Convince Me The Biblical Version is Fact

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Hope1960 said:
So far, no one has used science to prove Genesis’ version of human origins and origin of our species is a fact.
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Try…


By the way, there is no need to use science to prove the Genesis version as a fact. One need only demonstrate that the Genesis version could be a scientific possibility.

Proving it as a fact, at this point, is even beyond what science can do since science doesn’t quite have a handle on what actually transpired, only a loosely defined theory.
 
I think that you have gotten too enveloped in this culture war between Evangelical Protestants and atheists. Catholics, Orthodox Christians and even many types of Protestants don’t see this as an issue. It is very common for Christians to believe in evolution.
 
“Educated” people are not God. I have a Masters degree but I don’t think that has given me supernatural powers.
 
HarryStotle said:
By the way, there is no need to use science to prove the Genesis version as a fact. One need only demonstrate that the Genesis version could be a scientific possibility.
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But is the Genesis version a scientific possibility and if so, what makes you think so?
 
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Seeing that He had a part in Creation with God the Father and the Holy Spirit, I’m pretty sure He knew they were made just as Genesis describes. God is all knowledge.
 
Hope1960 said:
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HarryStotle:
By the way, there is no need to use science to prove the Genesis version as a fact. One need only demonstrate that the Genesis version could be a scientific possibility.
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But is the Genesis version a scientific possibility and if so, what makes you think so?
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What do you want me to do? Spell out his entire case in a short post?

Did you read theOFloin’s post? He makes the case much better than I could.

His conclusion is worth repeating, though.
IOW, the mythos of Adam and Eve still makes sense when read in the traditional anagogical manner, not in spite of evolutionary learnings but because of them. Of course, we must be wary of concordism. Being compatible with consensus science is a tricky thing. Just ask the clerics who defended long-established geocentrism. If it ain’t falsifiable, it ain’t science; so we must allow the possibility that what we think we know about evolution is all wrong. That is why it is not a good idea to get too chummy with science, since you never know when she’ll pack up her bags and leave you holding the bills.
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Now, the converse also holds true, however. If science reveals a problem with a current interpretation of the Bible, it may be that our interpretation is incorrect. The literary form of Genesis allows for that. It isn’t meant to be a literal description of what occurred, it is poetic and figurative but at the same time revealing truth.

If you are looking for someone to tell you that the Genesis account is literal and factual you won’t find that someone here. If you are looking for someone to tell you the Genesis account is provably false based on scientific facts, you won’t find that here, either.

The Genesis account is true but written in such a way that it points to even deeper truth.

As far as science goes: If it ain’t falsifiable, it ain’t science; so we must allow the possibility that what we think we know about evolution is all wrong.

As far as truth goes: So we must allow for the possibility that what we think we know for certain is merely scratching the surface of what needs to be known.
 
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J_the_Centrist said:
“Educated” people are not God. I have a Masters degree but I don’t think that has given me supernatural powers.
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You should ask for your money back, then.

I have heard of those with masters degrees who can swell their heads to two or three times their normal size.

Quite a feet… … I mean feat. 😉
 
Yes, yes I’ve heard. We also can transport ourselves at will from place to place.

Wow, I just went to China and back to Brooklyn in 2.5 seconds. 😁
 
HarryStotle said:
What do you want me to do? Spell out his entire case in a short post?

Did you read theOFloin’s post? He makes the case much better than I could.

His conclusion is worth repeating, though.
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I read it but some of it was over my head.
 
hope we do not have to take the first 11 chapters of Genesis literally. What we take from it is that adam and eve represent the first humans of Gods creation .
Original sin, the first sin of creatures, Adam and Eve, was disobedience to God.
I have no quarrel, as a Scientist, with

God creating evolution.

nor do many of my peers
 
Hope1960 said:
So far, no one has used science to prove Genesis’ version of human origins and origin of our species is a fact.
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Here’s what I think you are missing…

The entire foundation of science rests upon the way the observable universe is, as a matter of fact.

That does not mean the universe couldn’t be very different. All the facts about the universe could have been very different, barring logical impossibilities.

Since all scientific conclusions are premised upon the most basic facts about the universe (the cosmological constants and laws of physics that order it), then every scientific conclusion is contingent upon the way the universe happens to be.

If the universe, in fact, was brought into existence by a supernatural entity, say God, then God would necessarily have the power to make those laws of physics and those constants that underly the observable order. He would also have the power to make them anything he willed them to be. As a result, the way the universe happens to be could have been quite different had God willed it to be different. Our science would then have also been very different.

The observable laws of physics are only mathematical depictions of the way the universe happens to be. They don’t tell us anything about why things are that way or how they came to be that way. Those would be the deeper truths about the universe that science cannot even begin to address, but the Bible, if it is the inspired word of the Creator God would tell us things about the universe and our place in it that science could never possibly answer, since science can only begin from the natural order as we observe it to be and no deeper.
 
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Hope1960 said:
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HarryStotle:
What do you want me to do? Spell out his entire case in a short post?

Did you read theOFloin’s post? He makes the case much better than I could.

His conclusion is worth repeating, though.
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I read it but some of it was over my head.
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You are being honest and that is a very good starting point. 🤔
 
Prove to me that they weren’t. There is a fair amount of the O. T. that is allegorical and a lot of the O. T that is factual. I have no problem with evolution. I am very open to the concept that at some point in our evolving history that humankind reached a level of consciousness and self-awareness, that The Lord breathed His spirit into “Adam and Eve.” And here we are. I also think we may be in a rapid state of ‘development’, for good or bad with even the possible’ collapse of spiritual progress. But then, what do I know. What is your opinion? Peace.
 
MaryEstelle2 said:
Prove to me that they weren’t. There is a fair amount of the O. T. that is allegorical and a lot of the O. T that is factual. I have no problem with evolution. I am very open to the concept that at some point in our evolving history that humankind reached a level of consciousness and self-awareness, that The Lord breathed His spirit into “Adam and Eve.” And here we are. I also think we may be in a rapid state of ‘development’, for good or bad with even the possible’ collapse of spiritual progress. But then, what do I know. What is your opinion? Peace.
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I’ve always believed we came to be by Evolution but, like I said upthread, this non-denominational Church I’ve been thinking about visiting doesn’t.
 
Hope1960 said:
So far, no one has used science to prove Genesis’ version of human origins and origin of our species is a fact.
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Because this can’t be done. Any honest scientist will admit that science doesn’t delve into spiritual questions that don’t involve empirical evidence and observable, measurable phenomena. The Genesis accounts don’t fit those criteria and are therefore unable to be scientifically studied.
 
Hope1960 said:
this non-denominational Church I’ve been thinking about visiting doesn’t.
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And why do you care what they think? Seems to me there are bigger matters of spiritual concern for you than the unnecessary “evolution vs Genesis” debate.
 
Cor_ad_Cor said:
And why do you care what they think? Seems to me there are bigger matters of spiritual concern for you than the unnecessary “evolution vs Genesis” debate.
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I care because I’ve been thinking ahead. If I do visit there and if I like it, I’d have to adhere to their beliefs.
 
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