Covid Vaccine -aborted fetal cells

[umamibella]

Try to pay attention:

Please do not drag this thread down to a level where there is fighting and nasty remarks like this one you made.

 

[umamibella]

without an alternative,

There is an alternative. That is the point you are missing. It is being developed by several companies globally. One of them is in Australia, in Queensland, it uses molecular technology.

That is the entire point of the Archbishop’s statement. There are now alternatives to 60 year old technology.

 

[Kaliaa]

This website might be helpful in this discussion.

Children of God for Life

You can click on the tab for Vaccines and there is a listing for Covid-19 Vaccines. These are vaccines and treatments that are in development listed according to whether they are morally produced or used aborted fetal cells. For those who want to research deeper there are links to the documents provided by the companies in question.

This site has a lot of other information besides that for Covid-19 Vaccines.

 

[meltzerboy2]

Pardon my ignorance, but why does the age of the aborted stem cells make a difference?

 

[AlNg]

Suppose that your government were to mandate that you take the vaccine and you did not want to have aborted cells floating around in your body. Is it better to refuse the vaccine and go to jail or to go against your conscience and take the vaccine.

 

[umamibella]

Pardon my ignorance, but why does the age of the aborted stem cells make a difference?

It makes absolutely no difference to me. I am a black or white person, either it is or it isnt. I really cant answer for the Vatican.
I can say that their proviso ‘if no alternative is available’ would negate the use of these aborted stem cells when alternatives are available. Molecular clamping is one such example.

 

[umamibella]

Suppose that your government were to mandate that you take the vaccine and you did not want to have aborted cells floating around in your body. Is it better to refuse the vaccine and go to jail or to go against your conscience and take the vaccine.

We can object on religious grounds in my country.

 

[Anrakyr]

Pardon my ignorance, but why does the age of the aborted stem cells make a difference?

It doesn’t, the point is more ( and I’m taking extreme liberty with tone here to make a point) the children were not aborted for their cells. They were dead about to be tossed out anyway and one scientist said “I got a use for that.”

Basically that cell culture is a near infinite resource that’s readily available. It doesn’t require replacement so no else needs die and put to use something that would have been wasted otherwise.

People donate bodies to science all the time. This shouldn’t bother anyone.

Molecular clamping is one such example.

I haven’t looked into molecular clamping but if it isn’t cost effective or readily available then it’s not viable.

 

[umamibella]

I haven’t looked into molecular clamping but if it isn’t cost effective or readily available then it’s not viable.

I suggest you look into it and tell me, besides the Russian Covid vaccine, what Covid vaccine is readily available and set to go right now.
Passed all trials and now in use.

It doesn’t, the point is more ( and I’m taking extreme liberty with tone here to make a point) the children were not aborted for their cells. They were dead about to be tossed out anyway and one scientist said “I got a use for that.”

It does if a person is Catholic . Did you know of the trade in aborted fetuses today? Do you think it is ok?

‘tossed out’ is not a term a Catholic uses for a murdered unborn.

 

[LilyM]

meltzerboy2:

Pardon my ignorance, but why does the age of the aborted stem cells make a difference?

It makes absolutely no difference to me. I am a black or white person, either it is or it isnt. I really cant answer for the Vatican.
I can say that their proviso ‘if no alternative is available’ would negate the use of these aborted stem cells when alternatives are available. Molecular clamping is one such example.

And? Is there a vaccine for covid produced by molecular clamping currently available? No. For that matter, there is NO vaccine of any kind available for public use.

If not, and if a vaccine using aborted fetal cells is available sooner, then sorry but I have a lot of elderly and immuno-compromised family, friends, co-workers and clients. Until such time as an alrenative is actually on the shelves I am going to do my best by them and get vaccinated.

And until such time as those with actual expertise and authority (ie bioethicists and the Magostrrium) come to some sort of consensus that it is unacceptable for me to use vaccines of this sort even when nothing else is available, then I will use them.

Do I like it? Of course not, but I like the alternative a lot less, and morality is hardly based on what you or I like. WIil I do what I can to promote better alternatives? Of course.

You may be a black and white person, but the Church in many areas isn’t and can’t be. And I for one can understand and accept- and even appreciate - that richness and complexity.

 

[umamibella]

And? Is there a vaccine for covid produced by molecular clamping currently available? No. For that matter, there is NO vaccine of any kind available for public use.

Glad you asked that. It is a great question. One we know the answer to. As it is in the links I posted up thread.
Yes, there is at least one in its second trial, looking very promising and performing as well as the more traditional vaccines in trial stage.
If it passes third trial stage and all the safety checks, as with all these vaccines in development, it will be Australia’s go to vaccine.

You may be a black and white person, but the Church in many areas isn’t and can’t be. And I for one can understand and accept- and even appreciate - that richness and complexity.

I have discussed the development of the molecular clamping vaccine several times in this thread. Have you missed those posts? Can you also appreciate the richness and complexity of the development of newer and potentially more efficient technologies in the race to be the first to develop and sell a Covid vaccine. The money being thrown at being the first and most commercial is astronomical.

The Church is pretty clear in its statement
‘if there are no alternatives’ and that research should be directed towards development of alternatives.

And

If not, and if a vaccine using aborted fetal cells is available sooner, then sorry but I have a lot of elderly and immuno-compromised family, friends, co-workers and clients. Until such time as an alrenative is actually on the shelves I am going to do my best by them and get vaccinated.

We all have people, and/ or are in risk categories for Covid. It is being spread fastest at the moment through the young adult population.

This IS NOT a thread about anti vaxxers. Please keep that topic or any suggestion of it, away from this thread.

 

[Anrakyr]

It does if a person is Catholic.

Using dead bodies for the betterment of mankind shouldn’t bother you.

Did you know of the trade in aborted fetuses today?

Yes.

Do you think it is ok?

I don’t think people should profit from them.

Glad you asked that. It is a great question. One we know the answer to. As it is in the links I posted up thread.
Yes, there is at least one in its second trial, looking very promising and performing as well as the more traditional vaccines in trial stage.

So the answer is no, it’s not ready. You also haven’t answered how cost effective it is.

You also haven’t addressed the point I made earlier that fetus cells are not used directly in the production of a vaccine.

You take a culture of stem cells and study the effect of the virus on those cells. That establishes a base line.

There isn’t any fetal cells in a vaccine any more than there are thermometers in human bodies after a doctor takes your temperature before you are treated. It’s a measurement tool.

 

[umamibella]

Anrakyr at this point responding to you is a fruitless exercise.
Statements like this one and the tone of them tell me the productiveness of any further conversation is exhausted with you.

Using dead bodies for the betterment of mankind shouldn’t bother you.

Are you also lilyM?

 

[AlbMagno]

I think it should be taken into account the liberty one has to take one vaccine or the other.

In my case my government has already made a deal with Oxford and Astrazeneca and it seems that it is the only vaccine that will be commercially available, besides clinical trials.

So, for me to object to the vaccine would require to complain to the government, coordinate a lobby to do the same, and at that point things would get impractical and even imprudential, as we might be associated with anti-quarantine groups.

Thank God the Vatican recognizes that not all lay persons have the power to choose which vaccine to take, and has responded as such.

 

[umamibella]

Albmagno are you in Australia? Our government has done that too, but if the UQ trial is successful through its third phase, they are going with that as first choice. The Oxford trial is also at its third phase.

We can object on religious grounds , but there is no statement that any vaccine would be compulsory.

 

[AlbMagno]

No, I am in Argentina. We also have a local project for a vaccine, but I think it is still in Phase I. Again, it would be impractical to wait that long just to use another vaccine, specially if there were mass vaccinations and all work and study places would require you to be vaccined.

EDIT: Not to mention, the vaccine has to be approved by the respective regulatory agency, so, let’s say, if I wanted to buy privately the Russian vaccine because the local one is taking too long and I don’t want the British one, I still couldn’t do that.

 

[LilyM]

umamibella:

It does if a person is Catholic.

Using dead bodies for the betterment of mankind shouldn’t bother you.

Did you know of the trade in aborted fetuses today?

Yes.

Do you think it is ok?

I don’t think people should profit from them.

Glad you asked that. It is a great question. One we know the answer to. As it is in the links I posted up thread.
Yes, there is at least one in its second trial, looking very promising and performing as well as the more traditional vaccines in trial stage.

So the answer is no, it’s not ready. You also haven’t answered how cost effective it is.

You also haven’t addressed the point I made earlier that fetus cells are not used directly in the production of a vaccine.

You take a culture of stem cells and study the effect of the virus on those cells. That establishes a base line.

There isn’t any fetal cells in a vaccine any more than there are thermometers in human bodies after a doctor takes your temperature before you are treated. It’s a measurement tool.

I’m sorry, but how many promising trials of vaccinees for everything feom HIV to cancer have been reported over the years? and how few have actually come.to anything at all?

Every trial is promising according to the researchers conducting it, since they have to big ttheir work up to get funding. Often irresponsibly creating a lot of false hope, I might add.

“Availabke” means on the shelves ready for public use. And if vaccine from aborted cells is availavle in that way first, then we are permitted to use it. And I certainly will, unless and until I have access to something better.

 

[Anrakyr]

And if vaccine from aborted cells is availavle in that way first, then we are permitted to use it.

It wasn’t created from aborted cells any more then your cake has measuring cup in it.
(unless you are really clumsy)

Do you understand this?

 

[Anrakyr]

Are you also lilyM?

No, not that you have a way of telling.

 

[LilyM]

LilyM:

And if vaccine from aborted cells is availavle in that way first, then we are permitted to use it.

It wasn’t created from aborted cells any more then your cake has measuring cup in it.
(unless you are really clumsy)

Do you understand this?

Its just shorthand for “vaccine which has had cells from.aborted fetuses involved at any stage related to its testing, production or manifactire”. Happy now?