Corporal punishment, tips on how to raise children

[28562]

It is a highly documented fact that the biggest factor regarding the ability of an adult to discipline a child is consistancy. Randomly swinging back and forth from one variety to another would probably be even less effective than consistant spankings would.

We are very consistent. No wild swingings here…it’s just that all the little foo foo feel good mamby pamby land discipline doesn’t always do the trick and our kids know that there is another punishment they are subject to if they don’t straighten up. It is like spanking is the atomic bomb so to speak…they don’t want to make us have to use it, but sometimes, due to their hardheadedness or the severity of the infraction, a spanking is the warranted discipline.

 

[28562]

There is a vast difference between a child accidentally running into the street when you were trying your best to avoid it and your claim that you teach two-year-olds “personal responsibility” by spanking them and you are perfectly assured that they will never do it again. Obviously, you admit you hold their hand, so you do know that they might do it again. Yes, we hold their hand. Sometimes we don’t. I am confident in the ability of my kids to listen to what we tell them to do. And, contrary to what you keep claiming, it is not JUST because of spanking.

And you are aware that two-year-olds are not capable of controling their impulses and could run into the street at any time if they aren’t being watched properly, whether you spanked them the last time or not. I have no reason to call the police. I have already said that I don’t believe you when you say you leave a toddler to play by the street alone and that you are confident that toddler will never cross the white line.
**Then don’t ride past my house when the weather is nice. You might be surprised to see 3 well behaved kids staying behind the green **line.

Are you physically incapable of seeing that there really might be one way to skin a cat that works much better than another? **The way I discipline works just fine. I don’t use just one type of discipline. We aren’t forced to pick just one! And I have admitted this from the very beginning of this thread. I recognize that different kids in my own family require different discipline to behave. Why do yall *think ***all we do is spank?

And do you really expect me to believe that a person who proudy admits that he spanks his kid is worried that people would accuse him of holding a child’s hand “too hard” in traffic? That was sarcasm…because now I have been accused of abuse and I am curious what is the next petty offense that will start to be blown out of proportion.
If a toddler is trying to get away from you in traffic, you don’t let go and it doesn’t matter if you break his fingers! A wrist cast is alot cheaper than a coffin!

I’d rather be able to say his name and stop him in his tracks than explain to DSS why I broke my kids hand. I don’t have to resort to such harsh physical violence to get compliance.

 

[FriendlyFace]

I’d rather be able to say his name and stop him in his tracks than explain to DSS why I broke my kids hand. I don’t have to resort to such harsh physical violence to get compliance.

Yeah, seriously. You’re better off spanking a kid than breaking his hand. I know my mom spanked me to keep me from running out into the street as a small child, but I don’t remember it. I would have remembered it is she’d broken my hand though.

 

[pollynova]

Here is something else I just thought of.

Let’s debunk the ‘we can’t hit adults’ myth.

When do kids deserve and get spankings? When they cross known boundaries and even after warnings, they are still non compliant and defiant.

Example–
All my kids know to not throw toys or play rough around the baby. This is a known rule. If it happens once, they will get a reminder and a warning. The next time it happens (within a certain amount of time), they are getting spanked. Period, end of story.

We can absolutely use physical force against adults when they cross known boundaries and remain non compliant and defiant.

Example–
Everyone knows not to speed. If you do, and you get pulled over, you must show the police officer your driver’s license and registration. If you refuse to do it, he is probably going to ask you to get out of the car. If you refuse to do that, he is going to forcefully remove you from the car. If you continue to not comply, you may find yourself on the wrong end of a beating, a taser, or a gun, depending on how seriously defiant you are.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is no different than spanking a child. The logic is easy, whether it is for kids or adults.

Rules broke=warning
If warning not heeded=physical force will be used to ensure compliance

Here is the difference.

1. Police are trained and go through continual training about when the use of force is justified. They also learn proper techniques for using force to minimize injury to a suspect.
2. Police do not use force as a punishment. It is used to subdue a suspect so they don’t harm others or themselves. Punishment for criminals is done through the court system.
3. Police officers are held accountable when they do use force. Was the force used excessive? What it justified? When we had a cop speak at our school, that every time he takes out a weapon, be it a gun, tazer, pepper spray, or a baton, he needs to file paperwork about it.

Now for parents.

1. Parents receive no specialize training in the use of force. It is just their best guess.
2. Few parents are held accountable when do cross the line. Since most parents don’t hit their children in public, there is no one to scrutinize whether they’ve crossed this so-called line between “spanking” and “abuse.” Children rarely will tell another adult in these cases because it’s ingrained in them that Mom and Dad can do no wrong. And of course there is fear. Children fear if they do tell, it will just make things worse. They fear no one will believe them, and all that is waiting for them is more hitting back home.
3. Using the child wandering into the road metaphor, yanking a toddler out of the road might cause them pain, but the pain was not intentional. If you could pick the child up gently and carry them to safety, you would, right? Now let’s say a cop is called because one person is attacking another. The attacker does not respond to the officer’s repeated verbal commands to stop. So the officer tackles the attacker and a struggle ensues. The cop punches the attacker, causing him extreme pain. The cop also uses a variety of holds to immobilize the attacker so he can be handcuffed and put into the back of the police car where he is no longer a danger to anyone. The cop doesn’t continue hit the attacker to “teach him a lesson.” Or at least he shouldn’t. And if he does, he is subject to punishment himself. (But police brutality is another thread.)

The point is that police do have the authority to use force, but not as a punishment. In America, we don’t use physical pain as a punishment for law breakers. (There is the death penalty of course, but again, that’s another thread.)

 

[pnewton]

Here is the difference.

There are differences pro and con. Parent love their children, for example. So, can we agree that there are differences and cease the argument that spanking is bad because we do not hit adults? We do not spank adults We can spank children. The differences that keep being pointed out by both sides mean that one can not use hitting an adult with spanking a child. You can not on one hand use the similarities to support not spanking and then the differences to support not spanking. Well, I guess it can be done, and has been done, but it does defy logic.

 

[Debora123]

Ok guys. I think people here need to stop “correcting” other members for the way they personally choose to discipline their own kids.

I think we all know that everyone here on this thread is a good, loving parent, who is definitely not guilty of any form of child abuse.

So let’s respect each others’ parenting decisions, shall we?

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

This last sentence is moot. Just because you say it is immoral does not mean it is.

Agreed, and you saying it is not immoral does not mean that it is not immoral. Hence the purpose of this conversation.

Unless of course I am arguing with Jesus and don’t even know it!

Jesus is not a direct participant in every such discussion, as you well know.

Why does it get to be immoral just because you say so?

It doesn’t.

I say it isn’t…why is your opinin more valid than mine?

You are entitled to your opinion, as I am entitled to mine. You believe that your opinion is more tenable than mine, I believe that my opinion is more tenable than yours. However, just because everyone is entitled to an opinion does not mean that all opinions are equal.

We look at claims, we examine the evidence, we reason together. This is, again, the reason why we discuss such things. I surely hope that you would agree on this point. You can dismiss that, of course, but it would undermine the reason for this discussion.

If you think the purpose is to inflict pain, then you have no clue what we are talking about here. The purpose is discipline–to stop or prevent a behavior.

No.

Hit child → inflict pain
Inflict pain → stop behavior

The end goal is some perceived benefit to behavior in the long-term future, but the immediate goal of hitting your child is to inflict pain. Without the pain, you believe, there would be no change in behavior.

Let’s look at an example for contrast, one that hitters bring up often: the injection analogy. A doctor injecting a child with a shot does not do so for the purpose of inflicting pain. He does so for the purpose of the child’s long-term health. If the doctor could inject the child in a painless manner, he would choose to do so, because the goal of medicine is to do no harm!

The hitter, on the other hand, would not make hitting painless, even if they could. Why? Because pain is the immediate purpose. Pain is integral - the child must be made to suffer.

I most certainly do understand the subject. And the subject is NOT child abuse, no matter how many times you call it such. You are correct on one thing though–we will never agree. If I have my way, we don’t have to because we can decide for ourselves.

You act as if this is per se good in and of itself, but surely you would not say so IF a child was being brutally beaten. Right? I pray so.

If you have your way, then you will be allowed to make my parenting decisions for me.

I wish we knew each other personally, so you would know how much of a laugh I got out of that.

I am not a CPS agent. I am an anarchist. I do not believe in the initiation of physical force. Therefore, I am not scheming to take your children away from you. I would defend them from you, of course, if they were in immediate and grave physical danger, or offer them help if they ran away because you were beating them to a pulp.

But other than those ludicrously extreme examples, you don’t have much of a reason to be concerned with me.

I find it interesting that you would be so worried. I guess you are used to people believing they have the right to use physical force against anyone they disagree with. What’s ironic is that *you *are more likely to use it against me for various reasons, than I against you.

If you want (name removed by moderator)ut in the raising of my kids, then we are going to expect some other contributions as well. When you start sending money to help with the food bill for them, you opinion will have more weight. I am going to go out on a limb and guess that I will never see a check from you…because you only want a say so when it is convenient for you…

It depends what you mean by (name removed by moderator)ut. I wish to persuade you to act in a certain way. There’s a thread about it, we’re talking about it, I offer my take like you offered yours. If you wish to escape my menacing presence, it wouldn’t be too hard… you can put me on your ignore list here on CAF, stop posting in this thread, or just stop responding to my posts. Any of those 3 things,that’s about all it would take.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Ok guys. I think people here need to stop “correcting” other members for the way they personally choose to discipline their own kids.

From your original post:

So, how do y’all feel about spanking?

If you didn’t want a debate about discipline methods then why did you start… a debate about discipline methods?

I think we all know that everyone here on this thread is a good, loving parent, who is definitely not guilty of any form of child abuse.

Yeah, no. I don’t think we know that at all.

However, I do think it is necessary for charity’s sake to assume that in each individual case, which is what you mean, right?

The word ‘abuse’ is tricky. Before we were married, I once called my wife ‘stupid’ in a heated moment of disagreement. Truthfully, I would consider that verbally ‘abusive’ and it is something that I have repented for and thankfully she has forgiven me.

Of course, there’s no comparing that to a pattern of daily verbal abuse, just as there is no comparing a smack on the behind to a caning.

As with many sins, there are wide variations in severity. There’s a difference between a white lie, for example, and a lie that sends thousands of people to their deaths. We must make distinctions between these two, and yet I see no problem in calling each of them a lie. Do you?

So let’s respect each others’ parenting decisions, shall we?

What do you mean by ‘respect’?

 

[Allegra]

Ok guys. I think people here need to stop “correcting” other members for the way they personally choose to discipline their own kids.

I think we all know that everyone here on this thread is a good, loving parent, who is definitely not guilty of any form of child abuse.

So let’s respect each others’ parenting decisions, shall we?

Aren’t you the one who started the thread in the first place? If you didn’t want people to discuss whether physical punishment was moral/acceptable/effective or not, then why did you start a thread asking for opinions on the matter? How do you expect posters to express whether they feel something is right or wrong without saying that it is right or wrong?

There’s also no reason to believe that a thread that is read by possibly thousands of strangers on the internet contains only “good, loving, non-abusive parents”. If that was the case, it would be really inconsistant with the parenting skills of the general population. I suppose it is possible, and there certainly is no way of knowing who is and who isn’t by reading their posts. But statistically speaking, it’s highly unlikely to be true. It might be more accurate to say that almost anyone on the thread wants to be a good, loving parent and isn’t intentionally trying to be abusive.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Aren’t you the one who started the thread in the first place? If you didn’t want people to discuss whether physical punishment was moral/acceptable/effective or not, then why did you start a thread asking for opinions on the matter? How do you expect posters to express whether they feel something is right or wrong without saying that it is right or wrong?

Agreed.

We need more precision as to what Deborah means by ‘respecting’ the views of others. That can mean many different things.

There’s also no reason to believe that a thread that is read by possibly thousands of strangers on the internet contains only “good, loving, non-abusive parents”. If that was the case, it would be really inconsistant with the parenting skills of the general population. I suppose it is possible, and there certainly is no way of knowing who is and who isn’t by reading their posts. But statistically speaking, it’s highly unlikely to be true. It might be more accurate to say that almost anyone on the thread wants to be a good, loving parent and isn’t intentionally trying to be abusive.

Agreed again.

There could very well be abusers among us, we must assume for charity’s sake that each individual is not, however.

 

[Debora123]

From your original post:

If you didn’t want a debate about discipline methods then why did you start… a debate about discipline methods?

Yeah, no. I don’t think we know that at all.

However, I do think it is necessary for charity’s sake to assume that in each individual case, which is what you mean, right?

The word ‘abuse’ is tricky. Before we were married, I once called my wife ‘stupid’ in a heated moment of disagreement. Truthfully, I would consider that verbally ‘abusive’ and it is something that I have repented for and thankfully she has forgiven me.

Of course, there’s no comparing that to a pattern of daily verbal abuse, just as there is no comparing a smack on the behind to a caning.

As with many sins, there are wide variations in severity. There’s a difference between a white lie, for example, and a lie that sends thousands of people to their deaths. We must make distinctions between these two, and yet I see no problem in calling each of them a lie. Do you?

What do you mean by ‘respect’?

You are correct, Veritas, I did want everyone’s thoughts/opinions… and thank you for sharing yours. You’ve made some good points.

My post was not aimed towards you. My post was aimed towards the few (2-3?) members here who have taken it to a personal level with other folks here… to the point of it being personally offensive to them as parents.

I’m all for reading up on the pros/cons of both sides from all of you. And all your posts have been 100% acceptable and helpful.

That’s what I mean by respect.

 

[Debora123]

Aren’t you the one who started the thread in the first place? If you didn’t want people to discuss whether physical punishment was moral/acceptable/effective or not, then why did you start a thread asking for opinions on the matter? How do you expect posters to express whether they feel something is right or wrong without saying that it is right or wrong?

There’s also no reason to believe that a thread that is read by possibly thousands of strangers on the internet contains only “good, loving, non-abusive parents”. If that was the case, it would be really inconsistant with the parenting skills of the general population. I suppose it is possible, and there certainly is no way of knowing who is and who isn’t by reading their posts. But statistically speaking, it’s highly unlikely to be true. It might be more accurate to say that almost anyone on the thread wants to be a good, loving parent and isn’t intentionally trying to be abusive.

I am sorry that I have confused so many of you with that post. Please read my response to Veritas above.

Just be objective and cool headed in stating your opinion, rather than attacking another member who disciplining his children differently than you would. That’s all.

 

[Debora123]

There could very well be abusers among us,** we must assume for charity’s sake that each individual is not, however.**

Precisely!

 

[Allegra]

Agreed again.

There could very well be abusers among us, we must assume for charity’s sake that each individual is not, however.

1. Spanking a child as a mode of discipline is not abusive.
2. There aren’t any posts in this thread that I feel constitute evidence of abuse.
3. HOWEVER, it is NOT charitable to assume that someone is not an abuser when there is evidence that they are and we are under no obligation give the benefit of the doubt when a helpless, innocent child could be at risk.

 

[Debora123]

1. Spanking a child as a mode of discipline is not abusive.
2. There aren’t any posts in this thread that I feel constitute evidence of abuse.
   .

Agreed and agreed.

1. HOWEVER, it is NOT charitable to assume that someone is not an abuser when there is evidence that they are and we are under no obligation give the benefit of the doubt when a helpless, innocent child could be at risk.

I don’t think there is evidence of anyone here who is like that. And by “here” I mean the members who have been having an active discussion here on this particular thread. I’m not referring to anyone who happens to come on here and read this.

 

[pnewton]

.

1. HOWEVER, it is NOT charitable to assume that someone is not an abuser when there is evidence that they are and we are under no obligation give the benefit of the doubt when a helpless, innocent child could be at risk.

The statement was made,“There could very well be abusers among us, we must assume for charity’s sake that each individual is not, however.”

THere is not evidence that anyone here is an abuser, so this limitation on charity need not apply.

 

[Serap]

I will continue to spank my son ( as a last resort) until he is 5. I am a loving mother and do not like being called “abusive” by you guys.

 

[28562]

Agreed and agreed.

I don’t think there is evidence of anyone here who is like that. And by “here” I mean the members who have been having an active discussion here on this particular thread. I’m not referring to anyone who happens to come on here and read this.

I would be interested in seeing what evidence their is that someone on this thread is a abusive.

Maybe it is where someone said “break a toddlers hand if you have to do so to keep them out of the street”?

 

[28562]

I wish to persuade you to act in a certain way.

There is no point in me spending my time responding to the rest of your post. At this point, we will have to agree to disagree, especially if your purpose is to persuade me to raise my kids differently than the very successful way I have done so far. We are at opposite ends of the spectrum and nobody is moving, no matter how long we discuss this. There is absolutely nothing wrong with my form of discipline. There is nothing wrong (I assume) with yours. I don’t abuse my kids, regardless of what your opinion is. If you think I do, I really couldn’t care less. I know me, I know my kids, you don’t. I haven’t tried to tell anyone how to raise their children, but that respect is a one way street apparently. I certainly haven’t told anyone they are abusive. I didn’t tell anyone that their kid might have a neurological disorder. As a matter of fact, I think I did a pretty good job of trying to see both sides without being judgmental…

But, this is the internet, and at the end of the day, none of you matter when I go home to my babies.

 

[styrgwillidar]

The situation you described is not normal. It honestly sounds like a child with some sort of disorder effecting their ability to control themselves or a parent that has completely lost control of the situation. (to the extent that the only way they feel they can get it back is through an act of physical aggression)

You probably won’t believe me, but I have never allowed a child to act that way toward me and the only children who have ever attempted it were suffering from a confirmed medical or mental disorder.

Well, you got me laughing very hard. You obviously don’t understand that some children are stubborn, strong willed and incredibly bright. Nothing wrong with them in terms of a disorder. You did pick up that fact we took her to a therapist/counselor?-- that did include a psychological evaluation. Just very opinionated from birth and has always thrived on confrontation. You’re on the right track with not getting into discussions or debates. Letting her turn the refusal to obey into a discussion of rationales, rights, responsibilities, prior history etc. etc. etc. For a confrontational person, yes that’s a reward. But you seem to think all kids get tired, that after ignoring them long enough they’ll stop. If you’re ignoring the tantrum, you’re also not able to direct them to do what they need to do. It’s actually a nice strategy for them to avoid doing things. As they follow you around screaming, what do you do? By not acting, you do give tacit approval to what they’re doing- that is, you’re allowing them to disrupt the entire household with their poor behavior. You can’t put them in their room without using force. If you’re not willing to lock the door from the outside, they’ll come right back out.

I’ve had folks accuse us, saying she must have picked that up from the adults around her. Nope. Nobody ever yelled around her, just her. I never raised my voice to her mother, and her mother never raised her voice to me. Any conflicts, adult discussions were always resolved well away from the kids.

You didn’t address the options the therapist gave us. Lock her in her room from the outside? Of course, I would have had to use force to carry/drag her there and manage to get the door closed without hurting her. Ever have a kid throw a tantrum for hours?

Go on family outings without her? Often, since that doesn’t seem to phase her?
As I’ve said before, the other two didn’t choose to act this way. The middle just wanted to please the parents (supposedly this is how all children are. The youngest responded to time outs.

Some folks just don’t realize kids are individuals and there is no law/rule/given that the will just automatically choose to obey if you do xxx. I’m sure that there are a lot of kid out there who wouldn’t be phased by spankings. I suspect my son is one, he has never seemed to be bothered by physical pain, I don’t think the threat of it would discourage him. Thankfully, he hated time-outs but respected our authority and would actually sit in them and apologize afterwards. Now, he on the other hand actually did have issues with OCD, insisting we get in the car in a particular, have his bedding in a specific way, stuff like that. That’s when he would throw tantrums-- but he was more ‘typical’ even with OCD. He would stop after being ignored. Less patience/persistence than his sister

I understand your statements, however, the thing that achieved compliance from her was a couple of spankings. After that, just letting her know she’d gotten to the point that 1, 2, 3… and compliance. And that lasted until her teen years when finally she cared about something enough to not even risk confrontation- electronics. Cell phone, iPod, computer time etc.

I would agree that the goal for the parent and first choice is not corporal punishment. However, that really ends up being the kids choice, not the parent.

She’s a wonderful girl, now a young woman. Completes her college degree this semester, has good friends. Nice thing about a kid who’s convinced of their own righteousness and infallibility is they’re immune to peer pressure. She hasn’t succumbed to the many of the temptations out there- drugs, promiscuity, alcohol that have ensnared many of her contemporaries.

Back to the OP. Get to know your child, use what works for them. Don’t think you’ll treat all your kids equally other than loving them all enough to care about them and do what it takes for them. It takes time and energy to discipline your child, and they know that. They understand that a parent setting limitations and boundaries care about them and loves them.