY

100% of third graders at Promise Academies I and II tested at or above grade level on the math exam, outperforming their peers in New York State, New York City, District 5, and black and white students throughout the state
Over 98% of Promise Academy II’s students scored at or above grade level on the math exam, outperforming their counterparts in New York State, New York City and District 5, as well as black and white students in New York State
In English and Language Arts (ELA), over 93% of Promise Academy I third graders tested at or above grade level, outperforming New York State, New York City and District 5 peers, as well as black and white students in New York State
Over 84% of Promise Academy II’s students scored at or above grade level in ELA, outperforming on average their counterparts in New York State, New York City and District 5, as well as black students in New York City
In 2008, 93% of Promise Academy High School ninth graders passed the statewide Algebra Regents exam.
Learn more about Promise Academy

Our afterschool programs:

TRUCE MEDIA AND FITNESS

97% of TRUCE seniors graduated from high school by August 2010; 100% of seniors applied to college and all of these students were accepted into at least one school.

EMPLOYMENT AND TECHNOLOGY

100% of high school after-school program participants (284 of 284) stayed in school
ETC seniors received over $1.8 million in financial aid, including full scholarships and grants
Learn more about the Employment and Technology Program

COLLEGE SUCCESS OFFICE

626 HCZ after-school program participants are enrolled in college
254 students were accepted into college for the 2010-2011 year, representing 90% of our high-school seniors.
This incoming freshman class obtained over $6.4 million in scholarships and grants
Learn more about the College Success Office
 
ringil said:
Great post! I wouldn’t hold your breath in anyone here getting what you are saying though. :(.
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. Breathe. We get it. We just disagree.
ringil said:
Perhaps this is a related question for Conservatives here. In most states (all states?) Those of Native Americans who grew up on reservations can have a free college education at a public University. Would you support this? I’m guessing not but still felt like asking.
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No problem with it. You guessed wrong.
"Ringil:
had a free under-graduate and graduate education because I am legally blind. Would you be in favor of this? I’m guessing not here as well, but anyways. . . . .
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Wrong again.
ringil said:
I will say that spending time on CAF politics has really solidified my decision to never vote for a Conservative, unless their ideas are COMPLETELY different from those I read here.
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I’m sorry to hear that. It doesn’t change the fact that you favor racial discrimination through affirmative action.
 
rlg94086 said:
That isn’t fixed by affirmative action either
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It’s not a list of things that affirmative action will fix: it’s a list of the causes of inequities that necessitate a plan like affirmative action, which is what you were asking me for to begin with.

To repeat myself: Affirmative action doesn’t address poverty per se, any more than it addresses broken homes per se or people being followed by security guards per se or people who have problem hailing cabs per se.

Those who object on the grounds of, “Oh, it’s really a problem of poverty! So we should adjust for poverty and not for race!” are spectacularly missing the point. The issue here is multi-faceted, stemming from numerous sources and issuing forth in a racial disparity that we want to address.

But just as affirmative action isn’t intended to solve the problem of poverty, neither is affirmative action intended to solve any of those other causes: it’s designed to address the social disparity between races.
 
Why do you feel it isn’t an unfair advantage for Native Americans to have their entire education paid for by the state? Wouldn’t this fit into the conservative definition of “racism or discrimination” posited in this thread?
 
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