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dvdjs
Guest
Sad? :Really? Sorry I missed that.
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mardukm
Guest
Add to this the fact that the Church does not permit proselytization of the Orthodox. Orthodox who come into the Catholic Church today because of their own independent searching of their own accord, AFAIK< not because of active missionary efforts.Perhaps most Coptic Orthodox are just happy staying Coptic Orthodox.
P.S. Then again, it also depends on what you call small. “Small” makes me think of the Anglican Ordinariates – whose membership is a small fraction of the CCC’s 163,630. (The difference, I believe, can be attributed to the fact that they are much newer than even the CCC. It’s certainly not reflective of encouragement (and I’m somewhat hesitant to even use that word) because we Catholics are much more reluctant to encourage an Orthodox to convert to Catholicism than to encourage an Anglican to do so.)
It’s a different situation with Protestants. There are active ministries geared towards the conversion of Protestants. But we don’t do that with the Orthodox, and we are not supposed to.
We can witness if they ask, but we shouldn’t try to impose ourselves on them.
Blessings,
Marduk
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Peter_J
Guest
Thanks, mardukm; although I don’t know if I would go quite that far (which is interesting, I guess, since some might think I go a little too far with my not-proselytizing-Orthodox ideas).
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Nestor_kea
Guest
So invalidly ordained priest cannot become bishop without being reordained? If there are two more bishops to ensure validity, why there is nothing to ensure another possible threat to validity – invalid priest?
I think even invalid priest becomes bishop by episcopal ordination because this gives him fulness of priesthood and adds all and everything what is needed to his full priesthood.
And how with deacon → priest?
Is this situation different because originaly there was not necessarily the sequence deacon-priest-bishop?
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Nestor_kea
Guest
By the way, if you would like to “switch” in future to another sui iuris from your default, you can choose quite freely. I had feeling you considered yourself to be part of Ukrainian GCC because of being accepted there, what was corrected.
Now it is probably clear but I wanted to state that you can be Catholic Copt visiting Byzantine or Latin parish as well as you could if you would like Byzantine rite and would be participating in e. g. Ukrainian GCC, you can be e. g. in Ruthenian GCC if you would have sentiment (or anything else) to support this sui iuris etc.
Hasn’t your procedure been too fast? It seemed to me you just came to mass, asked to be confessed and accepted, all during one evening + no priest’s examination of you in time. I would expect that conversion should not be so mega fast (if not in threat of death or so).
Now it is probably clear but I wanted to state that you can be Catholic Copt visiting Byzantine or Latin parish as well as you could if you would like Byzantine rite and would be participating in e. g. Ukrainian GCC, you can be e. g. in Ruthenian GCC if you would have sentiment (or anything else) to support this sui iuris etc.
Hasn’t your procedure been too fast? It seemed to me you just came to mass, asked to be confessed and accepted, all during one evening + no priest’s examination of you in time. I would expect that conversion should not be so mega fast (if not in threat of death or so).
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Peter_J
Guest
You may be right.
It did sound very fast to me too, although I was reluctant to speak on it, for the simple reason that we weren’t there with coptsoldier, nor have with spoken with the priest in question.
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mardukm
Guest
Brother Coptsoldier had indicated he made the decision after about 3 years of deliberation. I don’t think that is sudden at all.
I was received by confession and profession of faith. Some other persons here on CAF who have made the Orthodox->Catholic journey have indicated the same thing.
Adult Orthodox normally are not required to have instruction when coming into communion with Rome, nor vice versa. Such persons normally seek instruction voluntarily if they feel they need to.
Blessings
I was received by confession and profession of faith. Some other persons here on CAF who have made the Orthodox->Catholic journey have indicated the same thing.
Adult Orthodox normally are not required to have instruction when coming into communion with Rome, nor vice versa. Such persons normally seek instruction voluntarily if they feel they need to.
Blessings
P
Peter_J
Guest
It isn’t, but I don’t believe that is at all what Nestor Kea was referring to. (Not that I can read your mind, Nestor Kea, I’m just going on my reading of what you said.) I refer you to:Brother Coptsoldier had indicated he made the decision after about 3 years of deliberation. I don’t think that is sudden at all.
But like I said, I wasn’t there and I haven’t spoken to the priest, so I’m reluctant to speak on it.
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Nestor_kea
Guest
You probably cannot read my mind… well, perhaps… 
but you got very exactly what my thoughs had been based on. I noticed only “during mass” and didn’t notice “three years” and anything about priest aware of three years.
but you got very exactly what my thoughs had been based on. I noticed only “during mass” and didn’t notice “three years” and anything about priest aware of three years.
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malphono
Guest
You can add me to the list. I had exactly the same thought, but like Peter, was reluctant to mention it.Peter J;11695185:
You probably cannot read my mind… well, perhaps…
C
coptsoldier
Guest
Thankyou all for your concern and prayers.
Now I need to provide some background information to understand why I suddenly jumped ship. 6 Years ago I was a fundamentalist Pentecostal who was very anti Catholic. I was invited to World Youth Day as my Church, Hillsong, was playing at one of the nights. After hillsong had finished their set of songs, a girl came up and said a hail mary. The Hillsong people stormed out in protest “What an unchristian thing, praying to mary” was the consistant thought. Myself and two friends remained at the gathering of 60,000 pilgrims. Anyway as the night continued, they brought out this funny shaped cross and started incensing it and kneeling to it. I had no idea what was going on at the time
youtube.com/watch?v=ccl0NDMIO4U
Now Do I agree with everything the charismatic Catholics do? No I do not. However, they bring a heck of alot of pentecostals to Catholicism.
Anyway to Continue, I had an insane spiritual moment. The Presence of God was insanely strong, and it was emminating from this Funny Looking cross. After this encounter I started reading the Church fathers, and was preparing in RCIA to be recieved into the Latin Church.
This is when I came across the Circus mess of the Catholic Diocese of Sydney. I went to my first mass and was horrified at the abuses I saw. At the same Time, I had a friend who was Coptic Orthodox. He invited me to attend the Coptic Othrodox Church, And I fell in love with the liturgy. Whilst I had western Theological Leanings, I could not come into communion with Rome until the Traditional Mass ban was lifted, and the traditional mass was offered.
Now lets fast forward. Its 2014. The Anglican Ordinariate in my country is formed in 2012. The Latin Mass is offered at multiple locations in my community, and Pope Benedict has lifted the Ban of the Mass. Also the Coptic Church has introduced certain teachings (Whether they believed it always and I didn’t know, or they changed I am not sure) that I consider to be heterodox. Some of these include allowing abortion in case of life threatening cases, allowing contraception, allowing divorce for adultery and Apostacy, Rebaptism of catholics, and denying the Sinlessness of Sancta Maria.
Since I was baptised in 2010, I have believed in many of the Catholic Churches teachings, and the ones I personally didn’t hold I did not view as heresy. For this reason, the time at the Liturgy of the Ukrainians was a turning point in which I fully realized just how Much i was sad with my spiritual state.
As Marduk has already mentioned, Orthodox to Catholic conversion is alot quicker then protestant to catholic. Orthodox are indeed allowed to recieve the Blessed sacraments WITHOUT conversion in certain circumstances. The Syrian Orthodox Church and the Syrian Catholic Church enjoy effective Full Communion in Syria. As Such, Orthodox are recieved as Catholic by confession alone.
This would have been a very dangerous move had it been out of nowhere. However this has been over 6 years in the coming. My first confession with my Ukrainian Priest was that God called me to Rome and I did a Jonah. I was filled with Pride, and instead of trying to bring back True Catholicism from within the Church, I schism. I am happy to God for my time with the Coptic Orthodox, as it taught me to defend traditional Catholic faith rather then make everyone around me happy.
For me I was spiritually torn for 4 Years. I loved the Catholic church and believed she had saints, but I had extreme reservations about the Modernization of the Church (I still do) and did not give the Eastern Church a chance. I have repented of this. When one is repenting, you should not put off that repentance because you may change your mind. You repent.
My Parish priest at the Ukrainians was satisfied that my conversion was authentic and recieved me. Once again, the Orthodox to catholic mentality is extremely different then Protestant to catholic. We as Orthodox are not heretics. My faith has not changed since becoming catholic, but Rather has come to the fulfilment of the Doctorine of the Church, and now has official approval to recognise Rome as Valid.
Rome does not engage in conversion of Orthodox. Nor do the eastern Catholics. The Only orthodox who become catholic do so at their own choice. It is hard for us. For example I can no longer commune in the Coptic Church, even though my wife is still a member and I attend mass regularly there. It sucks. But the coptic church does not recognise us as one church. Which is plain and Simply wrong.
Now I need to provide some background information to understand why I suddenly jumped ship. 6 Years ago I was a fundamentalist Pentecostal who was very anti Catholic. I was invited to World Youth Day as my Church, Hillsong, was playing at one of the nights. After hillsong had finished their set of songs, a girl came up and said a hail mary. The Hillsong people stormed out in protest “What an unchristian thing, praying to mary” was the consistant thought. Myself and two friends remained at the gathering of 60,000 pilgrims. Anyway as the night continued, they brought out this funny shaped cross and started incensing it and kneeling to it. I had no idea what was going on at the time
youtube.com/watch?v=ccl0NDMIO4U
Now Do I agree with everything the charismatic Catholics do? No I do not. However, they bring a heck of alot of pentecostals to Catholicism.
Anyway to Continue, I had an insane spiritual moment. The Presence of God was insanely strong, and it was emminating from this Funny Looking cross. After this encounter I started reading the Church fathers, and was preparing in RCIA to be recieved into the Latin Church.
This is when I came across the Circus mess of the Catholic Diocese of Sydney. I went to my first mass and was horrified at the abuses I saw. At the same Time, I had a friend who was Coptic Orthodox. He invited me to attend the Coptic Othrodox Church, And I fell in love with the liturgy. Whilst I had western Theological Leanings, I could not come into communion with Rome until the Traditional Mass ban was lifted, and the traditional mass was offered.
Now lets fast forward. Its 2014. The Anglican Ordinariate in my country is formed in 2012. The Latin Mass is offered at multiple locations in my community, and Pope Benedict has lifted the Ban of the Mass. Also the Coptic Church has introduced certain teachings (Whether they believed it always and I didn’t know, or they changed I am not sure) that I consider to be heterodox. Some of these include allowing abortion in case of life threatening cases, allowing contraception, allowing divorce for adultery and Apostacy, Rebaptism of catholics, and denying the Sinlessness of Sancta Maria.
Since I was baptised in 2010, I have believed in many of the Catholic Churches teachings, and the ones I personally didn’t hold I did not view as heresy. For this reason, the time at the Liturgy of the Ukrainians was a turning point in which I fully realized just how Much i was sad with my spiritual state.
As Marduk has already mentioned, Orthodox to Catholic conversion is alot quicker then protestant to catholic. Orthodox are indeed allowed to recieve the Blessed sacraments WITHOUT conversion in certain circumstances. The Syrian Orthodox Church and the Syrian Catholic Church enjoy effective Full Communion in Syria. As Such, Orthodox are recieved as Catholic by confession alone.
This would have been a very dangerous move had it been out of nowhere. However this has been over 6 years in the coming. My first confession with my Ukrainian Priest was that God called me to Rome and I did a Jonah. I was filled with Pride, and instead of trying to bring back True Catholicism from within the Church, I schism. I am happy to God for my time with the Coptic Orthodox, as it taught me to defend traditional Catholic faith rather then make everyone around me happy.
For me I was spiritually torn for 4 Years. I loved the Catholic church and believed she had saints, but I had extreme reservations about the Modernization of the Church (I still do) and did not give the Eastern Church a chance. I have repented of this. When one is repenting, you should not put off that repentance because you may change your mind. You repent.
My Parish priest at the Ukrainians was satisfied that my conversion was authentic and recieved me. Once again, the Orthodox to catholic mentality is extremely different then Protestant to catholic. We as Orthodox are not heretics. My faith has not changed since becoming catholic, but Rather has come to the fulfilment of the Doctorine of the Church, and now has official approval to recognise Rome as Valid.
Rome does not engage in conversion of Orthodox. Nor do the eastern Catholics. The Only orthodox who become catholic do so at their own choice. It is hard for us. For example I can no longer commune in the Coptic Church, even though my wife is still a member and I attend mass regularly there. It sucks. But the coptic church does not recognise us as one church. Which is plain and Simply wrong.
P
Peter_J
Guest
Hi coptsoldier. There is, obviously, a lot here … but let me restrict myself to one question (for now 
) …
) …The highlighted sentence appears, at first glance, to mean “instead … I schismed from the COC” except that interpretation seems completely contrary to the other sentences. So, did you (in your view) “schism” another time, that you are referring to here?
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coptsoldier
Guest
What I meant was that I Schismed against the Catholic Church. it wont let me edit it lol
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Peter_J
Guest
Thank you for clarifying. I figured it meant that you had “schismed” from (I prefer not to say "schismed against _______ " … as a matter of fact, I’m not entirely crazy about saying "schismed from _______ ") the Catholic Church, but I wasn’t sure.
Anyhow, thanks for providing all that background information. I think it will help us to understand you better.
C
coptsoldier
Guest
feel free to ask any questions, I promise I dont bite
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Peter_J
Guest
Then you’ve come to the right forum.
B
Blind_Didymus
Guest
Many would see this simply as a jurisdictional change rather than a change of faith. However your change from being Mormon to being Christian is certainly a change of religion.
Personally, I see both St Alexis Toth and St Jehosaphat as being admirable people who did their best for their respective flocks of faithful Christians.
B
Blind_Didymus
Guest
josie L;11688876:
YesHave you yourself been made to feel this way when you joined the Catholic Church?
Sorry about each of the above.
J
jbp
Guest
hi coptsoldier and everyone,
first of all, welcome to the Catholic Church.
i have been a reader of these forums but never had the imperative to actually bother and join, not to mention do the tedium of registering to join and make a post
. until i saw and was moved by your post.
all christians should be shocked and horrified at re-baptism. for as long as anyone was validly baptized by the trinitarian formula, there should be no question.
"we believe in one God, the Father…
"we believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ…
"we believe in the Holy Spirit…
and here’s the kicker:
"we believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church
“we ACKNOWLEDGE ONE BAPTISM for the remission of sins…”
only reason a person can be “re-baptized” is if he wasn’t a christian in the first place in the eyes of the church because the SPECIFIC FORMULA spoken by The Lord Himself was not used or it’s not considered a sacrament for the remission of original sin.
for where Peter is, there is the Church! The Lord said, “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.”
i’m glad you’ve opened your heart to the truth that it is through the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) that the unity of the Church is expressed and through the magesterium it is manifested by him. “Blessed are you Simon son of Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my Father in heaven. And so therefore, you are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church and I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven…and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.”
and Jesus left his Church with a command and promise: “Go therefore unto all nations baptizing them in the NAME, of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit…and know that I am with you always even until the end of time.”
the Church is not the work of human hands, although her members are human. it is the hand of God who built it on the faith of Peter, frail as his faith was. (he denied Jesus thrice, he was sinking while walking on water to go to Jesus!)
the Catholic Church has outlived other gods, civilizations, religions, schisms, persecutions, wars, conquerors, emperors and kings because of Jesus.
so let me end by saying, no matter how stupid, corrupt, scandalous, murderous, weak, or evil the pope maybe, and there have been many
; be assured that the Holy Spirit Himself preserves the Church’s unity, sanctity, universality and unbreakable continuity. because it’s been said before of the Catholic Church in derogatory terms: nothing this stupid and corrupt can last 2 weeks! and yet the Church has outlived the pharoahs, the emperors, conquerors and despots.
I pray for you and for others to find and be at peace in the Catholic Faith.
first of all, welcome to the Catholic Church.
i have been a reader of these forums but never had the imperative to actually bother and join, not to mention do the tedium of registering to join and make a post
. until i saw and was moved by your post.all christians should be shocked and horrified at re-baptism. for as long as anyone was validly baptized by the trinitarian formula, there should be no question.
"we believe in one God, the Father…
"we believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ…
"we believe in the Holy Spirit…
and here’s the kicker:
"we believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church
“we ACKNOWLEDGE ONE BAPTISM for the remission of sins…”
only reason a person can be “re-baptized” is if he wasn’t a christian in the first place in the eyes of the church because the SPECIFIC FORMULA spoken by The Lord Himself was not used or it’s not considered a sacrament for the remission of original sin.
for where Peter is, there is the Church! The Lord said, “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.”
i’m glad you’ve opened your heart to the truth that it is through the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) that the unity of the Church is expressed and through the magesterium it is manifested by him. “Blessed are you Simon son of Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my Father in heaven. And so therefore, you are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church and I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven…and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.”
and Jesus left his Church with a command and promise: “Go therefore unto all nations baptizing them in the NAME, of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit…and know that I am with you always even until the end of time.”
the Church is not the work of human hands, although her members are human. it is the hand of God who built it on the faith of Peter, frail as his faith was. (he denied Jesus thrice, he was sinking while walking on water to go to Jesus!)
the Catholic Church has outlived other gods, civilizations, religions, schisms, persecutions, wars, conquerors, emperors and kings because of Jesus.
so let me end by saying, no matter how stupid, corrupt, scandalous, murderous, weak, or evil the pope maybe, and there have been many
; be assured that the Holy Spirit Himself preserves the Church’s unity, sanctity, universality and unbreakable continuity. because it’s been said before of the Catholic Church in derogatory terms: nothing this stupid and corrupt can last 2 weeks! and yet the Church has outlived the pharoahs, the emperors, conquerors and despots.I pray for you and for others to find and be at peace in the Catholic Faith.
C
coptsoldier
Guest
Thankyou for such a lovely response. I officially entered into communion with rome one year ago. I absolutely love it.
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