Covid Vaccine -aborted fetal cells

[LilyM]

What the Vatican said about earlier vaccines also applies to the current COVID Vaccine (thread title) as the link I posted also explains the morality of using such.

The Archbishop (as do we all, but more so the clergy as being our shepherds I would think) is doing as he should not only as a shepherd or even a priest but simply as a Catholic. We all should protest the use of cells taken from aborted babies now, as there isn’t any need.

Someone posted this link in another thread, but feel it is worth reposting as it lists Ethically Uncontroversial CoV-19 Vaccine Programs
An Ethics Assessment of COVID-19 Vaccine Programs - Charlotte Lozier Institute

People are getting ill and dying in their thousands every day. How can you say there is no need to get a vaccine and as quickly as possible?

And if such cells are being used, presumably it is because there is some advantage to doing so. Maybe it is quicker, maybe more cost effective, who knows. I am sure they are not using this method for fun

 

[CRV]

How can you say there is no need to get a vaccine and as quickly as possible?

Sorry? Exactly where did I say people should not get the vaccine.

I did say people should make known their objection to vaccines being made from these cell lines, as one company (thankfully) has made the decision to stop using them &/or phase them out. [Sanofi with their polio vaccine]. Which demonstrates that it is possible.

And if you look at that table within the document on Lozier Institute website you’ll see there are more listed in the ethically uncontroversial table.

We all should protest the use of cells taken from aborted babies now, as there isn’t any need.

there isn’t any need to use these cells as there are other ways to manufacture vaccines now. I did say we should protest the use of these cells.

Please read my post at #12 Covid Vaccine -aborted fetal cells - #12 by CRV

If you also read my other posts, I made it clear that Catholics can & may get these vaccines as the Vatican has said we may. (see the link in my post #5 above)

Nowhere have I said there is no need to get a vaccine or as quickly as possible.

The Vatican itself has said we should encourage the development of alternatives.

 

[CRV]

Moral Reflections on Vaccines Prepared from Cells Derived from Aborted Human Foetuses Pontifical Academy for Life.

Online text: “Moral Reflections on Vaccines Prepared from Cells Derived from Aborted Human Foetuses”, by the Pontifical Academy for Life & including links to relevant other documents.

Moral Conscience and Aborted Fetal Vaccines

OSV - Catholic experts weigh in on vaccine debate

 

[umamibella]

But as I understand it, the new vaccine is made out of those exact same cell lines from the 1960s as the past ones that the Vatican commented on. Whatever applies to those vaccines should apply to any new ones utilizing the cell lines.

Yes but that is not his point. His point is find a new way to make vaccines that does not use any aborted tissue from any cell lines.

 

[LilyM]

LilyM:

How can you say there is no need to get a vaccine and as quickly as possible?

Sorry? Exactly where did I say people should not get the vaccine.

I did say people should make known their objection to vaccines being made from these cell lines, as one company (thankfully) has made the decision to stop using them &/or phase them out. [Sanofi with their polio vaccine]. Which demonstrates that it is possible.

And if you look at that table within the document on Lozier Institute website you’ll see there are more listed in the ethically uncontroversial table.

We all should protest the use of cells taken from aborted babies now, as there isn’t any need.

there isn’t any need to use these cells as there are other ways to manufacture vaccines now. I did say we should protest the use of these cells.

Please read my post at #12 Covid Vaccine -aborted fetal cells - #12 by CRV

If you also read my other posts, I made it clear that Catholics can & may get these vaccines as the Vatican has said we may. (see the link in my post #5 above)

Nowhere have I said there is no need to get a vaccine or as quickly as possible.

The Vatican itself has said we should encourage the development of alternatives.

Of course we should protest and push for alternatives.

In the meantime, however, people are dying now. So yes, there is a need to have and use a vaccine, now.

And yes, scientists are using aborted fetal cells to produce vaccines - the question is why.

. . . . it is almost certainly because the use of these cells makes the process of producing the vaccine quicker, cheaper, easier, or better in some other way. . . . And thus, possibly, can get to work saving lives in a quicker, cheaper, easier, better way. . . .

 

[StudentMI]

Has it not occurred to you that it is almost certainly because the use of these cells makes the process of producing the vaccine quicker, cheaper, easier, or better in some other way? And thus, possibly, can get to work saving lives in a quicker, cheaper, easier, better way?

Still seems kind of sick knowing their deaths allowed us to save ourselves. Like using a holocaust to stave off a plague.

 

[LilyM]

LilyM:

Has it not occurred to you that it is almost certainly because the use of these cells makes the process of producing the vaccine quicker, cheaper, easier, or better in some other way? And thus, possibly, can get to work saving lives in a quicker, cheaper, easier, better way?

Still seems kind of sick knowing their deaths allowed us to save ourselves. Like using a holocaust to stave off a plague.

A Chilean plane crashed in the Andes (I think back in the 60s). People sadly died in the crash. Some of the survivors, not having enough food, chose to eat the remains of those who had died. No doubt it was a horrible thing to go through with a huge “ick” factor. Being that some of them were devout Catholics, the church felt it necessary to issue a public statement afterwards to reassure them that they had done nothing morally wrong, doubtless because some of those survivors would have felt awful about it.

My point - “seems” is not the same thing as “is” - when it comes to morality or otherwise.

 

[StudentMI]

My point - “seems” is not the same thing as “is” - when it comes to morality or otherwise.

Hey if the Church says it’s okay to get the vaccine so be it. Who am I to argue? Still, ick.

 

[umamibella]

This is the reason fetal tissue is used,
It is very doable to find another way.
https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-ingredients/fetal-tissues

 

[CRV]

And yes, scientists are using aborted fetal cells to produce vaccines - the question is why. Just for giggles? Just because they can? Just because someone threw a dart at a dart board or flipped a coin and that was the option it landed on?

Your sarcasm is completely unwarranted and definitely an uncharitable attack on myself.

Has it not occurred to you that it is almost certainly because the use of these cells makes the process of producing the vaccine quicker, cheaper, easier, or better in some other way? And thus, possibly, can get to work saving lives in a quicker, cheaper, easier, better way?

John 18:14 comes to mind.

 

[LilyM]

This is the reason fetal tissue is used,
It is very doable to find another way.
Vaccine Ingredients – Fetal Cells | Children's Hospital of Philadelphia

OK, so fetal cells can be used for longer, which would translates to a n easier and maybe cheaper production process. Which is important.

Where is your evidence that other methods are equally easy and cheap? Hint: if they were, they would be using them.already.

 

[StudentMI]

John 18:14 comes to mind.

I’m out of likes or else I’d like your post.

 

[LilyM]

CRV:

John 18:14 comes to mind.

I’m out of likes or else I’d like your post.

St John speaks of a deliberate sacrifice of a life. The only rrelevamce of that quote here would be if the mothers in this case were deliberately getting pregnant and having abortions so that the fetal.cells could.be obtained. Which is not even close to what actually happened.

 

[StudentMI]

St John speaks of a deliberate sacrifice of a life.

Abortion isn’t that?

 

[CRV]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[LilyM]

LilyM:

St John speaks of a deliberate sacrifice of a life.

Abortion isn’t that?

And the abortions would have happened anyway. Just like those plane crash victims in the Andes would have died anyway.

The fact of making use of body parts after death is not in and of itself an moral problem otherwise it would be immoral for anyone to be an organ donor.

Even the fact that the tissue came from children is not in and of itself an issue - parents can and do consent all the time to the body parts of their children being donated after death. And ir is perfectly moral for them to do so.

Of course the use of fetal cels is far from ideal or unproblematic, but it is not CAUSING abortions. These fetuses are NOT being sacrificed in order to create the vaccines, as you are trying to paint it.

 

[StudentMI]

as you are trying to paint it.

I’m not painting it any way. That’s a pretty uncharitable assumption and accusation.

 

[StudentMI]

Oh okay just tell me my intentions. Thanks.

 

[LilyM]

Oh okay just tell me my intentions. Thanks.

I’m telling you how it comes across. What exactly did you intend to say, if I may ask, in your own words?

 

[Elf01]

Even the fact that the tissue came from children is not in and of itself an issue - parents can and do consent all the time to the body parts of their children being donated after death. And ir is perfectly moral for them to do so.

My issue is with the fact that in the case of abortion the consent comes from the people who had the person murdered.